Dev Diary #21 - Custom Faiths and Pagan Reformation

[Myrkull]

I don't think it's fair to represent whatever the Maniots had as the same civic metropolitan cult based "Hellenic Paganism" that e.g. Roman emperors in game files get. Think critically- no written scripture , no organized priesthood, no major cultic sites. There could not realistically be that level of continuity of practice and orthodoxy. Whatever "Hellenic religion" the Maniots retained as folklore would have been modified to the point of being unrecognizable.

But actually we cannot assume that Maniot religion really varied from formal, ancient version. And even if it was different, in gameplay terms this religions still would be almost the same. So if chronicles say that there still were hellenistic pagans in IX century, and Mani castle is added, I see no reason why it shouldn't be pagan in game. I think it's far more reasonable to play historical, pagan Maniot character, then reviving this religion using delving into classic decision, or something similiar.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Ireland was christianized in 5th century, Picts accepted christianity a little later, in 6th century, welsh were already christianized. Of course traces of celtic paganism survived in folk christianity, but there are no historical records saying that in IX century still existed pagans practicing celtic paganism. So we can then assume that this religion was dead during game timeline.

Your dates for Ireland are... somewhat too early.
There were certainly areas that were still pagan in the 7th century, 200 years after you suggest.
If similar principles apply to other regions, you have the religion being *recently* dead, rather than "long dead".

 

[viola]

I mean, there were dead characters in CK2 that had a generic pagan religion to indicate Celtic beliefs before the Christianization of the British Isles. I assume that CK3 is going to have those characters in the history files as well, so what religion are you going to give them considering that I don't think there's going to be a generic pagan religion this time around?

By 867 Celtic Paganism would be only slightly more dead than Hellenism, which was quite the desiccated cadaver at the time. Hellenism seems to be confirmed "in the game" in the sense that there will be dead characters shown as having that religion and it will be technically possible for a player character to convert to it (although it's been referred to as something very hard to achieve). If Hellenism is in the game in that way, why not Celtic Paganism too? They're both equally dead in 867, why have one in but not the other?

 

[Silva]

Well, if we're going to argue about Mani, then I'd like to bring up Harran and the Mesopotamian/Semitic religion.

We have accounts from numerous Muslim scholars/chroniclers referring to some of the inhabitants of Harran in particular, and upper Mesopotamia in general, as retaining pagan/polytheistic practices well into the 11th century. In general, we have references to the ritual mourning of Tammuz by the rivers and in towns (especially in Mardin) being carried out in the month of the same name and still being carried out hrough this period and beyond. We have the old temple of Suen/Sin in Harran, called the 'E-hul-hul' or 'House of Joys' as an active site of worship, with Harran being considered widely known for it's 'temple of the moon god' even into this period of time. While the planetary cult, a long-time staple of Mesopotamian polytheism since before the Babylonians rose to prominence, adopted Greek names for some of the planets, they are still worshiped as the old Mesopotamian gods and with the same associations (The City of the Moon God: Religious Traditions of Harran by Tamara M. Green makes a particular note on how Mars remains functionally identical to Nergal, retaining all his associations both symbolic and temporal with the moon god Sin/Suen) as well as also making note of Arabic, and other Semitic language names for the planetary deity's. The continued worship of both Tammuz (Ta'uz) and Ishtar (Rabbat al-Thill being a direct equivalent, though given the largely Aramaic Sabians weren't speaking in Arabic like the source itself, it's somewhat doubtful they actually called her that, with most of the other female divinities being functional extensions of Ishtar as the Morning Star and Fertility...which was fairly common for her even in antiquity) is identified, and worship of the moon god Sin is still performed publicly in much the same way he was in older periods.

Of course, two complicating factors are that our almost exclusively Muslim sources for the Harranian religion and general Upper Mesopotamian pagan/polytheistic religious remnants refers to them universally as 'Sabian/Sabeans', which was both controversial academically at the time, as well as today in scholarship. The other, is that outside Harran they had no other prominent urban communities (though, the Harranian community was very prominent, with one Harranian Sabian being offered high-post in the region if he converted, which he turned down for greater freedom of worship for his group, the city was also an active hub of scholarship and translating of classic Greco-Roman texts, and hosted a Neoplatonist academy) and even within Harran, the specific composition of the population is difficult to determine beyond the presence both of the 'Sabians', Christians, and Muslims with little real information on which groups was a majority. The other complicating factor is that at some point around 1032/1033 AD, the E-hul-hul temple was destroyed during a revolt by rural Shi'a militias, and from there said urban community dwindles into non-existence, even as we still get mentions of their continued existence as a rural minority in the area for centuries after.

This all isn't being said to indicate that I feel they should have a presence beyond maybe some courtiers in whatever county Harran is in, and if religions are by barony and Harran is one, it perhaps being Mesopotamian, but I think it should definitely be present in the history files with the option to convert to it in the same manner one can do for Hellenism. I'd certainly be happy if they got more, but I feel it'd be suitable to give them that much.

That's not how dead religions work in CK3, they're fully fleshed out with doctrines and suchforth, they're just only found on historical characters, nobody who's currently alive. They have already confirmed all of these things;

* All 99 Faiths in the game are playable on launch

* This 99 number includes dead faiths such as hellenistic, and they confirmed this in response to a Q&A question which mentioned Celtic full stop and and Norse in later start dates.

* Religions with no living court members and no counties practicing that religion are considered "dead", which makes it difficult for them to start up again.

So, I was then asking for clarification on how one would play as one of these dead faiths, since they have already confirmed it will be possible at launch, and for how exactly that works for a player doing it (since the conditions are almost certainly easier to fullfill as a player intentionally doing it than the AI randomly stumbling onto it)

Well, yes, they have tenants and doctrines. But beyond those, they don't have any unique mechanics or events for Hellenism specifically, as the devs mentioned. They have exactly what the tenants and doctrines give, nothing more nothing less. Unless I'm recalling incorrectly. In which case you have my apologies.

 

[Elvenoob]

You can hardly call the dev diaries "obscure". Especially whilst posting in one.
On the one hand Zunism was fairly minor, on the other it was adopted by a major dynasty in China. It also manages to be alive at roughly the start of the game.

This isn't really the way to get Celtic paganism in. Far more productive would be to follow the same route that the Hellenic supporters did in CKII, and to work out what the tenets and so on for Celtic would be, and present that and a reasonable argument for it. It'd also need a god list.

If we've got enough information to do it now, then lets do it now. It may not make it into release, but with a bit of luck we can get it in an early patch. If we don't, then lets hold off until release, look at the doctrines and tenets, and suggest a version that would work.

I mean most of that would be fairly straightforward to do once we have the full list of tenets, doctrines etc. in the game... Hell if the game's structure supports multiple pagan faiths under one religion you could probably easily enough do irish and brythonic as seperate faiths under celtic. (Pictish would also deserve it's own thing but I don't know if we have enough info on the old pictish religion to actually do that.)

 

[Elvenoob]

Well, if we're going to argue about Mani, then I'd like to bring up Harran and the Mesopotamian/Semitic religion.

Well, yes, they have tenants and doctrines. But beyond those, they don't have any unique mechanics or events for Hellenism specifically, as the devs mentioned. They have exactly what the tenants and doctrines give, nothing more nothing less. Unless I'm recalling incorrectly. In which case you have my apologies.

It's much easier to add events and perhaps even unique mechanics in a mod than needing to work in an entire new faith. (Or multiple, realistically, given the differences between the different main groups of celts in the area.)

 

[LordofLight]

It would be possible, it just currently is not set up that way for balance reasons. Mods could enable that functionality if you desire it, though.

The only way I can see balancing a reformed faith having a holy site on its county of origin is if its like a tickbox you can select. But slaps on a heavy piety cost, or a modifier to the cost (like 2.5x).

So greatly beneficial, but incredibly "expensive".

 

[BrotherJonathan]

Looking good, although I am a little disappointed that Pagan reformation seems basically unchanged from CKII. Glad that heresies will actually have personalities, instead of just being slightly tweaked versions of the "mainstream" parent religion.

 

[Marchrainstar]

Do you plan to create some uniatism christian mechanic or uniat religions?

 

[elvain]

IIRC Beja culture was in one or two single holding counties in CK2, which is probably an underestimate for the 867 start date, but the geography is a little ambiguous.

I wouldn't rely on CK2 map as reference point or the paragon of historical accuracy. Having personally contributed to the late map overhauls of some regions, I can say that this was one of the very few regions which weren't included in the late-development map reworks. And even in the regions which were revised I do believe that CK3 map can be a lot superior to the one we have in CK2.

EDIT: Now before we talk about Beja being Pagan or Kushite, please note that I'm the last one to support presence of Ancient religions which didn't exist in the CK era.

But to have a "Kushite" religion throughout Eritrea? (...) but the idea that the majority of people were worshipping some modified Egyptian pantheon there at this time is a fantasy IMO. (...)To say the Beja had an exotic pantheon that in any way resembles ancient Egyptian beliefs or to call this "Kushitic" seems hardly credible.

If I may, I would draw your attention to one IMHO very important part of the revelation about the Kushitic religion.

Egyptian paganism is... kind of in? Kushitism (shown in the DD's screenshot) draws many elements and influences from it, including the inclusion of various Egyptian gods as part of its pantheon. However, it is not immediately recognizable as the Egyptian paganism that was popularized after Napoleon's Egyptian Campaign, since it focuses more on Upper Egypt/Nubia than Lower Egypt.

It may not seem credible to you, but it probably is closer to reality than what you think about the Beja. And please keep in mind that we are still talking about a game in which everybody needs to have some religion and culture tag. And although some people might draw that conclusion, having a character, which is Egyptian and Kushitic does not need to mean he followed the Ancient Egyptian cult. Which is what makes me more relaxed about these things than probably most of people arguing here about Celtic, Hellenic or other Paganisms in the game.

By the 9th century there is strong evidence this region had been superficially Christian for hundreds of years and was superficially Islamizing. I know that some Beja moved into Ethiopia/Eritrea (...) These were rural nomadic people with local folk beliefs plus a veneer of whatever religion was popular in powerful adjacent kingdoms which is no different than the state of much of rural Europe, North Africa and the Middle East at the time, and those regions get modeled as firmly Christian or Islamic. To say the Beja had an exotic pantheon that in any way resembles ancient Egyptian beliefs or to call this "Kushitic" seems hardly credible.

Some 6 years ago when I did my first research on the Beja for SWMH mod, reading the easily accessible sources, I would have agreed...and since I am against inclusion of anachronistic religions, I would probably post the same thing you did.
But in the last few years, I have studied the Beja far deeper, bought and read some otherwise not very accessible academic books and articles on them... and I have to say, that you are right only partially.

Yes, those of them who converted were described as very vague followers of either Christianity or Islam even to this day, because, as you correctly write, they were primarily nomadic people and these usually weren't the most faithfull followers of complex urban religions. Yet, I would draw a line between them and the rural population of Europe, which was exposed to the influences of Christianity for much longer and more intensively than these nomads who didn't really obey anybody.
Their leaders did convert to the religions that were the signs of power at the time.. and that at its apogee, the Axumite Christian kingdom has drawn their attention to Christianity and made them convert to that religion. But don't forget that in the 9th and 11th century and even so in the later centuries, Christianity in the region was no longer a sign of power. Not anymore. Axum has fallen, the new Abyssinian kingdoms were oriented more to the south, than towards the north, and furthemore were yet relatively weak to project their power against the Beja. The Nubian kingdoms bordering the Beja from west were more struggling to survive and although being probably respected, they were also repeatedly targets of Beja raids.

And considering that Arab georgraphers, as well as Christian sources describe the Zanafig (the most numerous Beja group of CK era) and other numerous southern Beja tribes all the way into the 16th century as pagans, it is hard to believe that these very vague followers of any religion would stay Christian if there was no Christian power to inspire this sort of conversion.
If you don't trust me, you can check the SWMH map mod today. Independently on my research, they themselves revised the original design and their Beja are also pagan.

Is it correct to call them Kushitic pagan? Well as you said, they really were not very religious. But historical records tell us that when the rulers of Upper Egypt destroyed Ancient temples frequented by some of the Beja who were in friendly terms with Egyptian rulers at the time, the Beja answered with raiding and plundering. Despite not being very religious, they certainly had those Ancient egyptian temples in high respect. Does it make them Kushitic? I can't say they were Ancient Egyptians. But it does draw some pretty good link... and enough to support the design described by the devs. So I find this much more credible than the assumptions I made before learning more about the Beja.

 

[MetalGearDaner]

I can see that you can choose to create a faith more "progressive", with divorce and gender equality. Will there be an option to allow same sex marriage?

 

[viola]

I can see that you can choose to create a faith more "progressive", with divorce and gender equality. Will there be an option to allow same sex marriage?

It would be both a strain on game mechanics and way outside of the time period.

Modern gender identities are exactly that: modern. In antiquity and in the Middle Ages various societies could be more or less accepting of same sex relations, but even when same sex relations were relatively accepted men and women were still expected to marry to produce offsprings (or use the marriage as a form of political agreement between two families).

 

[the glory of plain]

I can see that you can choose to create a faith more "progressive", with divorce and gender equality. Will there be an option to allow same sex marriage?

matrimony was more politics then romance at the time
but really hope to see some religion or laws could encourage marry for romance or no marriage at all
but it is very unlikely

 

[ranbir]

Ah damn, holy sites again. I just hope they aren't scattered all over the place that really bothered me in CK2. Sometimes I felt like I needed to expand super big just to get a chance to try the reformation. Nice it's only three now and I hope we get more sites to choose from. Also if in making our own religion would we not be or should we not be able to establish NEW holy site???

 

[classicist]

For example, Islam is used to polyamory and will happily accept a new Faith espousing it.

I'm sorry? I do hope this is a simple case of error or ignorance.

 

[viola]

I'm sorry? I do hope this is a simple case of error or ignorance.

I guess that was meant to say that Islam is used to polygamy and it will be easier to make heresies that feature multiple marriages with it.

 

[Prometheus_1]

Will be possible to restore the Pagan Religion of Hellenism?

 

[Silva]

Will be possible to restore the Pagan Religion of Hellenism?

The previous Dev Diary confirms that Hellenism is dead, but in the game, so you can convert to it at a penalty, presumably reform it (assuming it's not pre-reformed), and do as you will from there. It just won't be getting any unique mechanics or events beyond those provided for any religion with their tenants and doctrines.

 

[Andrei Untaru]

So far this feels like a smoother rehash of CK II.

No real new interesting mechanics yet, dissapointing

 

[Tschobo]

Looking good, although I am a little disappointed that Pagan reformation seems basically unchanged from CKII. Glad that heresies will actually have personalities, instead of just being slightly tweaked versions of the "mainstream" parent religion.

I would say it changed a bit. But it was already said that Holy Fury had some stuff of the new plans in it. The big change is that you have more choices in their doctrines and build up and that Moral Authority is no longer an issue (Gone are the times where you have to hope that Perm can hold their site against Cumania to reform the religion) and it is more piety based.

So far this feels like a smoother rehash of CK II.

No real new interesting mechanics yet, dissapointing

Have your read the diary? Could you create your own religion. Your own heresy. Reform the religions after the image you want. CK2 had only a barebone amount of choices with Holy Fury and this is much more.