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Dev Diary #21 - Custom Faiths and Pagan Reformation

Oh, hello there! Interested in becoming a heresiarch, are we? Or maybe you just want to organize your ancestor’s ancient spiritual traditions into a true reformed Faith, one that can stand up to the Crescent and Cross? Either way, you’ve come to the right place!

To start us off, I’m going to go into how the process of creating a new Faith or reforming a pagan one works. After that, there will be a teaser of some Tenets and Doctrines that you may be interested in picking for your newly-founded Faiths ;)

Faith Creation
Creating a new Faith is no easy task. Only the most pious rulers will be able to convince the clergy within their realm that they alone know the true will of the divine and, in doing so, take the first steps towards establishing a new Faith. However, with a little bit of devotion and a lot of time, you too will be able to reshape your Faith to suit your dynasty’s needs!

When looking at your own Faith’s tenets and doctrines, you will see a button at the bottom labeled ‘Create New Faith’. Clicking this button will open the Faith Creation window, which can be viewed at any time — even long before you have acquired the means to actually create a new Faith! This will allow you to play around with the different options and get a feel for what is possible, allowing you to set long-term goals for yourself.

DD_CreateAFaith_WM.png
[Screenshot of the Faith Creation window showing modified Tenets and Doctrines]

You can change every single Tenet and Doctrine of your hypothetical new Faith on this screen, though the list of what Tenets are available to pick varies from Religion to Religion. For example, Tenets based on the concept of Dharma are exclusive to Oriental Religions, whereas Monasticism was common practice and is thus available to everyone. This means when creating a new Faith, you must first ensure you are a member of the Religion that you want to base your new Faith off of.

Beyond simple availability, it is also easier for some Religions to accept certain Doctrines than others. For example, Islam is used to polyamory and will happily accept a new Faith espousing it. In contrast, a new Christian faith that claims God intended us to have multiple spouses will be met with a little more skepticism...

The way this plays out in CK3 is that each Tenet and Doctrine has a Piety cost associated with it. The further you deviate from your original Faith, the more Piety you will need in order to convince the priests that yes, you actually have had a vision from the divine and yes, you actually are enforcing their will and not just trying to make some weird personal sex cult.

DD_Cosanguinity_WM.png

[Screenshot of the scaling costs for the Cosanguinity Doctrine]

After you have made all the changes you want, you will be given the total amount of Piety your character needs in order to create their new Faith. This cost can get quite high, meaning that creating a new Faith or reforming a pagan one ends up being a life-long goal for most characters. It is highly recommended to attempt this with characters who have a Learning education and/or who have multiple Virtuous personality traits, and having the ability to go on frequent pilgrimages or donate gold & troops to holy causes helps too! Finally, timing your divine revelation to completely coincidentally occur when your Faith is suffering from low Fervor will make it much easier to get everyone to buy into your new canon (I will talk more about Fervor in our future Dev Diary on heresy outbreaks).

Once you are happy with your Tenets and Doctrines and have accumulated the necessary amount of Piety, you can officially convert to your new Faith. You and your capital county will adopt it immediately, but it won’t be easy for a ruler to convince their vassals and subjects to adopt this strange new Faith — they might be more inclined to stage an uprising and depose their mad king from the throne! After all, if you die before your new Faith gains a foothold in the world, there is a good chance your Faith will die with you…

Pagan Reformation
Pagan Faiths in Crusader Kings III start out with the special ‘Unreformed’ Doctrine.

This Doctrine grants notable bonuses to Tribal rulers early on, but it locks them into the Tribal government type and provides substantial Opinion penalties to any non-Tribal vassals they acquire. Since Tribal realms are notoriously unstable, successful chieftains will eventually want to look into either converting to a reformed religion so they can feudalize, or reforming their pagan religion into a true organized faith.

Like with Faith Creation, rulers must earn a substantial amount of Piety to organize their Faith’s disparate shamans into a coherent clergy. In addition, they must have at least 3 of their Faith’s holy sites located within their realm.

DD_VidilismHolySites_WM.png

[Screenshot showing 3 of the Vidilist Holy Sites]

Once you accomplish this, the process is quite similar to creating a new Faith of an existing reformed Religion. Your vassals may still be reluctant to convert to your newly reformed Faith, but because reformed Faiths gain a bonus to conversion against unreformed Faiths, you will have a much easier time convincing them to go along with your reformation than a heresiarch within in an existing Faith would have with making a new heresy.

DD_ReformationNew_WM.png

[Screenshot showing a Vidilist reformation event]

Tenet and Doctrine teaser

To finish this off, here are a few choice tenets and doctrines which you can pick when creating a new Faith in CK3. Many of these are also used by already existing Faiths, but some are only available to custom Faiths created by players. As you can see, there is a lot of variety in the kinds of custom Faiths you can create — ultimately every kind of playstyle should have some set of Tenets and Doctrines to support it!

DD_Tenet_Showcase_WM.png
[Screenshot of the Tenets Warmonger, Human Sacrifice, Ritual Cannibalism, Christian Syncretism, Dharmic Pacifism, Carnal Exaltation, Divine Marriage, Sacred Childbirth, and the Doctrines Pluralism and Fundamentalist]

That is all I have for you this week, but join us next time as my colleague @Heptopus talks about the diversity across the world in CK3 and the many different ways you can tailor the game experience to match your personal preferences!
 
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With female domination, will there be polyandrous marriages?
 
Christendom (not to copy the boring Dan Brown movies) but with a cult that believes that while Jesus is the prophet, Maria had, as mother of him, the real connection with god etc,
If they're thinking of Jesus as a prophet, that's not exactly Christian! Again, Messiah-dom is a totally different thing. (I keep seeing this pop up...) In fact, other than the continuation of the Cult of Isis in the Roman army, the only reason Mary was treated as at all special was precisely because of Jesus's divinity.
 
What happens if a Feudal ruler becomes an unreformed Pagan? Do they get the 'wrong holding type' penalty until they can conquer tribal land and give their original castle away?

You cannot form a Faith that has identical Tenets/Doctrines to an already existing one.
Does this mean that you can effectively block an event-spawned heresy from happening by creating a faith with their exact tenets and doctrines? Has anyone tried that yet? Seems like something that could cause a crash, haha.

The AI does not use this feature, and will only spawn historical heresies like Lollardy and Waldensianism. Only players can form historically inaccurate heresies.
Could this be added as a Game Rule at some point, similar to the non-historical mode in HOI4? It would be a big ole mess, I'm sure, but if it's a mess we can opt into, I think it could be fun.
 
Will there be gay marriage in this gay? Since you can customize everything it only seems fitting....
According to discussion on last week's DD, you can have full toleration for same-sex relationships, but same-sex marriage is unavailable due to the constraints of the game engine. I made a proposal for an alternative approach that could enable this and other things, but even if the devs like it (and I don't know that they do) it's almost certainly too late in the development cycle for such a thing to be in the base release. Maybe for a DLC?

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Clicking this button will open the Faith Creation window, which can be viewed at any time — even long before you have acquired the means to actually create a new Faith! This will allow you to play around with the different options and get a feel for what is possible, allowing you to set long-term goals for yourself.

I love this. I can already see myself spending a ton of time in this menu to build out the tenets and doctrines I'm looking for in a particular playthrough so I know exactly how much Piety a future dynastic messiah will need to accrue.

The way this plays out in CK3 is that each Tenet and Doctrine has a Piety cost associated with it. The further you deviate from your original Faith, the more Piety you will need in order to convince the priests that yes, you actually have had a vision from the divine and yes, you actually are enforcing their will and not just trying to make some weird personal sex cult.

I am still incredibly curious how this interacts with Faith Hostility. If I make a few minor modifications to my branch of Sunnism, are all the other Sunnis around me going to hate my guts or just be somewhat annoyed? It seems to me like closer tenets and doctrines should lead to relatively low Faith Hostility, but that wasn't always the way it went historically. Very excited to learn more about this.

(I will talk more about Fervor in our future Dev Diary on heresy outbreaks).

Really glad to see that Fervor seems to be an entirely new mechanic and is not at all related to Moral Authority (which seems to have been replaced with Holy Site bonuses).

As you can see, there is a lot of variety in the kinds of custom Faiths you can create — ultimately every kind of playstyle should have some set of Tenets and Doctrines to support it!

And this is why I'm 100000% more interested in forming my own Faith than I was in CK2. While it isn't going to be something that can be done lightly, this system really opens up a whole new aspect of the game. I think I tried to form my own religion once or twice in my entire time playing CK2, but this time it's something that should at least be considered during every playthrough. I'm already dreaming of an Irish Catholic heresy (Hibernian Christianity perhaps?) that I spread through the British Isles (and eventually the Continent).

Holy sites will be inherited from the parent Faith.
It would be possible, it just currently is not set up that way for balance reasons. Mods could enable that functionality if you desire it, though.

I understand this thought process, but I would love the ability to swap out one Holy Site when creating a Faith. My Hibernian Christians would probably care a lot more about a pilgrimage to Dublin or wherever the founding city of my religion is than, say, Antioch. I get that might have some balance issues so I totally understand not having it at launch, but if you can figure out a way to do it without unbalancing things I think it would be a great addition.

As a temporal head you can direct your faith's Great Holy Wars, choosing both the target and personally keeping all of the land after the war.
Spiritual heads cannot be played by players, but will launch undirected Great Holy Wars (similar to crusades) and can grant gold and claims to pious followers.

It seems obvious that, as a temporal ruler, being your own religious head will be massively advantageous compared to having a separate spiritual head. I'm guessing this feature will be quite expensive Piety-wise if converting from a Faith that doesn't already have it, considering how powerful it can potentially be. Would it also have an effect on Faith Hostility? (no, I'm not going to stop asking about Faith Hostility until we get that dev diary!)

3.) The codebase can support this, but there will not be any in-game content for this on release. We plan on adding events/mechanics around this in the future (mods, of course, will also have free reign to do whatever they want with this.)

As I said last week, this would be an incredible opportunity for roleplay. A bunch of religious and (maybe) temporal rulers meeting to hash out new doctrines? I'm imagining there could be a tone of intrigue and horse-trading related to getting other members of the council to vote as you want, like your own Council but with Faith-wide ramifications. And of course, if the Council doesn't go your way, maybe this could lead to a natural opportunity (aka somewhat of a Piety price discount) on creating a heresy that holds to the specific tenets you were arguing for.

Vassal willingness to convert is based on Opinion, difference in Learning score, and their current Faith's Fervor.

And I'm guessing that if you convert to a Faith vastly different from your vassals, there's going to be a massive Opinion penalty that will make convincing them harder. I just... want to know how Faith Hosti

Not at launch, unfortunately. That is something we want to expand on in future patches.

This Is definitely something that concerns me, not in relation to new Faith (although that would be awesome) but in relation to existing ones. How do Religious Heads and Holy Sites work for Faiths that are essentially schools of thought (like the Muslim divisions within Sunni) who should be able to share them? It doesn't make sense to me that if Maturidi Sunnis control Mecca and Jerusalem, Ash'ari Sunnis wouldn't get the bonus. I love the overall diversity of religion, but I don't want Sunnis warring against other Sunnis to control Holy Sites when they're going to need all the help they can get against the Catholics. Obviously they should war with each other over land/power, but on a fundamental level they're the same religion and sect and should be able to band together in the face of religious invasion.

The prophet perk reduces the Piety cost of creating a new Faith or reforming a pagan Faith by 50%.

Well that's going to be helpful!
 
Do tenets affect uprisings? E.g. if a county is controlled by a character of another faith, does the county's faith's tenets affect likelihood of peasant/national uprisings and whether these uprisings will have a religious component?
 
The further you deviate from your original Faith, the more Piety you will need in order to convince the priests that yes, you actually have had a vision from the divine and yes, you actually are enforcing their will and not just trying to make some weird personal sex cult.

This must be one of the best sentences i have read on a DD :D
And how can that traitorous infidel vassals compare our holy faith with a weird personal sex cult? Blasphemy!!! :p
 
In addition, they must have at least 3 of their Faith’s holy sites located within their realm.
Really disappointed on this. If we still have holy site mechanics, it should help sure, but not be a hard requirement. Hope it is at least moddable because it is going to be something I'll do day 1 for sure. Make it have 10-20% piety cost increase over each missed HS and maybe on reverse 5% reduction on any over 3.

Point is that hard requirement on having holy sites forces early game to be same every time. I play almost exclusively pagans in CK2 so I know how samey every start is. If I carve huge powerful empire far away from my original lands, for sure I should be able to reform.

Make it harder without holy sites, not impossible.
 
Can we give our faith/cult a description?

Will it be possible to create groups of people like a scholar group of like minded people? Ones where people will not consider you hostile but where you get bonuses from .
 
1- So what we are creating is a new heresy, right? For example I am Catholic and create my own faith, since it is still under the religion of Christianity it is a heresy, right?
2- Can I create a catholic heresy that has a female-only clergy?
3- Can I create a new Faith that is not a heresy, but a schism, like the Orthodox and Catholic Schism?
4- Is it possible to create a new faith that still recognizes the Old Head of Faith(like the Pope) as the head of faith. Making my new Faith more like a new Rite, just like Celtic Christianity and the Maronites.
5- If the AI reform a pagan Faith and I convert to it, can I create a new heresy based on it?
6- Lets say I created a new Faith, that is a heresy of the Catholic one. Can I convert to, say, Orthodox and also make a new Faith with another character? What about converting to Hinduism/Paganism and making a new Faith there, after making one on the Christian Religion?
7- Will there be Councils on future patchs or DLCs that deal with opportunity to change you Faith without schisming away/making a heresy? Like changing the tenets/doctrines of Catholicism ?
8- Will it be possible to choose the titles of priests and other religious authorities? Say I want to make a Catholic influenced Norse, can I choose the title of the head of Faith, its bishops and the like?
9- Can we edit the description of this new Faith? Like Catholicism has a description in game, will we be able to edit the description of our Faith too?
10- If Councils and the like are added, will we be able to edit the description of the Faith too, to reflect the fact that it has changed?
11- If I created, say, a Catholic-influenced Norse Faith with Christian Syncretism, would this new faith be part of the Christian or the Pagan Religion?
12- Will there be events that enable "union" between Faiths, such as, for example, the Council of Lyons and Union between Orthodox and Catholic Churches ?
13- Just as there is "Christian Syncretism" will "there be Pagan/Oriental Syncretism"
14- Will there be a Game Rule that disables Pagan Reformation and another that disables Faith/Heresy creation, or will they be combined in two? Say I want to allow Faith/Heresy creation but not Pagan Reformation or the opposite, will this be allowed?
15- Is the AI allowed to do Pagan Reformation, or will there be a Game Rule for that? What about Faith creation?
 
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As a player you will not have the ability to directly edit the 'god list', though mods do have the ability to change or add them when editing Faiths.
Not directly, but does it change due to your other choices? I remember a Christian heresy that did not consider Lucifer to be evil. If one created a Christian heresy that for example made deception holy, might it make Lucifer not evil?
 
4.) Two pagan faiths start with Human Sacrifice. You've guessed one of them ;)
Aztecs being the other, of course :D

4.) Two pagan faiths start with Human Sacrifice. You've guessed one of them ;)
Sunset Invasion confirmed!
Not sure if that's what they meant, but from my reading about African Sahel, I remember that one quite important faith in the Sahel used human sacrifices... which makes me hope that they will be the other :)
 
I know this may seem an unpopular opinion, but I hope that there will be a Sunset Invasion DLC in the future. Its fun and honestly hilarious. Just add a game rule that disables it for those that have the DLC but don't want to play with it in certain games. The events of the DLC are pure nightmare fuel, and make good material for a AAR.
 
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They previously said that everything related to custom heresies will be player only. AI will only tend to create historically accurate heresies.
Thank goodness.
 
Sad to see that there won't be any dynamically arising ahistorical heresies. Having an occasional possible event at low fervor where a new messiah springs up might be fun.
 
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Polyamory? I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Polyamory refers to open relations and "polyamorous religion" would be devoid of marriages, while Islam discourages polyamorous activities. You likely meant to use "polygyny".

Furthermore, polyamory is wrong.

One shouldn't mix Greek and Latin roots. It should be polyphilia, or multiamory :p

I know this may seem an unpopular opinion, but I hope that there will be a Sunset Invasion DLC in the future. Its fun and honestly hilarious. Just add a game rule that disables it for those that have the DLC but don't want to play with it in certain games. The events of the DLC are pure nightmare fuel, and make good material for a AAR.

I wholeheartedly agree. Sunset invasion was fun in the same way that the systems shown in this DD promise to be fun. I get that sometimes people want to play a historically plausible run, but sometimes I'm in the mood for exactly the kind of goof troop clown fiesta that these systems enable.