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Dev Diary #21 - Custom Faiths and Pagan Reformation

Oh, hello there! Interested in becoming a heresiarch, are we? Or maybe you just want to organize your ancestor’s ancient spiritual traditions into a true reformed Faith, one that can stand up to the Crescent and Cross? Either way, you’ve come to the right place!

To start us off, I’m going to go into how the process of creating a new Faith or reforming a pagan one works. After that, there will be a teaser of some Tenets and Doctrines that you may be interested in picking for your newly-founded Faiths ;)

Faith Creation
Creating a new Faith is no easy task. Only the most pious rulers will be able to convince the clergy within their realm that they alone know the true will of the divine and, in doing so, take the first steps towards establishing a new Faith. However, with a little bit of devotion and a lot of time, you too will be able to reshape your Faith to suit your dynasty’s needs!

When looking at your own Faith’s tenets and doctrines, you will see a button at the bottom labeled ‘Create New Faith’. Clicking this button will open the Faith Creation window, which can be viewed at any time — even long before you have acquired the means to actually create a new Faith! This will allow you to play around with the different options and get a feel for what is possible, allowing you to set long-term goals for yourself.

DD_CreateAFaith_WM.png
[Screenshot of the Faith Creation window showing modified Tenets and Doctrines]

You can change every single Tenet and Doctrine of your hypothetical new Faith on this screen, though the list of what Tenets are available to pick varies from Religion to Religion. For example, Tenets based on the concept of Dharma are exclusive to Oriental Religions, whereas Monasticism was common practice and is thus available to everyone. This means when creating a new Faith, you must first ensure you are a member of the Religion that you want to base your new Faith off of.

Beyond simple availability, it is also easier for some Religions to accept certain Doctrines than others. For example, Islam is used to polyamory and will happily accept a new Faith espousing it. In contrast, a new Christian faith that claims God intended us to have multiple spouses will be met with a little more skepticism...

The way this plays out in CK3 is that each Tenet and Doctrine has a Piety cost associated with it. The further you deviate from your original Faith, the more Piety you will need in order to convince the priests that yes, you actually have had a vision from the divine and yes, you actually are enforcing their will and not just trying to make some weird personal sex cult.

DD_Cosanguinity_WM.png

[Screenshot of the scaling costs for the Cosanguinity Doctrine]

After you have made all the changes you want, you will be given the total amount of Piety your character needs in order to create their new Faith. This cost can get quite high, meaning that creating a new Faith or reforming a pagan one ends up being a life-long goal for most characters. It is highly recommended to attempt this with characters who have a Learning education and/or who have multiple Virtuous personality traits, and having the ability to go on frequent pilgrimages or donate gold & troops to holy causes helps too! Finally, timing your divine revelation to completely coincidentally occur when your Faith is suffering from low Fervor will make it much easier to get everyone to buy into your new canon (I will talk more about Fervor in our future Dev Diary on heresy outbreaks).

Once you are happy with your Tenets and Doctrines and have accumulated the necessary amount of Piety, you can officially convert to your new Faith. You and your capital county will adopt it immediately, but it won’t be easy for a ruler to convince their vassals and subjects to adopt this strange new Faith — they might be more inclined to stage an uprising and depose their mad king from the throne! After all, if you die before your new Faith gains a foothold in the world, there is a good chance your Faith will die with you…

Pagan Reformation
Pagan Faiths in Crusader Kings III start out with the special ‘Unreformed’ Doctrine.

This Doctrine grants notable bonuses to Tribal rulers early on, but it locks them into the Tribal government type and provides substantial Opinion penalties to any non-Tribal vassals they acquire. Since Tribal realms are notoriously unstable, successful chieftains will eventually want to look into either converting to a reformed religion so they can feudalize, or reforming their pagan religion into a true organized faith.

Like with Faith Creation, rulers must earn a substantial amount of Piety to organize their Faith’s disparate shamans into a coherent clergy. In addition, they must have at least 3 of their Faith’s holy sites located within their realm.

DD_VidilismHolySites_WM.png

[Screenshot showing 3 of the Vidilist Holy Sites]

Once you accomplish this, the process is quite similar to creating a new Faith of an existing reformed Religion. Your vassals may still be reluctant to convert to your newly reformed Faith, but because reformed Faiths gain a bonus to conversion against unreformed Faiths, you will have a much easier time convincing them to go along with your reformation than a heresiarch within in an existing Faith would have with making a new heresy.

DD_ReformationNew_WM.png

[Screenshot showing a Vidilist reformation event]

Tenet and Doctrine teaser

To finish this off, here are a few choice tenets and doctrines which you can pick when creating a new Faith in CK3. Many of these are also used by already existing Faiths, but some are only available to custom Faiths created by players. As you can see, there is a lot of variety in the kinds of custom Faiths you can create — ultimately every kind of playstyle should have some set of Tenets and Doctrines to support it!

DD_Tenet_Showcase_WM.png
[Screenshot of the Tenets Warmonger, Human Sacrifice, Ritual Cannibalism, Christian Syncretism, Dharmic Pacifism, Carnal Exaltation, Divine Marriage, Sacred Childbirth, and the Doctrines Pluralism and Fundamentalist]

That is all I have for you this week, but join us next time as my colleague @Heptopus talks about the diversity across the world in CK3 and the many different ways you can tailor the game experience to match your personal preferences!
 
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I now find myself wondering if there's a religious self-mortification doctrine. (It has to do with that previous post about recreating that fictional Lovecraftian Christian heresy -- Cultist Simulator all about being a horror game.) It's pretty grim stuff, not a dinner table topic but at the same token, you've got the flagellants among the numerous historical example of such.
 
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hope different faith penalty will be determined by how the two faith are
not just the exactly same penalty with every heathen or heresy

Some of the most vicious religious feuds have been between people who nominally hold almost all the same religious beliefs. That's why CK2 allowed holy war between e.g. Orthodoxy and Iconoclasm (which differed from Orthodoxy on exactly one issue, albeit a high profile one) but not Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Thomas Aquinas considered heresy to be worse than disbelief.
 
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Expanding on different faith opinions, going from most to least accepted. As you move in one direction the previous stipulations remain in effect unless otherwise stated:
  • In communion / Fellows of the faith: The two faiths treat each other as if they were the same faith. They will defend one another in religious wars.
  • Accepted: The two faiths have no religious penalties, but do not defend one another in religious wars. Religions cannot attempt to convert one another.
  • Tolerated: Religious difference penalties are low. Rulers will not actively try to convert these subjects unless zealous. No penalties for using them as advisers or landing them. Cannot declare religious wars against them. Cannot raid unless culture/religion/government permits raiding same religion.
  • Misguided: Moderate religious difference penalties. Rulers will actively try to convert these subjects. Cannot revoke their territory on religious grounds. Can wage religious wars against them, but these will subjugate instead of conquering their lands. Can only be raided if culture/religion/government permits raiding other religions.
  • Hostile: Moderate religious difference penalties. Adviser appointments and even being in the court can cause issues. Granting lands to them or pressing their claims costs piety. Lands can be revoked on religious grounds. Religious wars waged against them will conquer lands. Can only be raided if culture/religion/government permits raiding other religions.
  • Evil: Major religious difference penalties. Cannot appoint them as advisers, grant land to them, or press their claims. May always raid them.
As an example, Catholics:
  • Most branches of Christianity are considered tolerated.
  • Orthodox in the earlier start date should start as accepted, but switches to tolerated after the great schism.
  • Maronite, as was discussed in Dev Diary #20, would start as tolerated but switch to 'in communion' after the event where they recognize the pope as the head of their church.
  • Adherents to Catholic heresies are considered traitors to the church and are hostile (unless they stick around for extended periods of time and become 'mainstream' faiths, in which case they can become tolerated, but may also remain hostile depending on circumstances).
  • Jewish faiths are misguided.
  • Islamic faiths are hostile.
  • The rest of the faiths in the game are evil.
 
Expanding on different faith opinions, going from most to least accepted. As you move in one direction the previous stipulations remain in effect unless otherwise stated:
  • In communion / Fellows of the faith: The two faiths treat each other as if they were the same faith. They will defend one another in religious wars.
  • Accepted: The two faiths have no religious penalties, but do not defend one another in religious wars. Religions cannot attempt to convert one another.
  • Tolerated: Religious difference penalties are low. Rulers will not actively try to convert these subjects unless zealous. No penalties for using them as advisers or landing them. Cannot declare religious wars against them. Cannot raid unless culture/religion/government permits raiding same religion.
  • Misguided: Moderate religious difference penalties. Rulers will actively try to convert these subjects. Cannot revoke their territory on religious grounds. Can wage religious wars against them, but these will subjugate instead of conquering their lands. Can only be raided if culture/religion/government permits raiding other religions.
  • Hostile: Moderate religious difference penalties. Adviser appointments and even being in the court can cause issues. Granting lands to them or pressing their claims costs piety. Lands can be revoked on religious grounds. Religious wars waged against them will conquer lands. Can only be raided if culture/religion/government permits raiding other religions.
  • Evil: Major religious difference penalties. Cannot appoint them as advisers, grant land to them, or press their claims. May always raid them.
As an example, Catholics:
  • Most branches of Christianity are considered tolerated.
  • Orthodox in the earlier start date should start as accepted, but switches to tolerated after the great schism.
  • Maronite, as was discussed in Dev Diary #20, would start as tolerated but switch to 'in communion' after the event where they recognize the pope as the head of their church.
  • Adherents to Catholic heresies are considered traitors to the church and are hostile (unless they stick around for extended periods of time and become 'mainstream' faiths, in which case they can become tolerated, but may also remain hostile depending on circumstances).
  • Jewish faiths are misguided.
  • Islamic faiths are hostile.
  • The rest of the faiths in the game are evil.

I think you offer a realistic perspective on how a religion might view others, through your Roman Catholic example. Those considered heresies, I expect to receive more disdain than other established Christian churches, almost around as much as the distance between Catholicism and Islam. I wonder if they will be placed at the same exact level as Islamic branches, with regards to relationships, or will Catholic heresies be regarded a little more closely to the status that Judaism receives? It is also interesting to consider the Roman Catholic Church slightly warming up in relationship to those heresies that had been around for a long enough time, so that they are not received as so hostile and alien a faith, compared to something pertaining to Islam? It will be interesting to realize what the Islamic perspective for Crusader Kings III is going to be represented as, as well. I think that Pagan religions, those outside of the bounds of Abraham's legacy, will be seen as worse than heresies, for example, but how much worse can the relations become? Would opinion penalties of -20 or -25 be too much, for instance?
 
What the hell is "Vidilism"? I know that judging by the screenshots it's Baltic paganism but why it isn't named Romuva?
Also I think that (except the "Hellenism" and "Druidism" terms which were actually historically used in ancient times) generic names like "Norse paganism" or "Baltic paganism" would fit better rather than modern ones like "Asatru" or straight made up like "Vidilism".
 
Looks brilliant. would be nice to see a political requirement for making a faith, not just piety.
heresies in the middle ages were always about politics not piety
 
What the hell is "Vidilism"? I know that judging by the screenshots it's Baltic paganism but why it isn't named Romuva?
Also I think that (except the "Hellenism" and "Druidism" terms which were actually historically used in ancient times) generic names like "Norse paganism" or "Baltic paganism" would fit better rather than modern ones like "Asatru" or straight made up like "Vidilism".
I assume, romuva would be the religion and vidilism one of the faiths? going by the format talked about last diary ?
 
What the hell is "Vidilism"? I know that judging by the screenshots it's Baltic paganism but why it isn't named Romuva?
Also I think that (except the "Hellenism" and "Druidism" terms which were actually historically used in ancient times) generic names like "Norse paganism" or "Baltic paganism" would fit better rather than modern ones like "Asatru" or straight made up like "Vidilism".


This may or may not be what it represents, but I had just assumed that Vidilism was supposed to be a developer's created faith, branched off in heresy from Romuva, due to the name of the god Dievas.
 
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This is incredibly in-depth. Religion is certainly what I'm most excited about in ck3.

A bit bummed the AI will never create heresey's though. Wouldn't mind it being something incredibly rare, like can only happen if a genius, cyncial, mastermind theologian meets the piety requirements is there a chance it happens level rare.
 
This is incredibly in-depth. Religion is certainly what I'm most excited about in ck3.

A bit bummed the AI will never create heresey's though. Wouldn't mind it being something incredibly rare, like can only happen if a genius, cyncial, mastermind theologian meets the piety requirements is there a chance it happens level rare.

I'm disappointed as well. Hopefully with mods AI can make them.
 
I'm hyped about most of this for sure, but I'm very frustrated with the lack of detailed information on how dead religions work. If I'm playing, say, a high-learning Irish countess, what would the neccessary steps be for converting to the old irish-celtic religion? And would you then need to reform it before you're able to convert anyone, or would it cease being marked as dead when you convert to it?
 
f I'm playing, say, a high-learning Irish countess, what would the neccessary steps be for converting to the old irish-celtic religion?
You can't, it's not in the game, at least as of the second-to-last game. Popular demand may mean they throw something together on a whim, but given Hellenism is in and is mechanic-less...well, it probably won't get much attention outside a later DLC.
 
As someone who played CKII alot and is his most favortite games these recent years ,I'd like to know am I the only one who think the menus feel bland and are not as artistic and immersive as they should be? especially when compare them to CK2?
Hopefully it won't be Rome 2 (of Total War series) fiasco all over again