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Dev Diary #24 - Fervor, Religious Hostility, and Doctrine Showcase

Hello everyone, and welcome back to our final Dev Diary on Religion in Crusader Kings 3! Today I will be talking about what the mysterious Fervor is, how that ties into Heresies and Heresy Outbreaks, as well as how Religious Hostility works and some of the ways that Doctrines can impact it. To wrap things up, I will show off some additional never-before seen Tenets and Doctrines!

Fervor
Every Faith has a Fervor score, which is a representation of how strongly adherents of that Faith believe in the righteousness of their religious and secular leaders. While Fervor has a slow ticking increase over time, it is primarily influenced by the virtuousness or sinfulness of that Faith’s leaders. Virtuous priests can inspire a populace and rally the people behind themselves, while sinful ones (especially religious heads) can cause massive scandals that damage the faithful’s trust in their religious institutions.

DD_WM_Scandal.png

[A screenshot of the Pope looking very guilty after being caught in flagrante]

Adherents of a Faith with high Fervor are willing to fight and die for their beliefs. They gain bonus resistance to attempts to convert them to another faith, and both secular and religious leaders can declare Holy Wars to spread their Faith across the world. However, while these Holy Wars are ostensibly waged in the name of the divine, in practice they often tend to be little more than opportunistic land-grabs — as a result, every Holy War declared will slightly damage a Faiths’ Fervor, while losing land to hostile Holy Wars will actually increase your Faith’s Fervor as the embattled faithful dig in and fight for their way of life!

When a Faith’s Fervor drops, adherents of that Faith become vulnerable to conversion. Characters are more willing to accept a Demand Conversion when their Faith’s Fervor is low, and the Court Chaplain’s ‘Convert County’ task gains a scaling bonus against Faiths whose Fervor is lower than their own. In addition, if Fervor drops low enough, a Faith becomes vulnerable to heresy outbreaks!

Heresy Outbreaks
A heresy outbreak is what happens when a ruler becomes disillusioned with their current Faith and is swayed to join a different one. If there is already a heretical Faith present nearby, they will convert to that one automatically. If no suitable heresies are around, they will become a heresiarch and start espousing the doctrines of a brand new Faith, which is typically (but not always), one from their Religion.

A ruler who converts to or founds a new heretical Faith will then attempt to convince nearby rulers of their old Faith to join them, with the success rate of this being dependent on how low their old Faith’s fervor has fallen. This means that while heresy outbreaks can vary wildly in size, converts to the new heresy will tend to remain clustered together in a specific region — this both protects the burgeoning Faith while simultaneously limiting its influence in distant lands.

DD_WM_Heresy.png

[A screenshot showing an outbreak of Lollardy, originating in southern England]

As you can imagine, heresy outbreaks are incredibly divisive events; nobody wants to sit on the fence when your immortal soul is on the line! As a result, after a heresy outbreak occurs both the old Faith and the new heretical Faith will gain a substantial increase to their Fervor score. As this is likely to encourage Holy Wars for both sides, it is not uncommon for a new period of religious violence to follow as the two Faiths fight for supremacy!

Ultimately, the flow from scandal to heresy to zealousness and back will cause Fervor to vary wildly over the course of a game of CK3. Unlike the relatively static Mortal Authority in CK2, this means that even the big dominant religions will have periods of weakness, making them vulnerable to fractures and religious violence.

Religious Hostility
Speaking of religious violence, how does that work? With so many different Faiths and Religions in Crusader Kings III, how do they view each other? What is the difference between how an Orthodox ruler views a Catholic, a Bogomil, and an Ash’ari?

In Crusader Kings III this is all handled by the Religious Hostility system. For characters of a given Faith, every other Faith in the game will receive one of the following rankings:
  1. Righteous
  2. Astray
  3. Hostile
  4. Evil
Righteous is how a Faith views itself and, in a few rare circumstances, other Faiths that have certain things in common with it. Righteous Faiths have no penalties at all with each other.

Astray is how a Faith views other Faiths that have similar goals and ideals but are just a little… wrong. For example, Orthodoxy and Catholicism consider each other to be Astray. Astray Faiths have only a minor opinion penalty with each other.

Hostile is how most Faiths view their heresies and other significantly divergent Faiths. Opinion penalties are more substantial at this level, and rulers gain the ability to declare Holy Wars against rulers of Hostile Faiths. However, intermarriage is still common when it is politically convenient, and alliances can still be forged between rulers of Hostile Faiths.

Evil Faiths are considered to be an anathema, and cannot be tolerated. Evil Faiths suffer the most severe opinion penalty possible, and Holy Wars against each other become commonplace. Rulers will almost never accept marriages with characters of an Evil Faith, making alliances all-but-impossible.

So how is Religious Hostility determined? The primary factor is what Religion Family both Faiths belong to:

DD_Hostility.png

[A screenshot of a spreadsheet showing how base Religious Hostility is calculated, with Abrahamic Faiths being the least tolerant and Eastern Faiths being the most tolerant]

But wait, if Abrahamic Faiths view other Faiths within the same Religion has Hostile, why do Catholicism and Orthodoxy only see each other as Astray? The answer to that, my friend, is Doctrines!

Doctrine & Tenet Showcase
Now we’re going to take some time to reveal a bunch of the various Doctrines and Tenets available for Faiths in Crusader Kings 3. For starters, the Catholic, Orthodox, Apostolic, and Coptic Faiths all have the ‘Ecumenism’ Doctrine, which changes the Hostility of any other Faith with the same Doctrine to just ‘Astray’, thus allowing these Faiths to have cordial relations with each other.

DD_WM_Doctrine_Ecumenism.png

[A screenshot showing the Ecumenism doctrine, which reduces Hostility between certain Christian Faiths]

In a similar vein, the various Muslim Faiths all have a doctrine representing their belief in the true succession for Muhammad. The various Sunni Faiths all see each other as Astray, with the same being true for the collective Shia Faiths and the collective Muhakkima Faiths.

The embattled minority of Gnostic Faiths have an ever stronger version of this; having always struggled to have their beliefs accepted, they see all other Gnostic Faiths as being fully ‘Righteous’. This allows us to have coalitions of Faiths within or even outside of a Religion that see some Faiths as allies and others as enemies, completely changing the dynamic of how religious relations play out in Crusader Kings III.

DD_WM_Doctrine_Gnositism.png

[A screenshot showing the Gnosticism Tenet, which among other things eliminates Religious Hostility between Gnostic Faiths]

Finally there are other Tenets which can modify how your Faith sees, and is seen by, Faiths in other Religions.

DD_WM_Doctrine_Syncretism.png

[A screenshot showing various Syncretism Tenets, which reduce Religious Hostility across entire Religions]

Diplomacy not your thing? Try some warfare!

DD_WM_Tenets_Warfare.png

[A screenshot showing various warfare-focuses Doctrines and Tenets, including Armed Pilgrimages which enables Crusades]

Or is all of this just too secular for you? After all, isn’t religion supposed to be about spiritualism, a belief in otherworldly entities beyond our understanding? Well then maybe one of these tenets would suit you...

DD_WM_Tenets_Mysticism.png

[A screenshot showing various Tenets of a more spiritual nature: Astrology, Auspicious Birthright, Reincarnation, Sun Worship, Sky Burials, and Esotericism]

Of course, this is just a sample of the Tenets and Doctrines that we have in Crusader Kings 3. It would take too long to go into this level of detail for all of them, but here is a teaser of some available Tenets on the Faith Creation screen, showing both some previously revealed and unrevealed Tenets.

DD_WM_Tenets_List.png

[A snippet of a handful of available Tenets from the Faith Creation screen]

That’s all for now — hopefully this post has given you something to think about as you plan your first campaign of Crusader Kings III, and every one after that!
 
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I wasn't talking about performance in this case, but making it clear to the player: Having a list with the relation to each other religion wouldn't really work, so it would be at least a bit obscure.

I mean that applies to character relationships as well. I've never even tried to understand who hates who beyond scrolling for yellow thumbs in CKII.

Even without dynamic hostility, I feel like there's a good chance I'll occasionally forget who is ecumenical or syncretic and presumably I'll be able to mouse over the faith icon and see "Astray" or maybe there will be a list on my faith tab. Worst case scenario, I mouse over a character of that faith and see their opinion modifier.

This actually reminds me of something - will we be able to see the causes of other Faith's fervor? Occasionally in CKII I'd secretly covert - > personally adopt - > adopt local faith just to see that info.
 
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So, I have a question: Will there be a way for Muslim faiths to be more tolerant of non-Muslim Abrahamics within the same realm? Perhaps a Doctrine?

I'm thinking the Umayyads here, since they had no real problem with having dhimmi administrators but fought jihads like the rest.
 
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So, I have a question: Will there be a way for Muslim faiths to be more tolerant of non-Muslim Abrahamics within the same realm? Perhaps a Doctrine?

I'm thinking the Umayyads here, since they had no real problem with having dhimmi administrators but fought jihads like the rest.
The People of the book doctrine, hmmm. Sounds interesting enough, I guess we would have to wait and see.
 
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so this is stupid and nitpicky and maybe not in the appropriate place but today I discovered in the ck2 files that for some reason "Brahma" is listed as the high god for Buddhism. Can you please make sure not to have such an error in the next game. This is the equivalent of having the son of the Christian god being named Satan. I can see how this error was made as Brahma is listed as king of the Gods in some texts, but "Gods" in Buddhism aren't seen in the same light as Gods in other faiths. In Buddhism a being that is qualified as a God doesn't necessarily have any more divinity than a human would, they just experience an existence that is magnitudes more enjoyable. Only beings that are on the path of enlightenment are worthy of being described as divine.

I respect that this game isn't specifically focused on the religions of the Indian subcontinent but if they are going to be included it seems important that they are at least represented in an appropriate way. Some appropriate terms would include Buddha (awakened one - this is the ultimate be-all and end-all), Arhat (one who has gained insight into the true nature of existence and has achieved nirvana), Tathagata (one who has come, one who has gone), Bodhisattva (one whose goal is awakening), Dakini (sky dancer/wind dancer - the embodiment of female enlightened energy). There is also not just one Buddha as Buddhahood or enlightenment is the ultimate goal for all practitioners.

If this issue has been addressed please just ignore my comment. I'm not trying to be obnoxious at all. I only just noticed as I don't play Buddhist characters very often as they don't really have any interesting mechanics compared to the depth and richness of other faiths. Though I am truly looking forward to what you guys are working on with this next iteration! Thanks for listening to the ramblings of an enthused Buddhist!
 
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I think that making holy wars cost fervor to declare and giving the target a fervor bonus when they lose is a really good change. It will hopefully prevent situations typical for CK2, where one faith sits at a permanent 100 MA for winning a lot of holy wars, and every other religion falls into a death spiral of low MA. It also means that you can no longer use holy wars as a basically free CB for grabbing unlimited land.

I am curious how the faith hostility system will play out in practice, but it does seem to differentiate the three religious families from each other significantly, which I appreciate.
Exactly. No more Catholicism sitting at 0 MA in earlier starts because of Vikings. No more ridiculous Holy War exploits. No more Heresy spirals.
 
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I like the new hostility system (though evil seems a bit strong, for instance this is saying a Muslim views other people of the book as evil).

Now seeing the religious hostility system, I still don't see why oriental religion group makes sense for Zoroastrianism. The last major Zoroastrian power (the Sasanian Empire) persecuted not just other religious families (Christians), but also the Manicheans, who I assume are in the same religious family as Zoroastrianism. Additionally, Zoroastrianism, and related religious like Yazidism, aren't for marrying outside your faith. Both of those don't seem to fit well with the Oriental religious families' hostility settings.
 
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I like the new hostility system (though evil seems a bit strong, for instance this is saying a Muslim views other people of the book as evil).

Now seeing the religious hostility system, I still don't see why oriental religion group makes sense for Zoroastrianism. The last major Zoroastrian power (the Sasanian Empire) persecuted not just other religious families (Christians), but also the Manicheans, who I assume are in the same religious family as Zoroastrianism. Additionally, Zoroastrianism, and related religious like Yazidism, aren't for marrying outside your faith. Both of those don't seem to fit well with the Oriental religious families' hostility settings.
The Oriental/Eastern group could definitely be helped with a split.
I'm thinking of an Iranian group for Zoroastrianism and other faiths in the sphere of the old Persian empire, an Indian group for Dharmic religions and an Eastern group for Chinese religions which are apparently in the game and don't really fit with Hinduism honestly.
 
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Looks fantastic, wish heresies were more based in politics than fervor though.
Historically the big heresies of the era were more about rejecting failures in the political establishment as a whole than feeling there wasnt enough faith or caused by widespready apathy or disbelief.
In a way if fervor wasnt really high, dissidents wouldn't go to heresy but more secular directions anyway.
And if heresies are just about belief then well, "Adherents of a Faith with high Fervor are willing to fight and die for their beliefs." that's how those kinds of heresies start. when fervor is so high that focus on a small part of it spirals into a major dispute.

I don't know how I'd prefer it though. Maybe have fervor give all the boons and bonuses but raise heresy chance? so it's a balance game, you can raise fervor for the modifiers and holy wars etc, but that runs the risk of fervor getting peasents taking religion a bit too far/rebels turning to religion/dangerous aspects of the faith being raised in awareness/etc and heresies breaking out?

instead of, it being an all good one side, all bad the other. if people dont care about religion enough.. heresies?
 
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I don't think the idea of rulers as heresiarchs is particularly accurate, unfortunately. CK2's system was a better rendition, in this regard.

But the intermarriages between different religions (except those regarding the other as 'evil') are a very welcome and historical addition! (EDIT: Although I just saw the spreadsheet apparently showing that no Muslim-Christian marriages are allowed, even now... which is, demonstrably, ahistorical.)
 
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However, while these Holy Wars are ostensibly waged in the name of the divine, in practice they often tend to be little more than opportunistic land-grabs — as a result, every Holy War declared will slightly damage a Faiths’ Fervor!

Will this be the case for Holy Wars only or Great Holy Wars too? I can see why the former might reduce Fervor, but the latter less so. The capture a great, almost mythical, city or land of your faith would surely be a source of great awe for your people. Whether or not you believe that the motivations we holy or not (which there are good arguments either way for) the impact it would have on the faith's people, literature and music would undoubtedly be positive.

Also, on a totally separate point, how hard will it be to convert the populace as a smaller religion? Are we talking like CK2 where you only have like 1% chance of converting a county or will it be higher? One of my major gripes with CK2 was that playing alt-history with religions was near on impossible for some due to the way holy sites worked. If you wanted to play a Monophysite Italy or a Manichaen North Africa, you could pretty much forget about it because you were so far away from the holy sites that you never get your MA high enough to convert provinces. It would be nice if there was a bit more flexibility and if you, for example, moved the head of your religion to your realm, therefore making your lands the faith's base of operations, then that would have a significant impact on your ability to convert provinces.
 
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So, if anyone else was curious, miracle worker is apparently the trait you get at the end of the mystic tree where you've cultivated a reputation for having magical powers. You don't actually have magical powers mind you, but people think you do. Also, I learned about a tenet called adoricism which I had to google and it's apparently the opposite of exorcism where you attract a spirit to possess you. I got both of these from the Discord dev questions btw.

So! Right now I'm thinking: female dominated Gnostic faith in Wales with esotericism, adoricism and something else suitable as the tenets. The Demiurge and his shepards are leading the world astray. They will be freed. Maybe an AAR called the Witches of Wales.
 
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(EDIT: Although I just saw the spreadsheet apparently showing that no Muslim-Christian marriages are allowed, even now... which is, demonstrably, ahistorical.)
Just asking here, but which Christian denominations did intermarry with Muslims? I don't really recall any ...
 
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so this is stupid and nitpicky and maybe not in the appropriate place but today I discovered in the ck2 files that for some reason "Brahma" is listed as the high god for Buddhism. Can you please make sure not to have such an error in the next game. This is the equivalent of having the son of the Christian god being named Satan. I can see how this error was made as Brahma is listed as king of the Gods in some texts, but "Gods" in Buddhism aren't seen in the same light as Gods in other faiths. In Buddhism a being that is qualified as a God doesn't necessarily have any more divinity than a human would, they just experience an existence that is magnitudes more enjoyable. Only beings that are on the path of enlightenment are worthy of being described as divine.

I respect that this game isn't specifically focused on the religions of the Indian subcontinent but if they are going to be included it seems important that they are at least represented in an appropriate way. Some appropriate terms would include Buddha (awakened one - this is the ultimate be-all and end-all), Arhat (one who has gained insight into the true nature of existence and has achieved nirvana), Tathagata (one who has come, one who has gone), Bodhisattva (one whose goal is awakening), Dakini (sky dancer/wind dancer - the embodiment of female enlightened energy). There is also not just one Buddha as Buddhahood or enlightenment is the ultimate goal for all practitioners.

If this issue has been addressed please just ignore my comment. I'm not trying to be obnoxious at all. I only just noticed as I don't play Buddhist characters very often as they don't really have any interesting mechanics compared to the depth and richness of other faiths. Though I am truly looking forward to what you guys are working on with this next iteration! Thanks for listening to the ramblings of an enthused Buddhist!

The bigger issue in CKII wasn't the name list, but the text that surrounded it. It doesn't make any sense to say, "They are with the Arhant now" on the ruler death screen, for instance. As well, there's the problem of the highly divergent sects. In any sect, if Brahma Sahampati shows up and tells your Buddhist ruler something, you'll know who that is and be enthused about "the voice of Brahma" but a Sri Lankan Theravadin is going to be like, "Dakini who?"

Honestly, Buddhists and Jains are always going to be the odd ones out and unfortunately I bet there's still going to be some awfully hilarious madlibs from inserting their words into christian templates. Given that, I might rather they just use the names of lowly supernatural beings like Devas, Nagas, Garudas, etc, who do appear in visions in all on-map varieties of Buddhism and many of whom are unskillful enough to endorse wars and oppression.

Also CKII Buddhists are pretty fun. Tibetans are like muslims without decadence and Indian Buddhists have open succession and kingdom-level subjugation.



I like the new hostility system (though evil seems a bit strong, for instance this is saying a Muslim views other people of the book as evil).

Now seeing the religious hostility system, I still don't see why oriental religion group makes sense for Zoroastrianism. The last major Zoroastrian power (the Sasanian Empire) persecuted not just other religious families (Christians), but also the Manicheans, who I assume are in the same religious family as Zoroastrianism. Additionally, Zoroastrianism, and related religious like Yazidism, aren't for marrying outside your faith. Both of those don't seem to fit well with the Oriental religious families' hostility settings.

With Zoroastrianism it's tough, and doesn't track through their whole history. On the surface, Iranian and Indian religions consider each other to be, basically, demon worshippers, with Ahura / Asura and Daeva / Deva basically flipping side from one religious group to the other in terms of good and bad. Proto-Mazdan tribes were likely engaged in horrible religious warfare that drove Deva worshipers to India and the near east. Mazdans had prayers like the Frawardin Yasht section twelve, which talks about killing deva-worshippers by the hundreds of thousands of hundreds of thousands (AKA ten billion). But practically, they had much more antagonistic opportunities against non-deva worshippers, especially Christians and Muslims (just before the time of the game) and made only relatively minor, non-genocidal incursions into India.

Then they lost all their lands, were welcomed into Gujarat, and have been fine neighbors to their Deva-worshipping co-nationalists with occasional intermarriage (far beyond the game scope, but Indira Ghandi's husband was a Parsi).

I suspect that this can all be modeled by tenets and doctrines that modify hostility and intermarriage, but it's also another example of why dynamic hostility would be great. If they stay a minority, Zoroastrians should grow more and more accepting with time, but in an Alt-History where they restore the persian empire, they should gradually get more hostile.

Also, I really think the Abrahamic settings really only make sense for Christianity. Even a hypothetical restore-the-temple, reinstate animal sacrifice, resume religious execution, "We've got a Kohen Gadol Yo" version of Judaism would, absent unknowable political pressure, see Christians and Muslims as compliant with the seven Noahide laws and thus merely "astray".
 
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Something I’d like to know is will there be a way to have interfaith marriages between people of evil faiths? (Like a Christian marrying a Muslim)?
 
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Something I’d like to know is will there be a way to have interfaith marriages between people of evil faiths? (Like a Christian marrying a Muslim)?
The dev diary says "Rulers will almost never accept marriages with characters of an Evil Faith, making alliances all-but-impossible."

My guess is that you can still force marriages on your courtiers, and use hooks to force through proposals.
 
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The dev diary says "Rulers will almost never accept marriages with characters of an Evil Faith, making alliances all-but-impossible."

My guess is that you can still force marriages on your courtiers, and use hooks to force through proposals.
The thing about hooks, is that they seem like you can’t really guarantee anything like Favors in CK2 and there’s a chance they’ll say no.
 
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The religious hostility system could be improved too honestly.
The way it was worded in previous dev diaries made me think that it could have been able to represent stuff like occasional intermarrying between Christians and Muslims, or how Muslims themselves tended to be more tolerant toward Christians and Jews compared to pagans (you'd think that Christians and Muslims would view each others as "Hostile" instead of full on "Evil", especially when it comes to the Muslim view on Christianity. They'd still holy war each others to death, but the shared Abrahamic roots should matter somewhat like they mattered in real life).
 
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