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Dev Diary #24 - Fervor, Religious Hostility, and Doctrine Showcase

Hello everyone, and welcome back to our final Dev Diary on Religion in Crusader Kings 3! Today I will be talking about what the mysterious Fervor is, how that ties into Heresies and Heresy Outbreaks, as well as how Religious Hostility works and some of the ways that Doctrines can impact it. To wrap things up, I will show off some additional never-before seen Tenets and Doctrines!

Fervor
Every Faith has a Fervor score, which is a representation of how strongly adherents of that Faith believe in the righteousness of their religious and secular leaders. While Fervor has a slow ticking increase over time, it is primarily influenced by the virtuousness or sinfulness of that Faith’s leaders. Virtuous priests can inspire a populace and rally the people behind themselves, while sinful ones (especially religious heads) can cause massive scandals that damage the faithful’s trust in their religious institutions.

DD_WM_Scandal.png

[A screenshot of the Pope looking very guilty after being caught in flagrante]

Adherents of a Faith with high Fervor are willing to fight and die for their beliefs. They gain bonus resistance to attempts to convert them to another faith, and both secular and religious leaders can declare Holy Wars to spread their Faith across the world. However, while these Holy Wars are ostensibly waged in the name of the divine, in practice they often tend to be little more than opportunistic land-grabs — as a result, every Holy War declared will slightly damage a Faiths’ Fervor, while losing land to hostile Holy Wars will actually increase your Faith’s Fervor as the embattled faithful dig in and fight for their way of life!

When a Faith’s Fervor drops, adherents of that Faith become vulnerable to conversion. Characters are more willing to accept a Demand Conversion when their Faith’s Fervor is low, and the Court Chaplain’s ‘Convert County’ task gains a scaling bonus against Faiths whose Fervor is lower than their own. In addition, if Fervor drops low enough, a Faith becomes vulnerable to heresy outbreaks!

Heresy Outbreaks
A heresy outbreak is what happens when a ruler becomes disillusioned with their current Faith and is swayed to join a different one. If there is already a heretical Faith present nearby, they will convert to that one automatically. If no suitable heresies are around, they will become a heresiarch and start espousing the doctrines of a brand new Faith, which is typically (but not always), one from their Religion.

A ruler who converts to or founds a new heretical Faith will then attempt to convince nearby rulers of their old Faith to join them, with the success rate of this being dependent on how low their old Faith’s fervor has fallen. This means that while heresy outbreaks can vary wildly in size, converts to the new heresy will tend to remain clustered together in a specific region — this both protects the burgeoning Faith while simultaneously limiting its influence in distant lands.

DD_WM_Heresy.png

[A screenshot showing an outbreak of Lollardy, originating in southern England]

As you can imagine, heresy outbreaks are incredibly divisive events; nobody wants to sit on the fence when your immortal soul is on the line! As a result, after a heresy outbreak occurs both the old Faith and the new heretical Faith will gain a substantial increase to their Fervor score. As this is likely to encourage Holy Wars for both sides, it is not uncommon for a new period of religious violence to follow as the two Faiths fight for supremacy!

Ultimately, the flow from scandal to heresy to zealousness and back will cause Fervor to vary wildly over the course of a game of CK3. Unlike the relatively static Mortal Authority in CK2, this means that even the big dominant religions will have periods of weakness, making them vulnerable to fractures and religious violence.

Religious Hostility
Speaking of religious violence, how does that work? With so many different Faiths and Religions in Crusader Kings III, how do they view each other? What is the difference between how an Orthodox ruler views a Catholic, a Bogomil, and an Ash’ari?

In Crusader Kings III this is all handled by the Religious Hostility system. For characters of a given Faith, every other Faith in the game will receive one of the following rankings:
  1. Righteous
  2. Astray
  3. Hostile
  4. Evil
Righteous is how a Faith views itself and, in a few rare circumstances, other Faiths that have certain things in common with it. Righteous Faiths have no penalties at all with each other.

Astray is how a Faith views other Faiths that have similar goals and ideals but are just a little… wrong. For example, Orthodoxy and Catholicism consider each other to be Astray. Astray Faiths have only a minor opinion penalty with each other.

Hostile is how most Faiths view their heresies and other significantly divergent Faiths. Opinion penalties are more substantial at this level, and rulers gain the ability to declare Holy Wars against rulers of Hostile Faiths. However, intermarriage is still common when it is politically convenient, and alliances can still be forged between rulers of Hostile Faiths.

Evil Faiths are considered to be an anathema, and cannot be tolerated. Evil Faiths suffer the most severe opinion penalty possible, and Holy Wars against each other become commonplace. Rulers will almost never accept marriages with characters of an Evil Faith, making alliances all-but-impossible.

So how is Religious Hostility determined? The primary factor is what Religion Family both Faiths belong to:

DD_Hostility.png

[A screenshot of a spreadsheet showing how base Religious Hostility is calculated, with Abrahamic Faiths being the least tolerant and Eastern Faiths being the most tolerant]

But wait, if Abrahamic Faiths view other Faiths within the same Religion has Hostile, why do Catholicism and Orthodoxy only see each other as Astray? The answer to that, my friend, is Doctrines!

Doctrine & Tenet Showcase
Now we’re going to take some time to reveal a bunch of the various Doctrines and Tenets available for Faiths in Crusader Kings 3. For starters, the Catholic, Orthodox, Apostolic, and Coptic Faiths all have the ‘Ecumenism’ Doctrine, which changes the Hostility of any other Faith with the same Doctrine to just ‘Astray’, thus allowing these Faiths to have cordial relations with each other.

DD_WM_Doctrine_Ecumenism.png

[A screenshot showing the Ecumenism doctrine, which reduces Hostility between certain Christian Faiths]

In a similar vein, the various Muslim Faiths all have a doctrine representing their belief in the true succession for Muhammad. The various Sunni Faiths all see each other as Astray, with the same being true for the collective Shia Faiths and the collective Muhakkima Faiths.

The embattled minority of Gnostic Faiths have an ever stronger version of this; having always struggled to have their beliefs accepted, they see all other Gnostic Faiths as being fully ‘Righteous’. This allows us to have coalitions of Faiths within or even outside of a Religion that see some Faiths as allies and others as enemies, completely changing the dynamic of how religious relations play out in Crusader Kings III.

DD_WM_Doctrine_Gnositism.png

[A screenshot showing the Gnosticism Tenet, which among other things eliminates Religious Hostility between Gnostic Faiths]

Finally there are other Tenets which can modify how your Faith sees, and is seen by, Faiths in other Religions.

DD_WM_Doctrine_Syncretism.png

[A screenshot showing various Syncretism Tenets, which reduce Religious Hostility across entire Religions]

Diplomacy not your thing? Try some warfare!

DD_WM_Tenets_Warfare.png

[A screenshot showing various warfare-focuses Doctrines and Tenets, including Armed Pilgrimages which enables Crusades]

Or is all of this just too secular for you? After all, isn’t religion supposed to be about spiritualism, a belief in otherworldly entities beyond our understanding? Well then maybe one of these tenets would suit you...

DD_WM_Tenets_Mysticism.png

[A screenshot showing various Tenets of a more spiritual nature: Astrology, Auspicious Birthright, Reincarnation, Sun Worship, Sky Burials, and Esotericism]

Of course, this is just a sample of the Tenets and Doctrines that we have in Crusader Kings 3. It would take too long to go into this level of detail for all of them, but here is a teaser of some available Tenets on the Faith Creation screen, showing both some previously revealed and unrevealed Tenets.

DD_WM_Tenets_List.png

[A snippet of a handful of available Tenets from the Faith Creation screen]

That’s all for now — hopefully this post has given you something to think about as you plan your first campaign of Crusader Kings III, and every one after that!
 
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The Cathars weren't unique in their strength or how long they lasted though. For one, the Waldensians lasted for centuries in Swtzerland, Italy, and France even influencing Reformation thinkers and, by the way, they're still around today. The idea that the Cathars were unique as a Catholic heresy that wasn't quickly suppressed is really wrong.
First, tell that to
The system is just meant to make it possible for Cathars to pop up in Europe and be an issue like they historically were

But anyway,
No. It often took centuries to completely wipe out a religion.
Nobody said they would be completely annihilated--simply removed from positions of political power. Waldensians influencing philosophers is important down the line, but the fact that there are no officially Waldensian countries in Europe today is the important gameplay part. Removing all characters with it from the game does not mean that they no longer exist (there are many, many people offscreen, after all), simply that they have no significant influence politically speaking.
 
The heretical faiths may appear, but will be quickly suppressed, which is, yes, realistic.
Or maybe not? Crusader Kings isn't about realism, it's about alternate history, even of the implausible kind.

I don't get it. Do you really like the idea of an immutable, monolithic Catholic blob that crushes everything in its wake and is never challenged over a system where religions can wax and wane in power, well, dynamically?
 
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First, tell that to


But anyway,

Nobody said they would be completely annihilated--simply removed from positions of political power. Waldensians influencing philosophers is important down the line, but the fact that there are no officially Waldensian countries in Europe today is the important gameplay part. Removing all characters with it from the game does not mean that they no longer exist (there are many, many people offscreen, after all), simply that they have no significant influence politically speaking.
Except it was not "influencing" philosophers. It is literally the Waldensian Church continued to exist into and past the Reformation and was considered the Italian branch of Calvinism before merging with the Italian Methodist Church in the 1970s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensian_Evangelical_Church
 
Or maybe not? Crusader Kings isn't about realism, it's about alternate history, even of the implausible kind.
Which I do frequently enjoy, buuut...three years later, when an Irish count spontaneously turns into a Bogomilist polar bear married to a horse before getting sacrificed to Aztec sun gods, there's kind of a limit.

Internal division should be crippling, yes, but it should arise in a realistic way--winning a Crusade, as stated, does not make people believe less in divine approval.

Maybe something similar to the existing Stress mechanic or reform desire from EUIV?

Except it was not "influencing" philosophers. It is literally the Waldensian Church continued to exist into and past the Reformation and was considered the Italian branch of Calvinism before merging with the Italian Methodist Church in the 1970s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensian_Evangelical_Church
Which does not answer the question of what political power it held in Italy versus the dominant religion (Roman Catholicism). Something terribly drastic would have to happen for the locals to convert, which could indeed arise in game, but winning a holy war would not be it.

If you do have any suggestions for a more realistic mechanic than either Moral Authority or this system, such as the ideas I floated above, that would be a helpful discussion.
 
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Or maybe not? Crusader Kings isn't about realism, it's about alternate history, even of the implausible kind.

I don't get it. Do you really like the idea of an immutable, monolithic Catholic blob that crushes everything in its wake and is never challenged over a system where religions can wax and wane in power, well, dynamically?

I believe nobody is disputing that. The issue is that it seems impossible for a Catholic blob to crush everything, as it had done, for centuries, before the reformation.

I don't think there is ANYONE here or anywhere else, disliking the idea of dynamicity. But I also think that there is a large portion of the community that likes for historical outcomes to, if not likely, to at least be possible.
 
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Remember, heresies are simply different faiths of the same religion now. Catholicism and Orthodox are different faiths of the same religion, Christianity, and do not get heresies specific to their faith, like they did in CK2.

Yes, by "heresy" here I was thinking of a new religion founded by a human ruler - sorry for the misleading language. My question was - from a gameplay perspective, it would be overwhelmingly more advantageous for a ruler of a Catholic realm to keep every new religion he might want to found as "ecumenic", so to escape effectively most of the issues of being of a "wrong" religion. The only case in which it would not be a too easy advantage to take is if we are founding a new religion explicitly in order to wage holy wars against your neighbours...
 
I believe nobody is disputing that. The issue is that it seems impossible for a Catholic blob to crush everything, as it had done, for centuries, before the reformation.

I don't think there is ANYONE here or anywhere else, disliking the idea of dynamicity. But I also think that there is a large portion of the community that likes for historical outcomes to, if not likely, to at least be possible.
The historical outcome is that the Catholic blob was not able to crush everything, so the historical outcome seems pretty possible here.
 
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Internal division should be crippling, yes, but it should arise in a realistic way--winning a Crusade, as stated, does not make people believe less in divine approval.
I fullheartedly agree with your sagacity - but of course, the gold brimming the coffers of the Pope and other clergymen after a Crusade, on the other hand...
 
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Yes, by "heresy" here I was thinking of a new religion founded by a human ruler - sorry for the misleading language. My question was - from a gameplay perspective, it would be overwhelmingly more advantageous for a ruler of a Catholic realm to keep every new religion he might want to found as "ecumenic", so to escape effectively most of the issues of being of a "wrong" religion. The only case in which it would not be a too easy advantage to take is if we are founding a new religion explicitly in order to wage holy wars against your neighbours...
But... it's a slot that you could spend on something more useful to you.
 
The historical outcome is that the Catholic blob was not able to crush everything, so the historical outcome seems pretty possible here.

The only major heresy the Catholic blob was unable to crush, to the point that in-game it would hold provinces. Was Hussitism. Every other heresy was relegated to underground or obscurity.
 
Which I do frequently enjoy, buuut...three years later, when an Irish count spontaneously turns into a Bogomilist polar bear married to a horse before getting sacrificed to Aztec sun gods, there's kind of a limit.
So, you believe that having a system where victorious religions aren't allowed to stack positive moral authority bonuses on top of positive moral authority bonuses to give a chance for heresies to pop up and losing religions to not just die is equivalent to... That thing?

That's interesting.

Internal division should be crippling, yes, but it should arise in a realistic way--winning a Crusade, as stated, does not make people believe less in divine approval.
Well, you're in luck: that's not how the system works.
 
So, you believe that having a system where victorious religions aren't allowed to stacking positive moral authority bonuses on top of positive moral authority bonuses to give a chance for heresies to pop up and losing religions to not just die is equivalent to... That thing?
So,
isn't about realism, it's about alternate history, even of the implausible kind.
You're admitting your favored system is unrealistic and implausible?

That's interesting.
Well, you're in luck: that's not how the system works.
Well, you're out of luck, because here's how it works if you actually read the DD:

1. Declaring Holy Wars drops Fervor.
2. Religions with low Fervor become more susceptible to heresy and conversion (I.E., believing less in divine approval).

And what does one do when previous Holy Wars went well, even if one isn't opportunistic?
 
1. Declaring Holy Wars drops Fervor.
2. Religions with low Fervor become more susceptible to heresy and conversion (I.E., believing less in divine approval).
I think this can be numerically balanced, like Holy Wars give a -1% to Fervor, but "low" Fervor is lower than 50% or something like that. So as long as you faith doesn't declare 50 holy wars at once you should be ok.
 
I think this can be numerically balanced, like Holy Wars give a -1% to Fervor, but "low" Fervor is lower than 50% or something like that. So as long as you faith doesn't declare 50 holy wars at once you should be ok.
That does seem more fair and more historical, admittedly (I can see people being distrustful of all those wars at once), the problem just being that it includes AI holy wars.

Well, maybe if they balance the AI.
 
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