Dev Diary #4 — Realms and the Pantheon

[Heshin]

To address comments about cosmetics needing to be unlocked at the start of the game - there is this thing called reward, people like to get rewards, those unlockables are rewards for playing. There is plenty of great stuff to customize your leader, it's not like you miss out. But this seems to be a case of - I need to work to get it? No give it to me! Play it, get cooler looking hat and be happy.

I definitely understand your perspective. I have no problem with unlocks or rewards and l’m not trying to sound entitled. I love unlocking new techs and units. I get rewarded just from being able to play the game. I get rewarded when my hero levels up, or I take the enemies last city. It just feels artificial to me when it’s a (hero or world trait) cosmetic. Less genuine. More just for the sake of grinding, which I do not appreciate.

I know others like that sort of thing, but to me it just feels too manipulative. There is a chance I might have to do or play a certain thing or certain way I would not normally otherwise do just to unlock something I want to try, and that is just not usually a good experience for me.

Ultimately, it’s a minor gripe. Everything else looks amazing, and I expect to hardly even notice the grind is there.

 

[Triumph Jordi]

I get rewarded just from being able to play the game. I get rewarded when my hero levels up, or I take the enemies last city.

So those are rewards during a game, but that ends once you're finished. The aim of the Pantheon system is to provide rewards for finishing those games. You've just conquered a cool Realm and now you can unlock new cosmetics. With those cosmetics you can make even more ruler fantasies to go into a Realm with.

There is a chance I might have to do or play a certain thing or certain way I would not normally otherwise do just to unlock something I want to try, and that is just not usually a good experience for me.

Like we've detailed, you gain experience for things you will naturally do during a game. You don't have to play a certain way or with a certain thing to gain experience. Even if all you play is Multiplayer you'll gain xp, points and eventually be able to unlock things.

 

[TulajMnie]

I definitely understand your perspective. I have no problem with unlocks or rewards and l’m not trying to sound entitled. I love unlocking new techs and units. I get rewarded just from being able to play the game. I get rewarded when my hero levels up, or I take the enemies last city. It just feels artificial to me when it’s a (hero or world trait) cosmetic. Less genuine. More just for the sake of grinding, which I do not appreciate.

I get that, I don't agree. It's not less genuine since it's right there, it's not hidden, you know what the deal is. You don't need those things, it's a bonus for completing objectives. People who play a lot will unlock it really fast, people who don't play that much slower. It's not time limited, you got time to unlock it.
Grind is something that you do to get that one thing for a really long time. You don't grind this exp, you get it by just playing from a lot of things. It's a bonus, not a grind

I know others like that sort of thing, but to me it just feels too manipulative. There is a chance I might have to do or play a certain thing or certain way I would not normally otherwise do just to unlock something I want to try, and that is just not usually a good experience for me.

Again negative connotation with manipulation - it's fully transparent what you need to do to get it. And it's also very clear that you don't need to play certain way. Its confirmed. Yet your fears made your mind and making those comments. I understand how it feels when game isn't just right for you, I truly do. But calling it manipulative is too much.
Also those things are personal tastes - which means your opinion is valid and don't mean any disrespect towards you or your opinion. As I said I like it and makes me happy and I like it.

Ultimately, it’s a minor gripe. Everything else looks amazing, and I expect to hardly even notice the grind is there.

I agree on that. I hope it feels cool and natural and we both enjoy the game

 

[Vinicius_Zoio]

Everything in the tree requires 1 Pantheon Point at this point in development. To unlock a item you need to have one of the connecting Nodes unlocked.

That gives you enough information to figure out the rest

Indeed it does, and Goemoe even did the math, already. Thank you for the quick reply, Jordi!

 

[Vinicius_Zoio]

On another note, to add to Heshin's take and TulajMnies comments...

I don't think this is an "entitlement" issue, at all. Overall, through the history of the series, this type customization was never "gated" or "offered" as a reward - or when it was not available, modders were quick to correct that.

In Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic, you could upload any picture you wish for your "Custom Wizard". All traits were available to you to customize from (all spheres, all ruler traits". In Age of Wonders III, cosmetics were "locked" to classes (your Warlord could not take a Dreadnought's armor, for example) - one of the most popular mods in Steamworks? The one that lets any leader use whatever cosmetic the player wants, regardless of class.

For a game that is marketing itself as the ultimate AoW experience and priding itself on is customization, "gating" some of that customization through a progression system probably isn't the most unambiguous decision ever.

We understand that there's multiple ways to gain that "Pantheon XP", but depending on the items gated, there may be one gripe or another with that system in place. Do races get "unlocked" through that system? If so, than that may mean that your favorite race may be behind some "levelling" system - which means you play with "less preferred" options before reaching whatever it is you want. We're already shown that some realms traits are in that progression system - so if you decide you want to play "frostlings in a frozen world" perhaps you will need to play something else before you get that experience...

Just as Heshin, I'm hoping that "grind" is barely perceptible (and if the progression is 15-22 games to a full unlock, that might be a balanced number), but I'm crossing my fingers that the gated content does not include anything I'd rather have at the beginning of the game.

Evidently, YMMV, but overall, I'm not thrilled to see such a a system implemented in this series.

 

[Entherian]

On another note, to add to Heshin's take and TulajMnies comments...

I don't think this is an "entitlement" issue, at all. Overall, through the history of the series, this type customization was never "gated" or "offered" as a reward - or when it was not available, modders were quick to correct that.

In Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic, you could upload any picture you wish for your "Custom Wizard". All traits were available to you to customize from (all spheres, all ruler traits". In Age of Wonders III, cosmetics were "locked" to classes (your Warlord could not take a Dreadnought's armor, for example) - one of the most popular mods in Steamworks? The one that lets any leader use whatever cosmetic the player wants, regardless of class.

For a game that is marketing itself as the ultimate AoW experience and priding itself on is customization, "gating" some of that customization through a progression system probably isn't the most unambiguous decision ever.

We understand that there's multiple ways to gain that "Pantheon XP", but depending on the items gated, there may be one gripe or another with that system in place. Do races get "unlocked" through that system? If so, than that may mean that your favorite race may be behind some "levelling" system - which means you play with "less preferred" options before reaching whatever it is you want. We're already shown that some realms traits are in that progression system - so if you decide you want to play "frostlings in a frozen world" perhaps you will need to play something else before you get that experience...

Just as Heshin, I'm hoping that "grind" is barely perceptible (and if the progression is 15-22 games to a full unlock, that might be a balanced number), but I'm crossing my fingers that the gated content does not include anything I'd rather have at the beginning of the game.

Evidently, YMMV, but overall, I'm not thrilled to see such a a system implemented in this series.

Yeah, my major concern is that a cultural or form trait that I'll really want to play with will also be locked deep down the Pantheon tree. Ultimately, we won't know for sure until we actually have the game and can poke at it ourselves, but it's not unreasonable to say, "I hope I can make the factions I want to make ASAP and don't have to wait through multiple playthroughs to get the right traits and customization."

 

[Vinicius_Zoio]

Yeah, my major concern is that a cultural or form trait that I'll really want to play with will also be locked deep down the Pantheon tree. Ultimately, we won't know for sure until we actually have the game and can poke at it ourselves, but it's not unreasonable to say, "I hope I can make the factions I want to make ASAP and don't have to wait through multiple playthroughs to get the right traits and customization."

Oh hellyeah, that's the adequate TL; DR to my posts! XD

 

[Kelben]

I do not understand. You guys only play one setup and repeat over 100s of hours? Always same form, same trait, same culture, etc...? The one setup that may require a progression unlock? The "frostlings over a frozen world" for example.

I find this a bit disingenuous. There are 5 story realms, i don't know how many challenge realms and all custom realms. Surely you can play "1001 nights on a desert planet" to unlock your frozen wasteland if ever that's require at all...

4X are games where creating your faction at the start of the game to enact your fantasies is an important step. Don't tell me you will create a single customized hero and play with always the same hero with the same customized map settings.

 

[Lord Sheogorath]

I do not understand. You guys only play one setup and repeat over 100s of hours? Always same form, same trait, same culture, etc...? The one setup that may require a progression unlock? The "frostlings over a frozen world" for example.

I find this a bit disingenuous. There are 5 story realms, i don't know how many challenge realms and all custom realms. Surely you can play "1001 nights on a desert planet" to unlock your frozen wasteland if ever that's require at all...

4X are games where creating your faction at the start of the game to enact your fantasies is an important step. Don't tell me you will create a single customized hero and play with always the same hero with the same customized map settings.

In Aow 3 I played most of the races (elf>dwarf>human=orc>frostling) except draconians, tigrans and halflings but only played two classes (sorcerer and rarely dreadnought). I also only ever setup one kind of map, continents with all types of climates of equal percentages, many treasure sites and few cities; I set up the map and never changed it. If I was forced to play races and classes i don't like it would feel more like a chore.

I'm not completely against the progression system but I have my reservations against it. The dev diaries were showcasing the interesting amount of customisations available only to reveal later that some of those will not be available from the start. Also there is no way to test any of the unlocks to see what they look like ingame. For example I unlock a new crown only to find it looking hideous whereas I could have unlocked a new terrain type or climate.

 

[Triumph Jordi]

The dev diaries were showcasing the interesting amount of customisations available only to reveal later that some of those will not be available from the start.

Nothing of what we've shown in Dev Diaries so far is unlocked through the Pantheon. That's all available from the start.

 

[Entherian]

I do not understand. You guys only play one setup and repeat over 100s of hours? Always same form, same trait, same culture, etc...? The one setup that may require a progression unlock? The "frostlings over a frozen world" for example.

I find this a bit disingenuous. There are 5 story realms, i don't know how many challenge realms and all custom realms. Surely you can play "1001 nights on a desert planet" to unlock your frozen wasteland if ever that's require at all...

4X are games where creating your faction at the start of the game to enact your fantasies is an important step. Don't tell me you will create a single customized hero and play with always the same hero with the same customized map settings.

What I'm saying is that we don't know and can't know if there are traits I might want for my first faction that aren't available because I'd need to go down multiple points on the Pantheon tree to get them. And yes, I can absolutely make other factions, but my enjoyment is still diminished, because the faction I wanted to start with, and learn the game with, will need to either be delayed until later or made in an incomplete form with one or more substitute traits. And in another thread, I've talked about wanting to make a villain faction that can show up in non-Story Realms. What if there are other traits I could give them that would suit my desired backstory for them but which I need to dig deep into the Pantheon to unlock?

Yes, I can always play other forms, traits, cultures, etc. but there will be some that I can't play until I unlock them through playtime. Nothing about this is disingenuous, we just clearly have different priorities. You want to just play games no matter what faction you're playing, I want to play games with specific custom factions that I come up with my own lore and backstories for.

 

[Lord Sheogorath]

Nothing of what we've shown in Dev Diaries so far is unlocked through the Pantheon. That's all available from the start.

I was talking about the Frozen Realm, it is a realm trait that needs to be unlocked by reaching pantheon level 4 right? So some other realm traits are further down the level. And the crown, if I unlocked it but didn't like how it looks I wasted points for nothing. I would like a preview of unlockable cosmetic items.

How many hours do you think is needed on average to unlock all the unlockables?

 

[Triumph Jordi]

I was talking about the Frozen Realm, it is a realm trait that needs to be unlocked by reaching pantheon level 4 right? So some other realm traits are further down the level. And the crown, if I unlocked it but didn't like how it looks I wasted points for nothing. I would like a preview of unlockable cosmetic items.

How many hours do you think is needed on average to unlock all the unlockables.

The Frozen Realm is a template/challenge Realm made by us, that is added to the list once your Pantheon reaches level 4. Some of the Traits that make Realm also become available for custom Realms. You still start with plenty of Challenge Realms and Realm Traits.

All of the items in the tree have icons that show what it looks like and the Hero Loadouts/Society Traits explain in the tooltips what they do. You're never making a blind choice.

 

[nvc for the soul]

The more I read and think about the Pantheon system, the more I like it. I imagine it a band of misfits, my band of misfits, fighting over the control of various realms. Would be interesting if there is a form of 'permadeath' option to higher the stakes (not sure if that works). Wondering if I have the control to kick someone out of my Pantheon (eg because of a bad performance ). It also feels appropriate to give my Godirs a nice new hat now and then as a present . Also the occasional new Challenge Realm is more than welcome, as long as they are different and/or extra challenging!

 

[Kelben]

You want to just play games no matter what faction you're playing, I want to play games with specific custom factions that I come up with my own lore and backstories for.

This is not correct. We both want to play the game with specific custom factions.

Where we see things differently is that I believe there will be plenty to do with what is initially available to create many specific custom factions without progression unlocks. And by the time we've had exhausted that via a few playthrough then we'll have unlocked yet new traits and cultures to embody others fantasies we may fancy.

I trust I have a large enough imaginations to work with the tools available at first.

 

[FungusMouse]

I don't think this is an "entitlement" issue, at all. Overall, through the history of the series, this type customization was never "gated" or "offered" as a reward - or when it was not available, modders were quick to correct that.

I'd argue that this very system was in place with Empire mode in Planetfall. You had to play and in fact do specific objectives for some factions to unlock their use with other factions, and it was more than cosmetic. Sure, it was content already unlocked with other factions, but if I wanted a good Dvar unit with my Amazons, it took some work. The system has rightfully received a lot of praise because it was fun, so it makes sense they're expanding on it.

I think I get you're point of view though, and I think we're in agree to disagree territory for now. Where you lose me a bit though is the disappointment in what's perceived to be available from the start; it's like you're disappointed the restaurant you're going to won't have something you like when you haven't even seen most of the menu. But I guess that's the fun of being here each week, the speculation, eh?

 

[aantia]

Not enough sandbox games have proper campaign progression like this, good stuff

 

[Vinicius_Zoio]

I'd argue that this very system was in place with Empire mode in Planetfall. You had to play and in fact do specific objectives for some factions to unlock their use with other factions, and it was more than cosmetic. Sure, it was content already unlocked with other factions, but if I wanted a good Dvar unit with my Amazons, it took some work. The system has rightfully received a lot of praise because it was fun, so it makes sense they're expanding on it.

I think I get you're point of view though, and I think we're in agree to disagree territory for now. Where you lose me a bit though is the disappointment in what's perceived to be available from the start; it's like you're disappointed the restaurant you're going to won't have something you like when you haven't even seen most of the menu. But I guess that's the fun of being here each week, the speculation, eh?

Oh no, I'm not disappointed from what we've seen so far, quite the contrary - as I have stated through multiple DDs, everything is sounding/looking awesome, to my tastes. Except this.

No the "amount of initial options", not the "hours needed to unlock content" - because these are unknown. But the idea itself, that such a progression will "add" to the game. From my experience, this generally doesn't add anything in the way of customization. IMHO, adding such "gated content" makes sense when it's desired by the designers to smooth a learning curve (learn this, before you can tackle this next challenge), but there's no real justification for gating "this nice hat" behind "this many hours of play" besides the nebulous sense of "pride & accomplishment".

The idea of such a progression is not a "thrill" for me because I have seen many games fail to create an acceptable pace for such content - sometimes, at a tremendous cost to their overall success. Dawn of War III had a disastrous launch because of that "grind" perception (and when they changed things, it was too late) and EA's Battlefront II faced similar backlash when it was discovered that it took 40 hours to unlock heroes like Darth Vader. Again, they also changed the pacing and the availability of heroes later, but it was too late.

I haven't played enough Planetfall to judge how much it's Empire system added to the overall "AoW experience", though.

Again, here's hoping that Triumph does it justice and manages to create a experience dissimilar to the plethora of current games that force players to play hours and hours to get to the content they want! o/

 

[Entherian]

(...) I haven't played enough Planetfall to judge how much it's Empire system added to the overall "AoW experience", though. (snip)

The unlocks in PF's Empire mode were almost purely to let you start with units, unit mods, or operations from other factions or secret techs. So it was a different thing from here, where you could have different empire-wide passive modifiers or cosmetic options for your leaders.

 

[Mithrill]

It might have been already answered in some form, but there are some things that I'd appreciate information about:

1. Are we limited to single Pantheon per game/profile or can we create and level up a few of them, like Galactic Empires in Planetfall? Asking mostly because I was really into making a themed Empires back then, keeping every leader and every conquest to a certain identity, like "a cabal of immortalists" or "twisted emissaries of eldritch horrors" and, if possible, I would like to keep those leaders and their spoils from interfering with each other.

2. It might be too late a suggestion, but would it be possible to record appearances and traits of Leaders and Heroes we encounter in the Realms and add them to the Pantheon? It would be fun to roleplay with having your former enemies corrupted/redeemed/enticed into joining your side.