• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Dev Diary #41: Feudal Culture

Greetings Giant Kings and other, more respectable Godir. I am Thomas Schuiten, Designer at Triumph and today I get to share with you the details of the rework to our oldest Culture: Feudal!

Alongside the release of Giant Kings on April 1st we are as always releasing a free update to the game alongside it, the Ogre Update, which features improved underground, lava gameplay, more options for your faction creation and most importantly for this particular development diary: a rework of the Feudal Culture.

1-FeudalRulerImage.png

Queen Lyanne is not to be trifled with. (ok maybe a little as a treat)

Why Feudal?​

So, why did we choose Feudal to be the next priority to update?
  • It is the oldest culture, made at the start of AoW4’s development, when our style and the implied “power level” of cultural units wasn't really laid down as strongly yet. Peasants started looking a bit odd sharing their tier with Dawn Defenders and other more professional unit themes.
  • Strategically they had very little going for them, at release they had the Feudal Lord hero skills which gave them a bit of identity, but didn’t really do much in the grand scheme of things. This was made even more glaring after the Hero rework which left no space for these old skills to be made available.
  • Lastly the fantasy of a Feudal empire was not really satisfied, no noble lords leading their house to war, and not enough cavalry or classic feudal associated units.

The goal then is to rework Feudal into a culture that can work as a solid, uncomplicated starting point, but also give enough for veterans and players who seek to go into that particular flavor something to sink their teeth into.

To achieve this, we’ve split Feudal into two subcultures:

Monarchy, where the ruler is absolute, an uncomplicated culture ideal for beginners that rewards keeping things simple, benefiting a playstyle focused on the Ruler’s armies and defense.

And Aristocracy, where each of your empire’s cities is host to a noble House, led by its governor, which each field cheap and effective armies under their banner.

I will tell you about these in detail further below, but first we must speak of the characteristics they share, the Feudal Culture as a whole.

Feudal as a Culture​

The Feudal culture represents the more “mundane” type of empire, it covers the classic fantasy trope of the more grounded kingdom as compared to the magic and otherworldliness around them.

Thus to start with we identified the key aspects of the Feudal “fantasy”, what are their associations?
  • The King’s divine right to rule
  • The Feudal Systems reliance on lesser lords and their levied armies.
  • Cavalry, Knights and Bannermen charging into battle.

When designing the Culture’s rework, we sought to ensure we could effectively represent these 3 fantasies in gameplay and theme.

The unit line-up of the Feudal culture has seen some pretty significant changes to accommodate these new themes. Perhaps most notably, their old passive effect “Stand Together” was removed, in favor of the benefits both subcultures grant their units based on their Monarch or Liege Lord.

2-StandTogether.png

Stand Together, the old feudal unit passive

Stand together worked in the sense that it created a specific type of gameplay, one where formations are vital to success. It however also had flaws; it made choosing form traits that grant other adjacency benefits a no-brainer and it was easy to accidentally lose the bonus by moving units in the wrong order.

Most importantly, it runs counter to the behavior one would expect or desire of a Cavalry focused culture, requiring the player to move their cavalry into melee range, send a second unit adjacent to them, before attacking with their charged cavalry unit to get the maximum benefit.

For the units, feudal had a unique feature in their tier 1 Peasant units, who evolved into Tier 2 Defenders upon reaching max rank. A clunky feature that could throw people off, as the unit's role would change between evolutions.

Moreover we judged that the concept of a Peasant of all things evolving into effectively the noble warrior class was simply counter to the very essence of the Feudal system. But as the gameplay implications were interesting we reworked it into something more natural and controllable: promotions.
These are contained within the new Aspirant traits, which function similarly to evolve but with two key differences: They do not benefit from effects that modify evolution (they are not evolving after all) and they require a particular condition to be met before they are able to promote into the higher tier unit.

3-AspirantKnightTrait.png

The Aspirant Knight trait, letting the Aspirant Knights promote into full Knights.

Unit Line-up​

Tier 1​

Militia (Formerly known as the Peasant)
4-MilitiaUnit.png


A tier 1 polearm unit, militia are weaker than most tier 1 units, but extremely cheap to maintain and obtain. Not able to be recruited in cities, but rather “summoned” through a strategic spell that creates two militia in the target owned city. A great way to get a new army up and running, or to scramble a defense!

Their visuals got updated as well to grant them a little more in the way of armor, representing their role as militia to fill out your ranks.

Scout
The scout is unchanged, remaining an uncomplicated scouting unit.

Defender
5-DefenderUnit.png


The Defender is now a Tier 1 unit, filling the role of the primary frontline combatant for Feudal cultures. They retain their heavy shield passive, ensuring they remain a stalwart, simple shield unit to keep the enemy at bay.

For the Aristocracy Subculture, the defender has the Aspirant: Liege Guard property, allowing them to be promoted into the Tier 3 Liege Guard unit when reaching max rank and the appropriate structure is built in the empire.

The Defender also gained “Optional Cavalry” letting them function as an early mounted unit for cavalry focused builds.

Archer
6-ArcherUnit.png


The Archer is a mainstay of the Feudal culture, the baseline ranged unit all others vary from. They have gotten a slight buff to help them fulfill a more synergetic role with the cavalry; their attacks now inflict Sundered Defense. Ensuring that the follow up charge of the nobles will hit all that much harder.

For the Monarchy Subculture, the archer has the Aspirant: Longbow property, allowing them to be promoted into the Tier 3 Longbow unit when reaching max rank and the appropriate structure is built in the empire.

Tier 2​

Bannerman
7-BannermanUnit.png


The Bannerman has long been an excellent support unit, AoE buffs provided it a powerful niche, though the way it functioned incentivized stacking up early to spread the buff, rather than being mobile as a cavalry culture would wish to be.

Thus a rework on them was necessary, but in a way that seeks to retain their theme.

The bannerman has a new passive effect; War Banner.
8-WarbannerProperty.png

This ensures the Bannerman is a constant benefit to the units it joins near the frontline, and though this effect doesn’t stack with other bannermen, it does stack with the benefits of Defense Mode: warding.

9-SoothingStandardAbility.png

Its abilities got rolled into a singular, low cooldown, touch range heal. This can be used every other turn, even while engaged. Healing the target, improving morale and putting the bannerman in defense mode, making them an even more effective anchor for their adjacent allies!

Lastly the Bannerman gained the “Optional Cavalry” trait, letting them follow the cavalry charge closely should you wish to lean into the cavalry theme harder.

Aspirant Knight
10-AspirantKnightUnit.png

The Aspirant knight may look familiar, mostly retaining the look of the old Feudal Tier 3 knight. The Aspirant Knight is instead a tier 2 shock cavalry unit with some unique benefits over other shock units, leaning into more of a skirmisher role than a full knight would.

Aspirant knights have exceptionally high damage for their tier, but they function best against isolated targets. Isolation Slayer means that their damage is reduced if they strike non-isolated targets, while Slippery gives them the ability to reposition rapidly and seek out those isolated targets.

11-AspirantKnightProperty.png

As their name implies, the Aspirant Knights uniquely are able to promote into a new unit. A Tier 4 shock unit, the Knight. This is the only way to acquire Knights, as they cannot be directly built, making them rare and valuable assets to your kingdom.

Tier 3​

Longbow (Monarchy Subculture)
12-LongbowUnit.png

A powerful ranged unit with an exceptionally long reach, not only do their base attacks have additional reach thanks to their “Longbow” trait, they also have access to the Longshot ability, a powerful full action shot that reaches out to a whopping 7 tiles away!

This range advantage lets them support even an aggressive cavalry charge and take down high value targets that other ranged units would struggle to strike.

Liege Guard (Aristocracy Subculture)

13-LiegeGuardUnit.png


The Liege guard are guardians of their Liege lord, sturdy and uncomplicated shield units, retaining the Heavy Shield property of their lesser colleagues, and uniquely having the Sworn Bond ability.

14-SwornBondAblity.png


The Liege Guard is the ideal protector of your valuable Heroes, able to suck up damage that would otherwise lay their mighty lord low and strengthen them in the process.

Tier 4​

Knight

15-KnightUnit.png

Yes you see that correctly, that is a cultural Tier 4 unit. The Knight is an archetype that we wanted to do more justice, especially for the Feudal culture where it is so quintessential.
The Knight is uncomplicated but potent, only accessible by the promotion of an Aspirant Knight unit. It retains the Slippery trait of its squires, but gains Giant Slayer in addition, ensuring that the valiant knight may be the one to strike down the beast.

Knights also gain Graceful Charge, letting them take engagements other shock units would potentially avoid. Lastly, Inspiring Killer lets them grant more morale for any opponent they successfully bring low!

Subculture: Monarchy​

16-MonarchIcon.png

Your rule is absolute, the people follow their Monarch and fight to defend them and their kingdom. Monarchy subculture is relatively uncomplicated, serving as a good introduction to the game while supporting the classic kingdom fantasy.

17-ForTheMonarchProperty.png


When playing as Monarchy all your units gain “For the Monarch”, a simple but always welcome boost to their effectiveness as long as they are either within the kingdom’s borders, or fighting in battle alongside their beloved Monarch.

18-MonarchsDominionProperty.png


In addition, the Monarch’s own army follows them without question, requiring no Upkeep for the privilege. This lets the Monarch field expensive units earlier, and form a powerful early economy.
Monarchy additionally has access to the Tier 3 Longbow unit, a powerful ranged unit that their Archers are able to Promote into if their service proves valuable enough.

City structures also vary for the monarchy, the Workshop and Blacksmith are replaced with the Militia Barracks and Royal Smith respectively, each granting additional stability to reinforce the Monarch’s rule. Their Unique structure, replacing the Lord’s Manor is the Retainer’s Estate, granting a powerful economic benefit as long as the city is connected to the throne city's domain.

19-RetainersEstateStructure.png


The special province improvement is the Farmstead, and is shared among both subcultures, and provides a very effective source of food for Monarchs or Liege’s who wish to grow their population rapidly.

20-FarmsteadProvinceImprovemt.png

21-FeudalMonarchyTome.png

Monarchy features three skills, 2 of which are shared with the Aristocracy as well and will be explained below.

22-CallToGlory.png


Call to Glory is available to both Feudal subcultures and provides a battlefield wide bonus to morale over the course of 3 turns, the seemingly small bonus stacks up rapidly with the amount of units it affects.

Call Militia has been discussed in the Militia unit’s section, suffice to say it is a cheap, gold-costing Strategic Summon spell that can only target friendly cities. This gives a quick influx of expendable tier 1 Militia units to defend your kingdom or rapidly replace losses during your campaigns.

Lastly, uniquely for the Monarchy subculture there is the Monarch’s Decree. A combat enchantment that lets the units on the battlefield know they fight with the blessing of their monarch, activating “For the Monarch” for 2 turns as though the monarch themselves were on the field. A useful tool for when the Monarch is busy elsewhere.

Subculture: Aristocracy​

23-AristocracyIcon.png


The lords and ladies muster on the fields of battle, their house banners flying high over their armies. Each ready to follow their Ruler’s house to war.
The Aristocracy subculture places emphasis on each house and their own armies, with each of your Liege Lords fielding their own army to take the field in your name.

Playing Feudal Aristocracy is a balancing act, requiring investment in multiple cities, and balancing the capability of each city to recruit and field their own house armies, which follow their Lord or Lady into battle.

In the most simple of gameplay terms, this functions as the following:
  • Each Feudal city in your empire has its own Feudal House, led by that city’s Governor, who becomes its Liege Lord.
  • Units produced in these cities become part of that Feudal House, gaining Experience as their Liege Lord gains Renown.
  • When a unit is in battle with the Liege Lord of its house, it gains powerful bonuses that scale with their Liege Lord’s renown.
The basic effect this has is that your heroes become much more important, since their Renown improves their army as well as the city they govern. Match each Liege Lord with an army of their house and reap the benefits!

24-HouseFoundingPopup.png

When you first assign a governor to a city the new House is born, it’s given a name and banner that you can edit any time to make them what you want them to be. Note that any units produced in that city before this point will still join this house, so no need to wait with starting to draft your new house’s army!

25-HouseCustomization.png

You can change the name, emblem and secondary color of any house at any time to be what you want them to be!

26-HousesonCities.png

The banner and sigil of the house will be visible in the army panel as well as on the city, letting you easily match which units follow which ruler (also a neat little detail is that it calls out which house the army belongs to).

The Liege Lords give benefit to both their own army and any units of their house that may join them on the field of battle. Units in their army that share the same house gain increased regeneration and reduced upkeep, while any unit of their house in a battle alongside their Liege Lord gains increased max HP and Morale. Both of these benefits increase as the Liege Lord gains higher Renown levels, so show your Lieges the way to glory and they will bring you victory!

27-LiegeLordProperty.png


The Feudal House mechanic has a bunch of complicated rules under the hood that you won’t have to know of as intimately. But I will call out a few here regardless since they were explicitly included in this design to make the experience as natural as possible:
  • Summoned Units and Units gained through pickups or events join the House of the nearest non-scout led army.
    • If the unit is summoned in the domain of a city, it will always join that city’s House instead.
  • Units recruited through Rally of the Lieges join the House of the city they were sent to, letting you reinforce your noble houses through your Vassals.
  • If a House’s city is lost, captured by the enemy or destroyed, it remains the home of that House and must be retaken if they are to gain new members. The Liege Lord and their units remain however, and still get the benefits from fighting alongside their Liege Lord, letting them quest to retake their ancestral home!
    • Even if another empire absorbs it, as long as you retake it and absorb it once more, the house is restored.
  • If a Liege Lord is replaced, the city and units of that house will suffer a Stability/morale penalty for a few turns as they adjust to the sudden change in leadership.
    • Note that a Hero remains the Liege Lord even in death, in case they are revived. They have to be actively replaced should you wish to do so.
  • The Liege lords themselves benefit from the morale and HP bonus they grant their house as they gain renown.
  • Units built in a city before it has its governor assigned (and thus “founds” the house) are still assigned to that house, it just isn’t visible until the house is founded. Thus units built in a house city before the house is founded will still join that house as one would expect.

These rules are complicated if you go in depth, but as a player you will not have to think of these, the experience should work as you expect it to, supporting the fantasy of a kingdom of noble houses naturally.

Economically the Aristocracy subculture leans more into Food and Draft than the Monarchy does, since they want to get new cities up and running quickly to field their House armies. They have alternate structures for the Store House and Granary; the House Hunting grounds and Serf Quarters, each giving Draft in addition to their regular food benefit to help the house field its new army quickly.

Their unique structure is a redesign of the old Feudal Lord’s Manor:

28-LordsManorStructure.png

This is quite a hefty bonus for a Renowned governor, befitting their status as the House’s Liege Lord.

29-FeudalAristocracyTome.png

Aristocracy shares most of its research skills with the Monarchy, but uniquely has access to Hold the Line.

30-HoldtheLineSpell.png

This is a unique buff spell, letting you prepare for an incoming charge or otherwise augment your defense for the upcoming enemy turn while still dishing out the damage with your units.

And that should be it for the Feudal Culture, they are relatively straightforward in both their units and mechanics, and should reward a playstyle that leans into their themes.
If you wish to create an equivalent to Rohan, the kingdoms of Westeros, a classical fantasy kingdom or anything in between or beyond, this should be the culture for you!

I sincerely hope you enjoy playing with it and find your conquests interesting. May your reign be prosperous!

Next week we will take another peek into Bas’s mind, as he elaborates on the Lava and Underground gameplay updates. All of that (and this Feudal rework) will be in the Ogre update, if you play the game through Steam there is currently an Open Beta available if you wish to give it a try early. Otherwise, you wont have to be patient for too much longer as it is releasing for everyone for free alongside Giant Kings on April 1st!

Giant it up with us on social media:
 

Attachments

  • Forum Header.png
    Forum Header.png
    979,7 KB · Views: 0
  • 34Like
  • 26Love
  • 2
Reactions:
Why? Reasons have been put forward by myself and others that SHOW the issue.

And I simply disagree that it destroys the balance.

I am not arguing about the fact that the Tome of Evolution would have strong synergy with the Feudal Culture, if the Aspirants remained Evolutions, as they very well should do. I am simply of the mind that this strong synergy does not mean that everyone who wants to play the Feudal Culture in Multiplayer simply has to take the Tome of Evolution, otherwise they should not be playing the Feudal Culture at all.

I even bolded a key line in my last post:

Indeed, and I edited my post to showcase that this is not true.

Your culture should not bias you towards a specific tome, or it will stifle tome diversity for that culture. Sub-cultures biased towards tomes would be bad enough.

I mean, they already do? Barbarian's with Vision of Victory and Savage Strike push you towards Tomes that help land or empower critical hits. While Reavers work well with the Tome of the Horde (the Houndmaster does extra damage to marked targets, and the hound they summon can help mark targets) and the Tome of the Dreadnought (as that has great spells for marking).

In fact, even this new claim of yours:

No other culture has a tome that provides a spell that directly buffs/multiplies their cultural mechanic. None.

Is very much incorrect, as previously stated, the Tome of Dreadnought has spells while buff/multiplying the Marks that the Reavers are so skilled at utilizing. I would also look at the Primal Culture as well. Not only is one of their greatest strengths are animal summons, and does not the Tome of Beast have a spell that empowers animals? Furthermore, the Primal Culture is split into subcultures that unlock synergy with different terrians. Would the Tome of Paradie's Enchanted Bloom and Tome of Nature's Wrath Destructive Regrowth be spells that work exceptionally well alongside the Sylvan Wolf? The Enchanted Bloom even works with the Tunnelling Spider. Or what about the Tome of Cold Dark's Marching Winter spell for the Glacial Mammoth?

Sorry to say, but your arguments about Cultures do not, and should not have Tomes that work strongly with their cultural abilities is absolutely incorrect and easy to discredit.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
1) Primal culture and terrains. Huge stretch here. Considering that they automatically get a mechanic to handle terraforming, and spells that add terraforming are much later in the trees (-mountains is tier 3, forest is tier 3, etc).

2) Reavers & spells that mark. Reavers already have a spell that applies 2 Marked to a single target. Dreadnought gives two nice big AoEs that apply (1) Marked, but that's actually less good at enabling them to focus a target down. Plus, again, Tier 3. Not Tier 1, so it's going to be less of an influence on that regard as well.

So no, these two examples do not contradict what I've stated. Dreadnought is certainly a potential nice pick for Reavers, but it doesn't enable them to apply marks more impactfully than their base spell does. Furthermore, these are combat spells, meaning you can't just "use both". If you cast Pinning Barrage, you can't use those casting points on Designate Target anymore.

Primal is a bit closer, as you're talking about World layer spells that are permanent. And they absolutely do improve your ability to terraform faster. But a few problems there. Terrain type is NOT the core feature of Primal. Not even #2. The core feature is the Boon mechanic (which no spells replicate). Their secondary feature is negating the penalties of their terrain type - so that they aren't punished for actually doing their terraforming. Feature #3 is the actual terraforming, and the minor resource boost they get when they have those terraformed spots inside their domain. If you start as Dune Serpent, you're not facing a resource malus by expanding into the grasslands early. In fact, many times it's advantageous to *not* terraform a tile, in order to control what type of structure you can build (such as forester improvements).

And on a final note, editing your prior post *after* I was already typing up my response to it and then blaming me for not seeing the change is just ridiculous.
I am simply of the mind that this strong synergy does not mean that everyone who wants to play the Feudal Culture in Multiplayer simply has to take the Tome of Evolution, otherwise they should not be playing the Feudal Culture at all.

So, "play the game the way I want to play it, or don't play at all". Got it. Your idea of personal lore is more important than balancing a game to allow multiplayer lobbies to flourish.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
1) Primal culture and terrains. Huge stretch here. Considering that they automatically get a mechanic to handle terraforming, and spells that add terraforming are much later in the trees (-mountains is tier 3, forest is tier 3, etc).

Not really. The spells I talk about aren't Terraforming spells, but spells that give you bonuses for having the Terraforming. Plus, I see you completely ignored the fact that Primal's go heavily on animal summons, so animal buffs are natural synergies there as well.

2) Reavers & spells that mark. Reavers already have a spell that applies 2 Marked to a single target. Dreadnought gives two nice big AoEs that apply (1) Marked, but that's actually less good at enabling them to focus a target down.

And? It gives you an option between Marking 1 target or Marking an AoE? Its a good tactical option and can be more impactful at times. Therefore, it is synergy.

Plus, again, Tier 3. Not Tier 1, so it's going to be less of an influence on that regard as well.

Which has not been mentioned in your previous discussions at all. Nice example of moving the goalposts.

So no, these two examples do not contradict what I've stated.

Yes. They do. They absolutely, unarguably, 100%, do.

And on a final note, editing your prior post *after* I was already typing up my response to it and then blaming me for not seeing the change is just ridiculous.

Oh and now I'm somehow meant to know when you are typing up your response? Because nowhere in my post was I "blaming" you for anything. I was simply acknowledging the fact that you had missed my edit.
 
Personally, I'm less bothered by tome synergy the later tier a tome is.

The strongest synergy you'll have guaranteed access to for the new Feudal culture is probably Ascended Warriors from Tome of Exaltation, however that is T4. Tome of the Dreadnought is really good with Reavers, but it's T3. I can't think of another T1 (and therefore starting) synergy nearly as strong as Tome of Evolution would be if the Feudal units actually used Evolve instead of a functional clone.

One may exist, I just can't think of it. It being T1 means you can start with it, and even if you CAN pick other options I just don't think any of them have a real argument in their favor - they would all be suboptimal, suboptimal is just obviously something you CAN still do.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Personally, I'm less bothered by tome synergy the later tier a tome is.

The strongest synergy you'll have guaranteed access to for the new Feudal culture is probably Ascended Warriors from Tome of Exaltation, however that is T4. Tome of the Dreadnought is really good with Reavers, but it's T3. I can't think of another T1 (and therefore starting) synergy nearly as strong as Tome of Evolution would be if the Feudal units actually used Evolve instead of a functional clone.

One may exist, I just can't think of it. It being T1 means you can start with it, and even if you CAN pick other options I just don't think any of them have a real argument in their favor - they would all be suboptimal, suboptimal is just obviously something you CAN still do.
Exactly.

AoW4 is a game of snowballing. Early good and production drops are HUGE for speeding up your capital size & infrastructure (this is why Fabled Hunters is a popular multiplayer pick - if snowballing wasn't so powerful, Fabled Hunters would be pretty low tier in terms of society traits). One of the biggest hurdles in the game is unit production paired with unit upkeep. Tier 4 units are really good, as are tier 5. But they are very expensive to maintain.

As given in this update, Feudal fixes both of those. A tier 3 unit rush, where the knight aspirants have zero upkeep is already going to be fairly strong, since that means you can field a second strong army, or just have massive income (which you can use for, say, rush building structures). Units that evolve to tier 4 or 5 (dragons and the higher tier spiders) are normally offset by the huge jump in upkeep. If you take Tome of the Dragon and build lots of young dragons, your upkeep may be fine, and then half of them become Legends and evolve up to full-fledged dragons, and suddenly you're bleeding resources like crazy.

I think, as is, the 'notevolve' path for Feudal, combined with the upkeep reductions (especially Monarchy's 100%) are going to be quite strong for early game power rush. Having Slip Away on the tier 1 units, and access to a 36 point heal & double-strengthen as well greatly increases the ability for those units to survive battles and get their promotions.

Last game I played, I started with Slither research (from Evolution), got it on turn 4, followed by starting Rapid Evolution Enchantment. Proceeded to build 5 of them one at a time. Had my first ugpraded (tier 3) on turn 23.

If that was Feudalism, I could have been working on units from turn 1, and research Rapid Evolution first, meaning I'd be hitting tier 3 by turn 20 (and without the 16 gold per tier 3 unit upkeep). That then, of course, means a large army power spike (over 100 power per tier 3), letting you claim stronger rewards, and fund your tier 3 town upgrade quickly. If you're producing Knight Aspirants by turn 25-30, that means you'll be hitting tier 4 units by turn 50 or so, without further recruitment cost or upkeep.

Even without Rapid Evolution, I think that strategy (delayed by 5-15 turns) is already looking fairly good, especially since the tier 4 units join you at the front line, and get fully healed. But if you have 2 people playing Feudal, and one took Evolution and the other didn't, that 5-15 turn window will be the time the second player strikes with tier 4 units. No other tier 1 tome would make up for the tier difference, especially considering the 2nd player will have finished their 2nd tome by then as well (so they will have a still-useful tome to pair with their fully-trained units).
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions:
So I did play a feudal faction with tome of evolution and tome of the horde before the hero reqork.

It made for some strong peasants, but much of that came from the hero skills (Shepard and battle Seeker Training) which gave those peasants rather good stats for the cost. However these skills no longer exist.

What still exists is the ability of the Tome of Evolution to keep your evolving units alive and help them level up. Now that is an advantage for certain and new feuudal gets T3 and T4 units from evolve, so it does help build an army that lasts. But while it saves on recruitment costs, evolve/aspire isn't just a new unit, as it functionally removes the old one, meaning you do not have that legend Rank T1 or T2 unit you would have when recruiting that unit directly (which are theoretically equivalent to T3 & T4 units. So basically you get an increase in upkeep for the ability to keep your units leveling to double champion.

Given so far the Tome of Tvolution hasn't been broken in MP (as far as I know) and similar value units exist in animals and elementals, establishing that it would be an issue with new feudal IMO needs more than the existing obvious synergy.
 
So I did play a feudal faction with tome of evolution and tome of the horde before the hero reqork.

It made for some strong peasants, but much of that came from the hero skills (Shepard and battle Seeker Training) which gave those peasants rather good stats for the cost. However these skills no longer exist.

What still exists is the ability of the Tome of Evolution to keep your evolving units alive and help them level up. Now that is an advantage for certain and new feuudal gets T3 and T4 units from evolve, so it does help build an army that lasts. But while it saves on recruitment costs, evolve/aspire isn't just a new unit, as it functionally removes the old one, meaning you do not have that legend Rank T1 or T2 unit you would have when recruiting that unit directly (which are theoretically equivalent to T3 & T4 units. So basically you get an increase in upkeep for the ability to keep your units leveling to double champion.

Given so far the Tome of Tvolution hasn't been broken in MP (as far as I know) and similar value units exist in animals and elementals, establishing that it would be an issue with new feudal IMO needs more than the existing obvious synergy.
What you may have missed here is that the Monarch branch has free upkeep on the ruler's army.

Normally, evolve is kept more under control because the upkeep increases, so although the unit improves the cost becomes more prohibitive the earlier you pull it off.

A Monarchy faction with Tome of Evolution will get the power increase but, critically, NOT get an upkeep increase on that first army - which is, coincidentally, the one that will matter the most.

I would also say that a Legend ranked unit is nowhere near a two tier jump in power. I'd much rather a Recruit T4 than a Legend T2. I think it's much closer to 1.5 tiers higher - their durability scales up much more than one tier, but their damage scales up much less than two. Compare Anvil Guard and Bastion, both shield units belonging to Industrial - the Legend Anvil Guard will actually be a bit more durable than the Recruit Bastion, but it will already do less damage by a pretty significant amount. As soon as the Bastion gains a single rank, the gap starts widening in favor of the Bastion.

It's also worth noting that, again, if you start with Tome of Evolution you will normally NOT start with Evolve units. With new Feudal, even if you aren't a Monarchy, you will - which shaves off a few more turns to get those unit upgrades.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
What you may have missed here is that the Monarch branch has free upkeep on the ruler's army.

Normally, evolve is kept more under control because the upkeep increases, so although the unit improves the cost becomes more prohibitive the earlier you pull it off.

A Monarchy faction with Tome of Evolution will get the power increase but, critically, NOT get an upkeep increase on that first army - which is, coincidentally, the one that will matter the most.

I would also say that a Legend ranked unit is nowhere near a two tier jump in power. I'd much rather a Recruit T4 than a Legend T2. I think it's much closer to 1.5 tiers higher - their durability scales up much more than one tier, but their damage scales up much less than two. Compare Anvil Guard and Bastion, both shield units belonging to Industrial - the Legend Anvil Guard will actually be a bit more durable than the Recruit Bastion, but it will already do less damage by a pretty significant amount. As soon as the Bastion gains a single rank, the gap starts widening in favor of the Bastion.

It's also worth noting that, again, if you start with Tome of Evolution you will normally NOT start with Evolve units. With new Feudal, even if you aren't a Monarchy, you will - which shaves off a few more turns to get those unit upgrades.
Exactly the reply I was going to make.

You start with 1 or more of your tier 1 unit that can advance to tier 3. You don't need to finish a tome to unlock your tier 3->4 unit, you just have to get your 2nd city core upgrade finished.

That's a lot of turns shaved off reaching tier 4 - and the lack of upkeep means that you can potentially run 3-5 of them in your army without breaking the bank. And it also means you're hitting those tier 3 culture units even faster, since you've been earning xp on them from the very first turns.

I'd made the point in an earlier post that the main things restricting the powerful dragons are that they come in a tier 3 tome (so 5th tome at fastest), meaning that long before you can recruit them in the first place. Then when you evolve them up, their upkeep skyrockets. They're largely kept in check, because tier 4 tomes already can be granting tier 5 unit access - so an early researched and evolve Dragon is only a bit ahead of someone who went for a tier 4 tome with a tier 5 unit in it.

In contrast, Aspirant Knights come online typically before you finish your 2nd tome, and tier 4 units don't unlock until Tier 3 tomes. Which means you have about a .5 tome head start, relative to what dragons provide via evolution (Dragons have a 1 tome head start, Knights 1.5 - but both require that Legend rank progression).
 
  • 1
Reactions:
What you may have missed here is that the Monarch branch has free upkeep on the ruler's army. [...]

So the issue is not how the Tome interacts with Feudal aristocracy or non-ruler armies in feudal monarchy, but how specifiacally the this monarchy feature synergizes very well with something that helps units evolve faster?

Do you apply the same issue then with Tome of the beast, which allows you to recruit T1 & T2 evolve units that don't require your city to upgrade to tier up?
 
So the issue is not how the Tome interacts with Feudal aristocracy or non-ruler armies in feudal monarchy, but how specifiacally the this monarchy feature synergizes very well with something that helps units evolve faster?

Do you apply the same issue then with Tome of the beast, which allows you to recruit T1 & T2 evolve units that don't require your city to upgrade to tier up?
Something like that was the argumentation for removal of Hunter Spider from Sanctuary. (it was T2 that evolved in to T4, well still is just not from that SPI now)
 
So the issue is not how the Tome interacts with Feudal aristocracy or non-ruler armies in feudal monarchy, but how specifiacally the this monarchy feature synergizes very well with something that helps units evolve faster?

Do you apply the same issue then with Tome of the beast, which allows you to recruit T1 & T2 evolve units that don't require your city to upgrade to tier up?
No, it's an extremely synergistic starting tome regardless because of the parts of that post you cropped out.
 
So the issue is not how the Tome interacts with Feudal aristocracy or non-ruler armies in feudal monarchy, but how specifiacally the this monarchy feature synergizes very well with something that helps units evolve faster?

Do you apply the same issue then with Tome of the beast, which allows you to recruit T1 & T2 evolve units that don't require your city to upgrade to tier up?
The problem with this argument is that there are VERY few T2 units that evolve to T4, plus they require RNG via the Summon Animal spell.

And even then, unless you're feudal, you're paying full upkeep for those T4 units once you get them, which puts a huge dent in your income.

Feudal is (hopefully) balanced around it's mechanics. Regardless, it will be a strong early game faction due to Aspirants.

But adding Tome of Evolution synergy speeds the acquisition of those units up even further, especially in multiplayer where you're reliant on auto-battles (and the AI is TERRIBLE about trying to keep melee units alive). ToE gives your tier 1 units Slip Away, a massive survival boost, as well as a 36 point heal (and Strengthen 2). It's not even the *strong* of a tome overall, but if it gets you your upgraded units 5-10 turns faster, you can press that advantage into a huge snowball BECAUSE of the lack of upkeep.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
No denying that Tome of Evolution + Feudal, if the Aspirant units evolved would be a strong synergy and tome/culture combination.

It's just been a difference of how impactful this combination would end up being. Some people think it would be game-warping because you have to balance for multiplayer, and everyone would immediately start playing Feudal Evolution if it was allowed. Others disagree because the other cultures have their own strengths, and even among multiplayer, not everyone is competitive so why should the game be balanced exclusively around them?

That, and Aspirant instead of Evolution is just extra bloat.
 
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
No denying that Tome of Evolution + Feudal, if the Aspirant units evolved would be a strong synergy and tome/culture combination.

It's just been a difference of how impactful this combination would end up being. Some people think it would be game-warping because you have to balance for multiplayer, and everyone would immediately start playing Feudal Evolution if it was allowed. Others disagree because the other cultures have their own strengths, and even among multiplayer, not everyone is competitive so why should the game be balanced exclusively around them?

That, and Aspirant instead of Evolution is just extra bloat.
Do you play multiplayer at all, to speak or voice an opinion about multiplayer?

Or are you just shooting from the hip based 100% on single player experience?

'Others disagree'? Those 'others' aren't playing multiplayer. They're free to their opinion, but unbalancing multiplayer just to satisfy their (your) ideals about RP sensibility and "bloat" (1 new mechanic is bloat now? Where were you for the dozens of other abilities that've been added since launch) is just inane.

Listen to the people playing multiplayer online with strangers (not LAN with the same friends you always play with) speak. They know what they're talking about, because they are the ones living that life.

You say that it wouldn't skew multiplayer. Yet, anyone who actually plays online multiplayer AoW4 KNOWS how one or two imbalanced faction items will skew things significantly.

I don't mind at all if you want to point out single player issues or concerns. But your comment comes off as if you're ALSO an expert on multiplayer matches, which I'd put real money that you aren't, given your adamant nature that "people will play whatever is fun, not what is OP".
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
Do you play multiplayer at all, to speak or voice an opinion about multiplayer?

Or are you just shooting from the hip based 100% on single player experience?

'Others disagree'? Those 'others' aren't playing multiplayer. They're free to their opinion, but unbalancing multiplayer just to satisfy their (your) ideals about RP sensibility and "bloat" (1 new mechanic is bloat now? Where were you for the dozens of other abilities that've been added since launch) is just inane.

Listen to the people playing multiplayer online with strangers (not LAN with the same friends you always play with) speak. They know what they're talking about, because they are the ones living that life.

You say that it wouldn't skew multiplayer. Yet, anyone who actually plays online multiplayer AoW4 KNOWS how one or two imbalanced faction items will skew things significantly.

I don't mind at all if you want to point out single player issues or concerns. But your comment comes off as if you're ALSO an expert on multiplayer matches, which I'd put real money that you aren't, given your adamant nature that "people will play whatever is fun, not what is OP".
To the point, it will unbalance singleplayer too.

If you can have something of X power, or of 3X power, it's unreasonable to say "just don't pick it." It shouldn't be that strong, in singleplayer OR multiplayer, and they made sure in advance it won't be by NOT giving them the Evolve keyword that wouldn't make sense on these units anyway.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
Do you play multiplayer at all, to speak or voice an opinion about multiplayer?

Yes. I do, in fact, play Multiplayer.

I am done with this conversation. My post was a simple 'Agree to disagree' post, and you not only Xed it, but have now posted an extremely condescending and aggressively voiced reply, and I am not going to be talked down to, simply because we disagree about how powerful and meta-warping it would be to allow the Feudal Aspirant units to benefit from the Tome of Evolution.

You have proven yourself utterly incapable of having a reasonable discussion. Enjoy the ignore list.
 
Yes. I do, in fact, play Multiplayer.

I am done with this conversation. My post was a simple 'Agree to disagree' post, and you not only Xed it, but have now posted an extremely condescending and aggressively voiced reply, and I am not going to be talked down to, simply because we disagree about how powerful and meta-warping it would be to allow the Feudal Aspirant units to benefit from the Tome of Evolution.

You have proven yourself utterly incapable of having a reasonable discussion. Enjoy the ignore list.
Because you have provided ZERO actual rationale or logic behind your posts.

Nothing you have said has provided any indication that you play multiplayer, because the only thing in any of your posts is a vague "no bro, it won't unbalance things, trust me."

Others, including myself, have shown a chain of logic, and referenced what actually occurs in multiplayer - in this game as well as others - supporting the statement that it will lead to lobsided culture choice, and/or lobsided tome choice within that culture choice. Neither of which is healthy for the game.

If you don't want to be talked down to, *explain* your position as if you were presenting to a board of potential investors, or a pane of scientists. You have to SHOW them why your opinion is correct. The evidence. The theory. The foundation your opinion is built upon.

And btw, I was not condescending. I was dismissive. I was not speaking to you like a child, I was speaking to you like you wandered into a room full of rocket scientists and were waving your PhD in marine biology as you championed your opinion about rocket science.
 
  • 2
Reactions: