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Dev Diary #47 - Conversion and Assimilation

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Happy Thursday! Today our topic returns to Pop mechanics, with a discussion around some of the finer details on how Pops may change their religion and culture over time depending on your nation’s legal system. The mechanics themselves are quite straightforward, but as always in Victoria 3, the applications of them can have quite different outcomes in different situations.

Let’s begin by reviewing the mechanics around Discrimination, since this will be important later in the discussion. We’ve already talked about most of this in other dev diaries but some details here may be new.
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Discriminated Pops have barely any Political Strength and cannot vote. This means the only way they can impact your country’s politics is by agitating for change through Political Movements, or by starting a civil war for self-rule through a Cultural Secession. In addition to being hamstrung politically, they also get paid substantially less than their non-discriminated counterparts, have a harder time developing Qualifications for certain Professions, and their presence in your country is a potential source of radicalism and Turmoil.

Whether a Pop is discriminated against or accepted depends on who they are, the national identity of the country they live in, and the laws of that country. Both culture and religion are potential reasons for discrimination, and these are controlled by different laws. Your Citizenship laws determine which Pops are discriminated against on the basis of their culture, while your Church and State laws determine which forms of worship are considered acceptable in your country. To be considered non-discriminated by these laws, Pops must pass a more or less stringent selection criteria based on how much they differ from the primary culture(s) and state religion in the country.

For example, under the Racial Segregation Citizenship law, only Pops whose culture’s heritage trait matches that of their primary cultures heritage trait will be accepted. The heritage trait indicates which region of the world the culture originates from (e.g. European, African, Indigenous American), and under this law that is the only thing that matters - whether the Pops speak the same language, or are both transplants in the New World, is unimportant in determining their status. By contrast, under Cultural Exclusion, any similarity between a Pop’s culture and one of the primary ones qualifies them as equal under the law.

The total set of options are:

Ethnostate: only Pops of primary cultures are accepted
National Supremacy: Pops whose cultures share both heritage and another trait are accepted
Racial Segregation: Pops of the same heritage are accepted
Cultural Exclusion: Pops whose cultures share any similarities are accepted
Multiculturalism: no cultures are discriminated against

State Religion: only Pops who adhere to the state religion are accepted
Freedom of Conscience: Pops who adhere to a religion in the same family as the state religion are accepted (e.g. any branch of Christianity, any form of Buddhist)
Total Separation: no religions are discriminated against

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The practical impact of these laws therefore depends on what the state religion and primary cultures of your country are, as well as who actually lives in your country. An Ethnostate operates no differently in practice than a Multicultural state if only Pops of primary cultures live there. Since Pops are unlikely to mass migrate to your country if they’d be oppressed there once they arrived, until you expand your borders and populace by force you may not see a practical difference (except for a curious lack of immigrants). But if you were to form a Customs Union with a poorer neighbor, resulting in a lot of economic migration within the market to your country, you might have to deal with substantial political strife until you take steps to loosen up your Citizenship laws. If the option exists for you, as an alternative you might consider attempting to unify your nations instead (which we’ll learn more about next week) in order to accept both cultures as “primary”.

Alright, now that we’ve cleared up how countries can adapt to the Pops, we will consider how Pops might adapt to their country.

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First let’s tackle Religious Conversion. Pops who are discriminated against on the basis of their religion will always be in the process of converting to an accepted religion. The religion they convert to is not necessarily the state religion, though - it could be any accepted religion that is dominant in the state where they live. An Indigenous American following an Animist religion in a United States with Freedom of Conscience instead of Total Separation is eventually going to convert to some form of Christianity to avoid religious persecution, but if they live in a Nebraska that has been settled by predominantly Catholic rather than Protestant Pops, they would convert to Catholicism even though Protestantism is the dominant religion in the nation as a whole.

Pops convert at a percentage-based rate, currently set to a base of 0.2% / month (as usual, numbers such as these are subject to balancing and change before release, and are always moddable). A percentage-based conversion rate naturally means a diminishing number of actual converts over time, so at this rate it would take almost 30 years for ½ of your discriminated population to convert. If you find this rate too ponderous for your strategic goals, you have two primary tools at your disposal to speed it up.

The Religious School System law + institution combination increases this rate by +20% per investment level, up to a potential maximum of +100% (i.e. twice the speed). It also increases the Education Access of Pops overall and increases the Clout of the Devout Interest Group.

The other method is the Promote National Values decree. Like all decrees, it is issued in a certain state and costs Authority for each state it is issued in, so in a larger country you will have to focus your efforts. Promote National Values doubles the rate of both conversion and assimilation.

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Using a combination of both methods, you could speed up religious conversion such that ½ of a minority population can be converted to an accepted religion within the span of a 10 years. Of course, your school system only extends to incorporated states, so if you’re trying to mass convert Pops in conquered land or colonies you will have to do so by decree - or embark on the often lengthy and painstaking process of incorporating a part of the world that’s culturally alien to your country.

This leads us to cultural assimilation. The conditions for assimilation are a little more complex than conversion, and in some ways operate by the reverse logic. In order to start assimilating, a Pop must already be culturally accepted. After all, if they can’t get citizenship, can’t vote, can’t participate in politics, can’t get paid a fair wage on the basis of who they are, there simply is no way for them to assimilate - by which we mean, integrate themselves into a primary culture such that they are both accepted as such by others and genuinely consider themselves part of that culture. Renouncing one’s religious beliefs and practices can be a very practical and concrete choice, but adopting and being adopted by a different culture is not a utilitarian decision.

In addition, Pops will never change culture if they live in a state they consider their Homeland. A Franco-Canadian in Ontario might over time adopt the ways and tongue of their Anglo-Canadian neighbors, but a Franco-Canadian who resides in Quebec?! Plutôt mourir!

(And of course, if a confederated Canada has been created with both Anglo- and Franco-Canadian as primary cultures, none of those types of Pops would be changing cultures in the first place.)

If a Pop should be assimilating, the culture they will be assimilating into will always be a primary culture. This is because, again, this is not a practical decision that’s just up to the Pop in question, but a two-way-street of assimilation into the dominant national identity. In the case of countries with multiple primary cultures, the one selected will be the Homeland of the state the Pop lives in, or in case none or several apply, the dominant one among Pops who already live there. A Czech Pop living in a unified Germany (North + South German) in the state of Silesia (North German and Polish Homelands) will assimilate into the North German culture; if they lived in Bavaria they would be assimilating into the South German culture; and if they lived in Bohemia they would not assimilate at all, since Bohemia is a not only a South German but also a Czech Homeland. If this Pop instead lived in Transylvania (with both Hungarian and Romanian primary cultures and Homelands), they would be assimilating into whichever of those cultures is more dominant in the part of Transylvania where they live.

The rate of assimilation is the same as for religion, 0.2% per month. As mentioned, the Promote National Values decree can be used to double this rate on a per-state basis. In addition, a Public School System will provide an increased assimilation rate of +12.5% per investment level, representing perhaps a less overt approach to indoctrination than their religious counterparts. With maximum effort, this means you can assimilate half of a minority population in about 18 years.

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I’ll end on a small design note. While our primary motivation while developing these mechanics was to provide a logical and believable simulation, a nice side effect of the asymmetry between conversion and assimilation is that there’s no way to benefit from both without an asymmetry in your laws as well. An inclusive, accepting, discrimination-free society won’t also become religiously homogeneous over time, nor will an oppressive, xenophobic country be able to assimilate their cultural minorities just by waiting them out while throwing resources at integrating them. Culture-wise, Pops need to be either accepted or harshly dealt with, now or in the future. Being accepting of all faiths today means there will be problems if you backtrack in the future. There is no one-size-fits-all strategy for dealing with heterogeneous populations.

There are of course a few good examples of countries that already start out with asymmetrical Citizenship and Church and State laws. The Ottoman Empire, home to a lot of cultural and religious minorities, has fairly lenient Citizenship Laws but zero separation of Church and State. As a result they will initially have a lot of both assimilation and conversion, and increasing the rate of those further might be one way for them to try to minimize Turmoil due to discrimination long-term. Meanwhile, the United States has total separation of Church and State (zero religious conversion, but no religious discrimination either) but Racial Segregation laws that cause considerable population segments to be discriminated against, particularly Indigenous- and African-American. Since none of these populations will ever be assimilating unless the Citizenship policy changes, this problem will not just go away on its own. Either the United States changes course legally, or they will have to continue dealing with trouble caused by the oppression of these minorities for the following century.

That’s all for this week! Like I hinted above, next week Martin will get into how Unifications work in Victoria 3, which I for one am very excited about!
 
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Wouldnt it be better to also include a small flat assimilation bonus? It would remove pop clutter with thousand of miniscule 20 citizen pops and furthermore also allow some groups to get fully assimilated, due to there not being any of their own culture they wouldnt form a subidentity in the americas that much for example. Also how do slave populations from africa assimilate, do they stay strictly their own culture or do they for example in brazil become afro brazilian after a while learning the language and such, while still showing the diaspora of slaves from africa.
 
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I do like the new national/religious discrimination laws, although the whole systems feels a bit confusing and hard to understand atm.
 
Will it be possible to decide whats your primary culture(s) and state religion? Will there be an option to introduce for example state atheism as an state religion?
 
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Assimilation should not affect heritage, to prevent the "Afro-Americans turning white" possibility. This would probably require either defining cultures for all combinations of heritage+other traits, or making up some dynamic system that creates hyphenated names (like "Afro-French" etc.)
 
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What happens to pops that are discriminated against both on the basis of culture and on the basis of religion? I'm thinking Native American peoples with indigenous religions, or Jews in more ethnically-discriminatory parts of Europe.

In practice, in cases like this, conversion rates were quite low in the absence of active state intervention on the model of your "promote national values" decrees. No point in converting if it won't actually seriously help with discrimination against you, unless maybe the state is taking your kids off to religious schools against your will.
 
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So the US in the starting situation, should be state religion? as non christians couldnt immigrate and catholics were heavily discriminated against by law and population?

Also just going to bring it up again. V3 really needs V1's parties having cultural and religious tags, that could use these trait systems instead of =protestant. That'd bring life into this system as well as representing historical conditions and making co-alition and minority systems more engaging
 
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Hate to say it, but if this is the conversion and assimilation system on release, you will get more realistic and plausible outcomes if you disable it entirely.

There are two big problems:

1. The rate of religious conversion. I don't think there were any examples of such rapid conversion in this period, outside of populations receiving an organized evangelical religion for the first time (Kafiristan after it became Nuristan; parts of Africa). Even in those cases, the default conversion rates are generally faster than history. Where, exactly, was mass conversion the norm in this time period? Why would that be the default assumption? To take an example, most of the religious change in the Ottoman Empire in this period was the result of ethno-religious cleansing or differential emigration. Ethnoreligious lines were hardening during this period, if anything... so why is mass voluntary conversion of dhimmis a valid option for the Ottoman Empire from 1836?
Religious conversion should work more or less as in Vicky 2: Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains, and Zoroastrians should barely convert at all, outside of special circumstances. Other religions (what Crusader Kings would call "unreformed pagans") should convert to the state religion at a rapid rate if it's one of those mentioned above (at least, if the state has any influence in the area).

2. The reasons for cultural assimilation. Germans in America fiercely held onto their culture until they started getting discriminated against during WW1. According to this dev diary, however, that's when German assimilation would stop.
In general, assimilation should be strongest when a people are discriminated against for something they can change... i.e., everything but ancestry (what Vicky 3 calls heritage). Assimilation rate should actually increase with discrimination, unless a pop is being discriminated for their heritage - in which case, assimilation should be disabled. This would accurately represent the dynamics of assimilation (or lack thereof) in the USA, where diverse Europeans could be integrated despite (because of?) a very chauvinistic Anglo-Saxon mainstream, but African-Americans and Asian immigrants faced a permanent barrier to integration. Alongside the cultural homeland system, this should be enough to accurately model assimilation dynamics for the rest of the world as well.
 
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This screenshot makes me so sad. In it I see my own German/Norwegian ancestors being discriminated against just for speaking their own language here in the Midwest around the turn of the century. My own Norwegian-speaking great great grandfather was a pastor in Iowa when their governor signed the Babble decree during world war 1, trampling all over the 1st-amendment. He wrote to the governor saying none of his congregants would understand him if he were forced to speak English.
On my German side—which coincidentally is also chock full of Lutheran pastors—my great great grandfather was driven out of Faribault MN on horseback for simply being German, again around the time of WWI. And here I am their descendant living in America with no bilingualism to speak of!!! (though I did minor in German in college and took a course in Norwegian).

Thanks, Anglo overlords…..
 
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Shintoism are not grouped in with any other religion, so in countries with Shinto (or Hinduism, or Judaism, or Animism (which, as an aside based on some other comments here, I concur is much too broad - hoping to represent the diversity among animist religions better sometime post-release)) as a state religion there is no difference between State Religion and Freedom of Conscience laws.
That feels like a mistake to me. Although this is the period where Shinto got forcefully divorced from Buddhism and even of brief Buddhist persecution, overall the two religion coexisted with a similar status in the Japanese society. Until a better system is implemented, I kinda feel like Shinto should be in the Buddhism family for gameplay purposes. So if the country is in State Religion then Buddhism is persecuted, but if it is Freedom of Conscience it is not. I think that would better represent the situation of the era (not perfectly, but better than Buddhism always being persecuted unless total separation).
 
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This screenshot makes me so sad. In it I see my own German/Norwegian ancestors being discriminated against just for speaking their own language here in the Midwest around the turn of the century. My own Norwegian-speaking great great grandfather was a pastor in Iowa when their governor signed the Babble decree during world war 1, trampling all over the 1st-amendment. He wrote to the governor saying none of his congregants would understand him if he were forced to speak English.
On my German side—which coincidentally is also chock full of Lutheran pastors—my great great grandfather was driven out of Faribault MN on horseback for simply being German, again around the time of WWI. And here I am their descendant living in America with no bilingualism to speak of!!! (though I did minor in German in college and took a course in Norwegian).

Thanks, Anglo overlords…..

You’re citing a relatively narrow window of time - by 1923, the Supreme Court struck down regulation against teaching students in foreign language. And thats education - I’d be shocked if any state really thought it had a leg to stand on when it comes to regulating churches.


Besides, the game won’t model state-by-state laws at release. Hopefully an early expansion will remedy that.
 
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You’re citing a relatively narrow window of time - by 1923, the Supreme Court struck down regulation against teaching students in foreign language. And thats education - I’d be shocked if any state really thought it had a leg to stand on when it comes to regulating churches.

Then prepare to collect your jaw from the floor! (Notation #9 leads to a scan of my GG-grandpa’s letter)

 
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You’re citing a relatively narrow window of time - by 1923, the Supreme Court struck down regulation against teaching students in foreign language. And thats education - I’d be shocked if any state really thought it had a leg to stand on when it comes to regulating churches.


Besides, the game won’t model state-by-state laws at release. Hopefully an early expansion will remedy that.
1923
The height of American anti-German discrimination was during the First World War.
 
the height of anti-catholic discrimination is the nativist movement which covers most of the game, so america would have to be state religion which would be weird given what the equality option is named after.
 
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Then prepare to collect your jaw from the floor! (Notation #9 leads to a scan of my GG-grandpa’s letter)


I never said I didn’t think any state would have done that - just that there’s no way state officials could have thought they had a chance in winning any challenges. The fact that this proclamation only lasted a few months is tacit confirmation of my point - it would not have lasted long at all.

1923
The height of American anti-German discrimination was during the First World War.

Yes? It took the case a while to work its way through the system.
 
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How moddable are the conditions for assimilation? Is it hard coded that discrimination disables it?
 
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That’s all for this week! Like I hinted above, next week Martin will get into how Unifications work in Victoria 3, which I for one am very excited about!​

Will a player have a choice which culture he expands in his own country? For example, would I be able to "switch" the USA to german, french, or even polish cultures? :)
 
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I never said I didn’t think any state would have done that - just that there’s no way state officials could have thought they had a chance in winning any challenges. The fact that this proclamation only lasted a few months is tacit confirmation of my point - it would not have lasted long at all.



Yes? It took the case a while to work its way through the system.
The point is that the discrimination happened and had real effects of the lives of people. That decision was made in 1923, by which time almost a decade had passed since the beginning of WW1- that is plenty long enough to have an impact.
 
The point is that the discrimination happened and had real effects of the lives of people. That decision was made in 1923, by which time almost a decade had passed since the beginning of WW1- that is plenty long enough to have an impact.

For the US, WW1 began in 1918. So, 5 years. The law in question was passed in 1919, Meyer was charged in 1920.

Anyway, as I’ve said repeatedly in this thread: I strongly support the game being able to represent the federal nature of the US, and situations such as this are a major reason.
 
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