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Dev Diary #47 - Conversion and Assimilation

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Happy Thursday! Today our topic returns to Pop mechanics, with a discussion around some of the finer details on how Pops may change their religion and culture over time depending on your nation’s legal system. The mechanics themselves are quite straightforward, but as always in Victoria 3, the applications of them can have quite different outcomes in different situations.

Let’s begin by reviewing the mechanics around Discrimination, since this will be important later in the discussion. We’ve already talked about most of this in other dev diaries but some details here may be new.
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Discriminated Pops have barely any Political Strength and cannot vote. This means the only way they can impact your country’s politics is by agitating for change through Political Movements, or by starting a civil war for self-rule through a Cultural Secession. In addition to being hamstrung politically, they also get paid substantially less than their non-discriminated counterparts, have a harder time developing Qualifications for certain Professions, and their presence in your country is a potential source of radicalism and Turmoil.

Whether a Pop is discriminated against or accepted depends on who they are, the national identity of the country they live in, and the laws of that country. Both culture and religion are potential reasons for discrimination, and these are controlled by different laws. Your Citizenship laws determine which Pops are discriminated against on the basis of their culture, while your Church and State laws determine which forms of worship are considered acceptable in your country. To be considered non-discriminated by these laws, Pops must pass a more or less stringent selection criteria based on how much they differ from the primary culture(s) and state religion in the country.

For example, under the Racial Segregation Citizenship law, only Pops whose culture’s heritage trait matches that of their primary cultures heritage trait will be accepted. The heritage trait indicates which region of the world the culture originates from (e.g. European, African, Indigenous American), and under this law that is the only thing that matters - whether the Pops speak the same language, or are both transplants in the New World, is unimportant in determining their status. By contrast, under Cultural Exclusion, any similarity between a Pop’s culture and one of the primary ones qualifies them as equal under the law.

The total set of options are:

Ethnostate: only Pops of primary cultures are accepted
National Supremacy: Pops whose cultures share both heritage and another trait are accepted
Racial Segregation: Pops of the same heritage are accepted
Cultural Exclusion: Pops whose cultures share any similarities are accepted
Multiculturalism: no cultures are discriminated against

State Religion: only Pops who adhere to the state religion are accepted
Freedom of Conscience: Pops who adhere to a religion in the same family as the state religion are accepted (e.g. any branch of Christianity, any form of Buddhist)
Total Separation: no religions are discriminated against

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The practical impact of these laws therefore depends on what the state religion and primary cultures of your country are, as well as who actually lives in your country. An Ethnostate operates no differently in practice than a Multicultural state if only Pops of primary cultures live there. Since Pops are unlikely to mass migrate to your country if they’d be oppressed there once they arrived, until you expand your borders and populace by force you may not see a practical difference (except for a curious lack of immigrants). But if you were to form a Customs Union with a poorer neighbor, resulting in a lot of economic migration within the market to your country, you might have to deal with substantial political strife until you take steps to loosen up your Citizenship laws. If the option exists for you, as an alternative you might consider attempting to unify your nations instead (which we’ll learn more about next week) in order to accept both cultures as “primary”.

Alright, now that we’ve cleared up how countries can adapt to the Pops, we will consider how Pops might adapt to their country.

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First let’s tackle Religious Conversion. Pops who are discriminated against on the basis of their religion will always be in the process of converting to an accepted religion. The religion they convert to is not necessarily the state religion, though - it could be any accepted religion that is dominant in the state where they live. An Indigenous American following an Animist religion in a United States with Freedom of Conscience instead of Total Separation is eventually going to convert to some form of Christianity to avoid religious persecution, but if they live in a Nebraska that has been settled by predominantly Catholic rather than Protestant Pops, they would convert to Catholicism even though Protestantism is the dominant religion in the nation as a whole.

Pops convert at a percentage-based rate, currently set to a base of 0.2% / month (as usual, numbers such as these are subject to balancing and change before release, and are always moddable). A percentage-based conversion rate naturally means a diminishing number of actual converts over time, so at this rate it would take almost 30 years for ½ of your discriminated population to convert. If you find this rate too ponderous for your strategic goals, you have two primary tools at your disposal to speed it up.

The Religious School System law + institution combination increases this rate by +20% per investment level, up to a potential maximum of +100% (i.e. twice the speed). It also increases the Education Access of Pops overall and increases the Clout of the Devout Interest Group.

The other method is the Promote National Values decree. Like all decrees, it is issued in a certain state and costs Authority for each state it is issued in, so in a larger country you will have to focus your efforts. Promote National Values doubles the rate of both conversion and assimilation.

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Using a combination of both methods, you could speed up religious conversion such that ½ of a minority population can be converted to an accepted religion within the span of a 10 years. Of course, your school system only extends to incorporated states, so if you’re trying to mass convert Pops in conquered land or colonies you will have to do so by decree - or embark on the often lengthy and painstaking process of incorporating a part of the world that’s culturally alien to your country.

This leads us to cultural assimilation. The conditions for assimilation are a little more complex than conversion, and in some ways operate by the reverse logic. In order to start assimilating, a Pop must already be culturally accepted. After all, if they can’t get citizenship, can’t vote, can’t participate in politics, can’t get paid a fair wage on the basis of who they are, there simply is no way for them to assimilate - by which we mean, integrate themselves into a primary culture such that they are both accepted as such by others and genuinely consider themselves part of that culture. Renouncing one’s religious beliefs and practices can be a very practical and concrete choice, but adopting and being adopted by a different culture is not a utilitarian decision.

In addition, Pops will never change culture if they live in a state they consider their Homeland. A Franco-Canadian in Ontario might over time adopt the ways and tongue of their Anglo-Canadian neighbors, but a Franco-Canadian who resides in Quebec?! Plutôt mourir!

(And of course, if a confederated Canada has been created with both Anglo- and Franco-Canadian as primary cultures, none of those types of Pops would be changing cultures in the first place.)

If a Pop should be assimilating, the culture they will be assimilating into will always be a primary culture. This is because, again, this is not a practical decision that’s just up to the Pop in question, but a two-way-street of assimilation into the dominant national identity. In the case of countries with multiple primary cultures, the one selected will be the Homeland of the state the Pop lives in, or in case none or several apply, the dominant one among Pops who already live there. A Czech Pop living in a unified Germany (North + South German) in the state of Silesia (North German and Polish Homelands) will assimilate into the North German culture; if they lived in Bavaria they would be assimilating into the South German culture; and if they lived in Bohemia they would not assimilate at all, since Bohemia is a not only a South German but also a Czech Homeland. If this Pop instead lived in Transylvania (with both Hungarian and Romanian primary cultures and Homelands), they would be assimilating into whichever of those cultures is more dominant in the part of Transylvania where they live.

The rate of assimilation is the same as for religion, 0.2% per month. As mentioned, the Promote National Values decree can be used to double this rate on a per-state basis. In addition, a Public School System will provide an increased assimilation rate of +12.5% per investment level, representing perhaps a less overt approach to indoctrination than their religious counterparts. With maximum effort, this means you can assimilate half of a minority population in about 18 years.

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I’ll end on a small design note. While our primary motivation while developing these mechanics was to provide a logical and believable simulation, a nice side effect of the asymmetry between conversion and assimilation is that there’s no way to benefit from both without an asymmetry in your laws as well. An inclusive, accepting, discrimination-free society won’t also become religiously homogeneous over time, nor will an oppressive, xenophobic country be able to assimilate their cultural minorities just by waiting them out while throwing resources at integrating them. Culture-wise, Pops need to be either accepted or harshly dealt with, now or in the future. Being accepting of all faiths today means there will be problems if you backtrack in the future. There is no one-size-fits-all strategy for dealing with heterogeneous populations.

There are of course a few good examples of countries that already start out with asymmetrical Citizenship and Church and State laws. The Ottoman Empire, home to a lot of cultural and religious minorities, has fairly lenient Citizenship Laws but zero separation of Church and State. As a result they will initially have a lot of both assimilation and conversion, and increasing the rate of those further might be one way for them to try to minimize Turmoil due to discrimination long-term. Meanwhile, the United States has total separation of Church and State (zero religious conversion, but no religious discrimination either) but Racial Segregation laws that cause considerable population segments to be discriminated against, particularly Indigenous- and African-American. Since none of these populations will ever be assimilating unless the Citizenship policy changes, this problem will not just go away on its own. Either the United States changes course legally, or they will have to continue dealing with trouble caused by the oppression of these minorities for the following century.

That’s all for this week! Like I hinted above, next week Martin will get into how Unifications work in Victoria 3, which I for one am very excited about!
 
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Very good improvement from the conversion and assimilation mechanics in I:R.

I appreciate very much the asymetricality of the design, but how culture and religion impact gameplay?

Beside role playing a nation with a set of laws, the player will be faced with the decision that best suits him at the start of the game depending on the nation's POPs configuration. The main beneift from the decision will be decreasing turmoil (from the DD), but are there any other implications for culture and religion?

I have looked at previous DD's and I have not seen any on POPs culture and religion implications in the game. Could it be that POPs culture and religion affected POPs the same as standard of living ? Beyond culture and religion being used to discriminate (0/1) have them any other implication but flavour?

EDIT: there are cultural secessions, thus an incentive to convert as much of your POPs, but what are the benefits of multiculturalism? Maybe multiculturalism and free religion will increase migration significantly as stated in the DD?
 
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As people here have already mentioned, there should be an option for forced assimilation, because it was quite widely practiced during in the time period with Russification in Russian Empire being an example of this.
However, I want to also point out that there was another assimilation-related practice happening on the former Russian Empire's territory during the game's timeframe, which, ironically, is the opposite extreme to forced assimilation - state-backed de-assimilation/indigenization. I am talking about the Bolshevik Korenizatsiya - a wide-scale Soviet affirmative action program of reversing Russification, and promoting native ethnicities into government positions of their regions.
This should also be represented in the game, maybe even as an additional law in the Citizenship category, desired only by the far-left radicals. It was rightfully pointed out that homelands should only give heavy penalties to assimilitation instead blocking it, but the Indigenization law should actually completely block it, and probably even make people very slowly assimilating into a homeland culture instead.
My take on that is that Paradox has made the normative choice of stating that forced assimilation dosen't actually work most of the time, for the most part the success of russification and policies like it came from when settling russians in those areas rather then actual assimilation.

while this makes sense sociologically, it's one of those "hindsight" design decisions, *we* know that cultural assimilation broadly works like it's described in the dev diary, but people in the victorian era didn't (in fact i think sociology has a field was only a thing post 1925) so in game the player alltough potentially sharing the same goals as the historical states, cultural assimilation, will actualy go about it using the exact opposite tools the Victorians would have.
 
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This sounds like Afro-Americans will convert to dixie, thereby losing their african heritage, which I expect to be what determines which portraits to use.
White supremacist life hack: Go all-in on an inclusive, multicultural society and half your racial minorities will dissapear in 18 years. 4D chess.
This poses a good question, are foreign pops that convert to the primary culture indistinguishable under the laws that discriminate against heritage? If their heritage changes, do their portraits change?
 
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This sounds like Afro-Americans will convert to dixie, thereby losing their african heritage, which I expect to be what determines which portraits to use.
White supremacist life hack: Go all-in on an inclusive, multicultural society and half your racial minorities will dissapear in 18 years. 4D chess.
it's not a life hack, it was actual brazillian state policy for a long while: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanqueamiento

the Paraguayans also did something similar if memory serves, tough don't quote me on this
 
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i think yuo a mistaking being fully accepted with being an accepted culture
I said "a culture is either discriminated, or fully accepted". I'm not talking about Pops being fully accepted, which would require both Culture and Religion acceptance. For assimilation purposes, only the culture being accepted matters.

the main blocker to russification of poland will be the fact that poland will logically be the homeland of the poles, and they will not assimilate no mater what
Which is completely ahistorical. Russification was real and worked, in all Polish territories held by Russia.

otherwise if russia wanted to assimilate poles, they need just pass more lax citizen ship laws, by wich the poles will start assimilating to russian everywhere but their homeland
And this is the worst part. Both Russia and Prussia/Germany did not tolerate Poles at all, but definitely did their best to reduce the Polish culture as much as possible and germanize/russify the Poles. This would be impossible to do in-game with the current assimilation rules.
 
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First let’s tackle Religious Conversion. Pops who are discriminated against on the basis of their religion will always be in the process of converting to an accepted religion. The religion they convert to is not necessarily the state religion, though - it could be any accepted religion that is dominant in the state where they live. An Indigenous American following an Animist religion in a United States with Freedom of Conscience instead of Total Separation is eventually going to convert to some form of Christianity to avoid religious persecution, but if they live in a Nebraska that has been settled by predominantly Catholic rather than Protestant Pops, they would convert to Catholicism even though Protestantism is the dominant religion in the nation as a whole.
So if Japan conquers the United States then Americans will be converting to Shinto?
 
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How do you deal with stuff like France assimilating their regional cultures to French when all those cultures would be living in their homelands?
 
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Suggestion: Why have "cultural traits" with "heritage cultural trait" being one of them? Wouldn't it be better to split them in "cultural traits" and "heritage"?

Meanwhile, the United States has total separation of Church and State (zero religious conversion, but no religious discrimination either)

Huh. I don't think they really accepted indigenous practices, so shouldn't they have Freedom of Conscience instead?
 
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How's will this deal with hard assimilatable groups like the Jews?
 
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Will these mechanics tie into who is available for conscription?

Also, what status would Mormons get? They had a few wars during the game's starting timeline.
 
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How do you deal with stuff like France assimilating their regional cultures to French when all those cultures would be living in their homelands?
Yeah it's the whole problem of this design with only "peaceful" assimiliation of people

Forced assimilation did exist
 
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So there is no way to have a forceful Germanisation/Russification of for example the Polish or Baltc Lands, since the pops there are in their homelands, and will never ever assimilate?
I can understand, that this would happen much slower, but eventually it should happen.

So for example you said currently without modifiers after 30 years 1/2 of the pop would convert to your religion and you can speed it up. So why not have it like 120 years without modifiers for assimilation in homelands, and 60 years with modifiers that in the short term anger the people (school only in your language, streetsigns in your language and so on) to assimilate 1/2 of the people. Maybe even slower than that.
I mean, there have been campaigns specifically targeted at forcibly converting cultures in that timeframe. Indigenous children taken away from their parents and educated in the western way to erase that culture. I'd say these pops shouldn't deliberately convert, but some decrees and repressive system should eventually root them out (causing much more turmoil in the meantime of course). It's a difficult topic, but I think it should get the same treatment as slavery.

Also what about this assymetry for pops where culture and religion are closely linked? Would jews become christian israelites in a repressive european country? And jewish but majority culture in progressive ones?
 
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What happens if you start accepting a culture (e.g by enacting Multiculturalism) but have no Primary Cultures of the same Heritage ?
Can they still assimilate ?
Then you have multiculturalism, which by definition means people are fine in your society being their own culture so they wouldn't assimilate.
 
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This sounds like Afro-Americans will convert to dixie, thereby losing their african heritage, which I expect to be what determines which portraits to use.
White supremacist life hack: Go all-in on an inclusive, multicultural society and half your racial minorities will dissapear in 18 years. 4D chess.
Cultures will only assimilate if they're accepted and outside of their homelands, and African-American homelands IIRC are most of the South, so they won't assimilate in the South even if they're accepted.
 
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Will foreign missionaries convert pops to non-accepted/non-state religions? For instance, a Christian mission converting Korean pops to Christianity, even when Korea has few Christians and discriminates against its adherents?

The 19th and 20th centuries saw a lot of religious changes in Africa and Asia, and it would be nice to see that represented in game. I go into a bit more detail in this older thread here:
(https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-convert-pops-to-non-state-religions.1493275/)
 
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Mmmmmh. But should it, really? There was a lot of discrimination in places, against for example Catholics.

I think the 'in places' is the key word here. Anti-Catholicism was a very strong and persistent force in the US in the 19th and 20th centuries (I will pass over saying anything one way or the other about the 21st) but it is almost entirely on the state level. Most famously, the Blaine Amendments, which only got ruled unconstitutional in 2020, and the Supreme Court has still yet to overturn the Blaine Amendment in Blaine's home state of Maine (but its likely to this year). Ok, maybe I did comment on the 21st century a little bit.

Anyway, the point is that, as far as any anti-Catholic legal discrimination, its been at the state level. So, until the game can represent the federal nature of countries like the US with any fidelity, I think its best to represent the US as having the most liberal of religious laws.

But federalism absolutely needs to be represented.
 
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