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Dev Diary #47 - Conversion and Assimilation

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Happy Thursday! Today our topic returns to Pop mechanics, with a discussion around some of the finer details on how Pops may change their religion and culture over time depending on your nation’s legal system. The mechanics themselves are quite straightforward, but as always in Victoria 3, the applications of them can have quite different outcomes in different situations.

Let’s begin by reviewing the mechanics around Discrimination, since this will be important later in the discussion. We’ve already talked about most of this in other dev diaries but some details here may be new.
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Discriminated Pops have barely any Political Strength and cannot vote. This means the only way they can impact your country’s politics is by agitating for change through Political Movements, or by starting a civil war for self-rule through a Cultural Secession. In addition to being hamstrung politically, they also get paid substantially less than their non-discriminated counterparts, have a harder time developing Qualifications for certain Professions, and their presence in your country is a potential source of radicalism and Turmoil.

Whether a Pop is discriminated against or accepted depends on who they are, the national identity of the country they live in, and the laws of that country. Both culture and religion are potential reasons for discrimination, and these are controlled by different laws. Your Citizenship laws determine which Pops are discriminated against on the basis of their culture, while your Church and State laws determine which forms of worship are considered acceptable in your country. To be considered non-discriminated by these laws, Pops must pass a more or less stringent selection criteria based on how much they differ from the primary culture(s) and state religion in the country.

For example, under the Racial Segregation Citizenship law, only Pops whose culture’s heritage trait matches that of their primary cultures heritage trait will be accepted. The heritage trait indicates which region of the world the culture originates from (e.g. European, African, Indigenous American), and under this law that is the only thing that matters - whether the Pops speak the same language, or are both transplants in the New World, is unimportant in determining their status. By contrast, under Cultural Exclusion, any similarity between a Pop’s culture and one of the primary ones qualifies them as equal under the law.

The total set of options are:

Ethnostate: only Pops of primary cultures are accepted
National Supremacy: Pops whose cultures share both heritage and another trait are accepted
Racial Segregation: Pops of the same heritage are accepted
Cultural Exclusion: Pops whose cultures share any similarities are accepted
Multiculturalism: no cultures are discriminated against

State Religion: only Pops who adhere to the state religion are accepted
Freedom of Conscience: Pops who adhere to a religion in the same family as the state religion are accepted (e.g. any branch of Christianity, any form of Buddhist)
Total Separation: no religions are discriminated against

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The practical impact of these laws therefore depends on what the state religion and primary cultures of your country are, as well as who actually lives in your country. An Ethnostate operates no differently in practice than a Multicultural state if only Pops of primary cultures live there. Since Pops are unlikely to mass migrate to your country if they’d be oppressed there once they arrived, until you expand your borders and populace by force you may not see a practical difference (except for a curious lack of immigrants). But if you were to form a Customs Union with a poorer neighbor, resulting in a lot of economic migration within the market to your country, you might have to deal with substantial political strife until you take steps to loosen up your Citizenship laws. If the option exists for you, as an alternative you might consider attempting to unify your nations instead (which we’ll learn more about next week) in order to accept both cultures as “primary”.

Alright, now that we’ve cleared up how countries can adapt to the Pops, we will consider how Pops might adapt to their country.

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First let’s tackle Religious Conversion. Pops who are discriminated against on the basis of their religion will always be in the process of converting to an accepted religion. The religion they convert to is not necessarily the state religion, though - it could be any accepted religion that is dominant in the state where they live. An Indigenous American following an Animist religion in a United States with Freedom of Conscience instead of Total Separation is eventually going to convert to some form of Christianity to avoid religious persecution, but if they live in a Nebraska that has been settled by predominantly Catholic rather than Protestant Pops, they would convert to Catholicism even though Protestantism is the dominant religion in the nation as a whole.

Pops convert at a percentage-based rate, currently set to a base of 0.2% / month (as usual, numbers such as these are subject to balancing and change before release, and are always moddable). A percentage-based conversion rate naturally means a diminishing number of actual converts over time, so at this rate it would take almost 30 years for ½ of your discriminated population to convert. If you find this rate too ponderous for your strategic goals, you have two primary tools at your disposal to speed it up.

The Religious School System law + institution combination increases this rate by +20% per investment level, up to a potential maximum of +100% (i.e. twice the speed). It also increases the Education Access of Pops overall and increases the Clout of the Devout Interest Group.

The other method is the Promote National Values decree. Like all decrees, it is issued in a certain state and costs Authority for each state it is issued in, so in a larger country you will have to focus your efforts. Promote National Values doubles the rate of both conversion and assimilation.

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Using a combination of both methods, you could speed up religious conversion such that ½ of a minority population can be converted to an accepted religion within the span of a 10 years. Of course, your school system only extends to incorporated states, so if you’re trying to mass convert Pops in conquered land or colonies you will have to do so by decree - or embark on the often lengthy and painstaking process of incorporating a part of the world that’s culturally alien to your country.

This leads us to cultural assimilation. The conditions for assimilation are a little more complex than conversion, and in some ways operate by the reverse logic. In order to start assimilating, a Pop must already be culturally accepted. After all, if they can’t get citizenship, can’t vote, can’t participate in politics, can’t get paid a fair wage on the basis of who they are, there simply is no way for them to assimilate - by which we mean, integrate themselves into a primary culture such that they are both accepted as such by others and genuinely consider themselves part of that culture. Renouncing one’s religious beliefs and practices can be a very practical and concrete choice, but adopting and being adopted by a different culture is not a utilitarian decision.

In addition, Pops will never change culture if they live in a state they consider their Homeland. A Franco-Canadian in Ontario might over time adopt the ways and tongue of their Anglo-Canadian neighbors, but a Franco-Canadian who resides in Quebec?! Plutôt mourir!

(And of course, if a confederated Canada has been created with both Anglo- and Franco-Canadian as primary cultures, none of those types of Pops would be changing cultures in the first place.)

If a Pop should be assimilating, the culture they will be assimilating into will always be a primary culture. This is because, again, this is not a practical decision that’s just up to the Pop in question, but a two-way-street of assimilation into the dominant national identity. In the case of countries with multiple primary cultures, the one selected will be the Homeland of the state the Pop lives in, or in case none or several apply, the dominant one among Pops who already live there. A Czech Pop living in a unified Germany (North + South German) in the state of Silesia (North German and Polish Homelands) will assimilate into the North German culture; if they lived in Bavaria they would be assimilating into the South German culture; and if they lived in Bohemia they would not assimilate at all, since Bohemia is a not only a South German but also a Czech Homeland. If this Pop instead lived in Transylvania (with both Hungarian and Romanian primary cultures and Homelands), they would be assimilating into whichever of those cultures is more dominant in the part of Transylvania where they live.

The rate of assimilation is the same as for religion, 0.2% per month. As mentioned, the Promote National Values decree can be used to double this rate on a per-state basis. In addition, a Public School System will provide an increased assimilation rate of +12.5% per investment level, representing perhaps a less overt approach to indoctrination than their religious counterparts. With maximum effort, this means you can assimilate half of a minority population in about 18 years.

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I’ll end on a small design note. While our primary motivation while developing these mechanics was to provide a logical and believable simulation, a nice side effect of the asymmetry between conversion and assimilation is that there’s no way to benefit from both without an asymmetry in your laws as well. An inclusive, accepting, discrimination-free society won’t also become religiously homogeneous over time, nor will an oppressive, xenophobic country be able to assimilate their cultural minorities just by waiting them out while throwing resources at integrating them. Culture-wise, Pops need to be either accepted or harshly dealt with, now or in the future. Being accepting of all faiths today means there will be problems if you backtrack in the future. There is no one-size-fits-all strategy for dealing with heterogeneous populations.

There are of course a few good examples of countries that already start out with asymmetrical Citizenship and Church and State laws. The Ottoman Empire, home to a lot of cultural and religious minorities, has fairly lenient Citizenship Laws but zero separation of Church and State. As a result they will initially have a lot of both assimilation and conversion, and increasing the rate of those further might be one way for them to try to minimize Turmoil due to discrimination long-term. Meanwhile, the United States has total separation of Church and State (zero religious conversion, but no religious discrimination either) but Racial Segregation laws that cause considerable population segments to be discriminated against, particularly Indigenous- and African-American. Since none of these populations will ever be assimilating unless the Citizenship policy changes, this problem will not just go away on its own. Either the United States changes course legally, or they will have to continue dealing with trouble caused by the oppression of these minorities for the following century.

That’s all for this week! Like I hinted above, next week Martin will get into how Unifications work in Victoria 3, which I for one am very excited about!
 
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Can minority cultures assimilate to other similar (say, same heritage) minority cultures within the country? Some Biafran african slaves from Nigeria should assimilate to African-American if they come to the US tbh

Also, in this example of Ottoman Empire, is there a specific law that discourages religious conversion in exchange for, for example, more tax (like jizya)? 400 years of rule in Balkans, Orthodox are still the majority in a lot places. Sure, there were Bosnians and Albanians who convert en mass because of one way or another and there were significant Muslim populations in Bulgaria and Greece before 1836, but 1/2 of the population in 30 years is just too fast for them. There were just more lenient (for pre-modern standard that is) to the Christians and Jews.
 
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Will there be any conversion/assimilation resistance modifiers for cultures/religions of pops (aside from homelands immunity)?

For example, a cultural diaspora resistance modifier?

(This could tie in with mass migrations that would often ghettoize instead of assimilate.)
 
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Cheers for the DD Iacheck, that sounds like a really elegant system, that will provide an engaging simulation and lots of interesting gameplay variety :) Of course, given I'm probably already somewhat culturally assimilated into the cult of Victoria, it may not be unexpected that I hold this view :)

For a naval-themed pic, it is sadly the case that discrimination was something felt in the navies of the world as well. The USN wasn't immune, but for an example that's probably lesser-known, the Marinha brasileira (Brazilian Navy) Afro-Brazilians continued to suffer discrimination well into the 20th century - and Afro-Brazilian sailors were behind a 1910 mutiny. Here's a 1913 pic of some Brazilian sailors from the lower deck of the dreadnought battleship Minas Geraes, from Bruce Taylor's (ed) The World of the Battleship:

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Are portraits linked to culture or generated per pop? Because it would be odd to see African-Americans suddenly become white when they assimilate in a multicultural USA...
I believe that is based upon Heritage, and that the POPs retain their heritage even when they assimilate. At least, that is how I would do it.
 
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Is there any difference to represent the difference between legal discrimination and social discrimination? For example, the US is nominally a nation that should follow "total separation" for religious practices, but in practice is arguably not even "freedom of conscience" considering how even after this era it still struggles to accept people not of the main religion - consider how even into the Cold War the idea of a Catholic president was intolerable to so many. It wasn't illegal, but there was definite political bias against them. Which of these two philosophies is the current implementation meant to reflect and will the other also be represented at all?

To me, a lot of the policies described sound like social structures, where it may or may not be implemented by law but the discrimination is upheld by the people in society regardless and the policy you have is more of a descriptor of something you aren't in charge of. But they are described as laws in the original post, and that implies they can be changed (provided sufficient IG support) by the government, changing the entire structure of the country - but I think it should be quite clear that there is a difference between (for example) the US government saying that the first nations are equal and independent people who should not be discriminated against...and the people who live in the United States actually doing that.
 
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"The Ottoman Empire, home to a lot of cultural and religious minorities, has fairly lenient Citizenship Laws but zero separation of Church and State. As a result they will initially have a lot of both assimilation and conversion, and increasing the rate of those further might be one way for them to try to minimize Turmoil due to discrimination long-term."

That's very un-historical, the Ottoman Empire was mostly non-interventionist on cultural and religious matters, although it occasionally harshly persecuted some specific minorities, there was virtually no assimilation into Turkish culture in the non-Anatolian areas of the Empire and Christians and Jews were left largely unbothered under a specific status. To be realistic, the Empire should have a lot of non-Turk primary cultures, and there should be a possibility to only temporarily target some specific groups for persecution.
My understanding is that this increasingly was not the case in the period after the Greek Revolution, with religious/ethnic relations steadily getting worse in the period up to WWI. This took place even as the system you describe was codified. Note also that conversion to Islam was a necessary step to high office for most of the existence of the Empire, which for example is why there were an outsized number of Albanians in administration compared to Greeks. This matches pretty well with what is said in the quote.
 
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I want to echo the calls for forced assimilation policies, and also the comments on the US not being particularly tolerant of non-Abrahamic religions in this time period.

Were Native American children forced into Yankee culture? Yep.
Were Native American children allowed to freely exercise their religion? Nope.
Were both of these official government policy? Yep.

The Residential Schools were another defining crime against humanity from this period.

Conversely, it would be cool if there could be policy options to prevent assimilation in a multicultural society, such as the previously-mentioned Korenizatsiya in the Soviet Union. If we're doing multicultural Confederate Canada, let's not try to make everyone Canadian when we can embrace our thousand nations.
 
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This is so mind-bogglingly bad.

You can't assimilate a culture, unless you already accept them, and they don't exist in a region that vaguely represents where they came from? What? What's the point? Where's the realism? This can't model a swathe of historical events, and the only thing it can model is pointless and batty.

The Amerindians will just keep being 'animists' forever because of separation of church and state? What? Yeah, America, that place so famous for not having evangelicals going and trying to change the religions of Indian tribes and imported African slaves? There's just literally no private agents willing to spread religion? I thought it was doomsaying when the LF people complained about the economy not having POP-driven factory construction, but Jesus Christ, is the country really this uniformly marching in lock-step with the government at all times? Where's the private agents in this game?

This is just so mind-bogglingly backwards, everything about it. Every error made in the base assumption of how countries and cultures work is cascading in this dev diary. And the hilarious part is, we still don't have an answer on whether people change race when they change culture. We still aren't sure if "african americans assimilating into european culture" = "they turn white" or not. But assuming African Americans have the United States as their cultural homeland, this means that, in fact, black people are just arbitrarily blocked from being considered yankee or dixie. So you've actually gotten the worst of both worlds here.
 
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I’ll end on a small design note. While our primary motivation while developing these mechanics was to provide a logical and believable simulation, a nice side effect of the asymmetry between conversion and assimilation is that there’s no way to benefit from both without an asymmetry in your laws as well​
Maybe this is obvious, but what is the benefit to assimilating pops into your culture? If you only assimilate accepted pops, what is the difference? Is there still a little discrimination? Or is it just so you can have more regressive laws later without as many discriminated pops?
 
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I propose instead that there be 3 tiers - accepted, tolerated, and discriminated. Tolerated cultures would still have less rights than accepted cultures (maybe give them penalties to standard of living or political power) but unlike discriminated cultures would be able to assimilate.
I also support this idea. Here is even a proposal, how the current laws can be relatively quickly modified to fit into 3-tier discrimination system:
  • Ethnostate: all non-primary culture Pops are discriminated (same as in the current version).
  • National Supremacy: Pops whose cultures share both heritage and another trait are tolerated
  • Racial Segregation: Pops with both the same heritage and another trait are accepted, Pops with only the same heritage are tolerated
  • Cultural Exclusion: Pops with the same heritage are accepted, Pops who share the non-heritage trait are tolerated
  • Multiculturalism: Pops with any cultural similarities are accepted, all others are tolerated
  • (New law) Affirmative Action: All cultures are accepted (+de-assimilation, which I've already mentioned in my comment about Korenizatsiya)
 
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There will be any way to increase/reduce immigration in general and/or particular places?

I usually get tons of immigration from China and Russia at some point in Vic2, what if I decided i didn't want inmigrants for some places to get easily to my country?, like a head tax, quotas, at the time they were a lot of things to attract and or try to stop migration.

Honestly I'd like to promote migrarion of countries during wars or resolutions lol, like refugees.


Also
I wish you'd do more with cultures, I feel like just assimilation is kinda boring, yhey were special and unique pops around the world at the time and a lot of possibilities of create one, it might be interesting seeing unique pops or even promote them.
 
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Probably it's just me, but couldn't they really find a better word than 'ethnostate' ... ?
It's a bit alt-right lingo nowadays and there are a dozen of other terms they could have picked.
 
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I think the rates of both conversion and assimilation are way too high for anything but a new world context and even there it mostly fits the US and Canada. Yes, there was conversion in the Ottoman Empire, but you can be fairly sure that the religious minorities that were still there at the beginning of the time frame weren't the communities that were keen on that. Also as has been mentioned a binary yes/no system of acceptance is weird and makes it hard to portray countries like Austria-Hungary where there were lots of different degrees of acceptance. At least you'd need something like a secondary culture for these cases. AH might not accept Russians and Japanese, but Czechs while not a primary culture are in a somewhat protected position, even if they are not fuly accepted (talking later AH, of course).
 
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