Dev Diary #90 - Splendid Scandinavia

[Thure]

I love these province changes I am just a bit concerned it will make certain other parts seem a bit boring. Well actually its a strictly nationalistic view

Bohemia has about the same population of Sweden, twice as much as Norway or Denmark and I reckon historicaly it was even more important having been HRE capital for several years under the Luxembourgs. Now Norway has at least twice as many provinces as Bohemia which has just two duchies for a total of 8 provinces. Yes later it grew but even so seems terribly underpowered compared to Scandinavia. I realise the Duchies need to be smaller as land wise Bohemia is smaller particularly on the map in CK2 but it seems a little bit underwhelming to have Bohemia so weak compared to the rest. whine over

Number of holdings is WAY more important than number of provinces. Many provinces with 1 holding are worse than few provinces with 6/7 holdings.

 

[transylvanier]

Iceland is a welcome change, and the changes in Scandinavia seem to be within reason. However Germany, especially the north, is the region that actually needs a complete redrawing of its borders the most. I mean just look at the mess that the duchies of Brunswick, Saxony and Brandenburg are. And the south isn't much better either tbh, Franconia, Alemania, Bavaria, Austria, all of these are really not ok at the moment. Germany definitely needs more provinces and more duchies. And please rethink the dejure borders of the Kingdom of Pomerania in the early starts.

 

[Awwal12]

I hope the developers keep in mind that increasing numbers of provinces = buffing the region...

 

[transylvanier]

The next one will focus on the changes made to the Kingdoms of Burgundy, Bavaria and Italy, so not touching upon Bohemia and Moravia.

Please take a look at Germany as well. It's currently the one with the absolute worst province borders and the most nonsensical duchies in the game. Especially in the north.

 

[transylvanier]

Would it be worth adding a "Kingdom of Gotaland" to the southern half of Sweden for the first half of the game? I'm going by Wikipedia here, but I see a few entries noting that the southern area was considered a distinct realm until the Late Middle Ages, plus both Sweden and Denmark used the title of "King of the Goths" for centuries. Could make things more interesting, especially if a Geatish player can conquer Svealand instead of the other way around and completely change the look of Scandinavia...

A de jure Kingdom would not be a good idea, but maybe a titular Kingdom?

 

[Thure]

I hope the developers keep in mind that increasing numbers of provinces = buffing the region...

Not if they kept the number of holdings around the same.

 

[Giotto]

Ideal realm is a -10 size kingdom fully under your control, with high centralization, and elective monarchy. Easily 15k levy pre year 950, so you can easily smash Byzantium if you have good generals and play the war out right.

I already went over my ideal realm size for a tall empire (which is what I play). I usually always end up an emperor, but of a small custom empire. Since I always start in either Charlemagne or Old Gods, and it becomes too boring staying king size for 500-600+ years.

 

[Urzhail64]

I love these province changes I am just a bit concerned it will make certain other parts seem a bit boring. Well actually its a strictly nationalistic view

Bohemia has about the same population of Sweden, twice as much as Norway or Denmark and I reckon historicaly it was even more important having been HRE capital for several years under the Luxembourgs. Now Norway has at least twice as many provinces as Bohemia which has just two duchies for a total of 8 provinces. Yes later it grew but even so seems terribly underpowered compared to Scandinavia. I realise the Duchies need to be smaller as land wise Bohemia is smaller particularly on the map in CK2 but it seems a little bit underwhelming to have Bohemia so weak compared to the rest. whine over

Historically, Bohemia was one of the richest realms through the Middle Ages due to to it's geographical location until the Thirty Year's War. In SWMH, it's easily one of the most potentially powerful realms due to the number of holdings in Czechy proper and in Moravia. (at least four five holdings counties) I really can't think of any other European country that matches Bohemia in that department. (although the old Langobard areas in Southern Italy might give it a run for it's money)

And you can blame Sweden for looting Bohemia..quite a number of items stolen from Bohemia reside in Swedish museums including a good number of books given to Queen Kristina.

 

[Tarkilth]

Awesome changes! 10/10 Dev Diary.

 

[Woifee]

Iceland is a welcome change, and the changes in Scandinavia seem to be within reason. However Germany, especially the north, is the region that actually needs a complete redrawing of its borders the most. I mean just look at the mess that the duchies of Brunswick, Saxony and Brandenburg are. And the south isn't much better either tbh, Franconia, Alemania, Bavaria, Austria, all of these are really not ok at the moment. Germany definitely needs more provinces and more duchies. And please rethink the dejure borders of the Kingdom of Pomerania in the early starts.

It’s already confirmed that Bavaria and Italy becomes an overhaul. And right now it’s pretty obvious that Geamy in between Bavaria abd Skandinavia will also change.

 

[Patroclusmega]

too many useless provinces are being added, it would have a very bad effect on late-game performance, unless they optimize it more, but I don't think they will. And really? new provinces added to Iceland? Why? It is the most isolated place on map, rarely being bothered by others, why put more strain on the cpu? I really hope that performance will remain stable.

 

[Thure]

too many useless provinces are being added, it would have a very bad effect on late-game performance, unless they optimize it more, but I don't think they will. And really? new provinces added to Iceland? Why? It is the most isolated place on map, rarely being bothered by others, why put more strain on the cpu? I really hope that performance will remain stable.

Holdings are more important than provinces. If they kept the holdings around the same or just added some it's not that bad. People should learn that holdings are the biggest factor here, not provinces itself.

 

[Salix]

I agree with Liubice, but not with Holstein. The position of the Saxons was only weakened there after the conquest by Charlemagne, who was allied with the nearby Wends against the Saxons. Moreover your map supports a three way split, between Saxons, Wagrier and Danes.

I would like to post more sources but they are mainly in German. As how the map is drawn in game now, most Parts of Holstein were uninhabited or settled by the Wagriens/Abodriten(<-Wends)
Culture and Religion should be Slavic. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obotrites)
As you said the Obotrites allied with Charlemagne and got the whole of Holstein as Ruling area, but were also still vassals/allies to Charlemagne and the Franks. I mean the Wikipedia article about the Obotrites show how important they were.
They Danes were mainly in Schleswig and the treaty with Charlemagne also granted them only that. The Saxon were mainly in the West. Look how paradox drew the map. Saxons clearly get Dithmarschen, but not Holstein, until around 1100/1200.

So if someone can read German on the Paradox team or community they should read a bit about it, Wikipedia should suffice. For more interaction I recommend The Wallburg Musuem in Oldenburg/Starigard (https://www.oldenburger-wallmuseum.de/)

 

[Heiliges Thüringens Reich]

Nice. I love some new provinces myself

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

Holdings are more important than provinces. If they kept the holdings around the same or just added some it's not that bad.
People should learn that holdings are the biggest factor here, not provinces itself.

?
As far as i know, baron level lords and landless courtiers have no AI (aka no events etc), so there's less drain on performance, than with landed count-and-up level lieges.

 

[nestorius]

Historically, Bohemia was one of the richest realms through the Middle Ages due to to it's geographical location until the Thirty Year's War. In SWMH, it's easily one of the most potentially powerful realms due to the number of holdings in Czechy proper and in Moravia. (at least four five holdings counties) I really can't think of any other European country that matches Bohemia in that department. (although the old Langobard areas in Southern Italy might give it a run for it's money)

And you can blame Sweden for looting Bohemia..quite a number of items stolen from Bohemia reside in Swedish museums including a good number of books given to Queen Kristina.

I know my grandma could never forgive the sweeds. Either way number of holdings isnt enough and the number of holdings in Bohemia sucks when with fuedalisation all counties get 3 holdings in scandinavia. Off the top of my head Bohemia has

5 built holdings in prague
4 in 3 other counties
3 in 4 counties

Now each can build 1 or so holding extra but that isnt major. Frankly it isnt enough.

Ok quick summary Sweden 1066 and max holding 37 and 68
Bohemia 1066 and max is 26 and 36
Norway is 42 and 63

I think Sweden is just underpowered as you should also count lapland which has 5 and 10

Basically I think currently Norway is OP and Bohemia is underpowered.

 

[Awwal12]

Not if they kept the number of holdings around the same.

The trouble is there are ways of increasing the number of holdings. Although the AI will rarely manage to make a difference here, the player can.

 

[nestorius]

The trouble is there are ways of increasing the number of holdings. Although the AI will rarely manage to make a difference here, the player can.

you dont even have to do this as shown above already now Sweden and Norway have dramatically more holdings the only diffence can be tech.

 

[elvain]

I know my grandma could never forgive the sweeds. Either way number of holdings isnt enough and the number of holdings in Bohemia sucks when with fuedalisation all counties get 3 holdings in scandinavia. Off the top of my head Bohemia has

5 built holdings in prague
4 in 3 other counties
3 in 4 counties

Now each can build 1 or so holding extra but that isnt major. Frankly it isnt enough.

Ok quick summary Sweden 1066 and max holding 37 and 68
Bohemia 1066 and max is 26 and 36
Norway is 42 and 63

I think Sweden is just underpowered as you should also count lapland which has 5 and 10

Basically I think currently Norway is OP and Bohemia is underpowered.

Bohemia shouldn't have more counties, because the duke of Bohemia should be able to hold the entire duchy of Bohemia... and with more counties in that duchy he wouldn't. Just remember that all of the medieval feudal lords of Bohemia held quite small estates in regards to whole country and even the more powerfull of them never managed to controll a territory of a whole CK2 Bohemian county. Even the lords like Záviš z Falknštejna or Jindřich z Lipé still held like half of the county of Litoměřice and perhaps one holding in naighbouring county. If you make the counties smaller, those lords would qualify to hold whole counties, like in this my dev diary for SWMH,

in which I shown that the Vršovic family as holding provinces of Žatec and Litoměřice. With smaller provinces that would be possible, while OTOH with larger provinces, they would, at best, hold 2 castles in there.

I believe Bohemia will be overhauled in the upcomming patch too and some screenshots seem to suggest it... and I if it happens I believe Bohemian counties will indeed receive more baronies which would certainly increase the country's power.

Just note that holding directly your capital duchy and its main counties gives you much more levies and income... and thus if the king of Bohemia holds firmly a 5 province duchy with 5-6 barony counties just by himself, he is more powerfull than the king of Sweden holding 6 3-barony counties spread in 2-3 duchies. The count you have done therefore doesn't really matter in terms of military and other power in CK2. Furthemore this kind of king of Bohemia has to deal with only one powerfull vasal as duke of Moravia or perhaps several counts in Moravia... while the king of Sweden or Norway has several dukes who are about as powerfull as the king himself. Which again means the position of king of Bohemia is relatively stronger despite lower number of holdings and provinces inside his realm.

So let's just hope the devs will do Bohemia+Moravia the justice... will add substantial amount of baronies without adding many counties. Having more counties (I mean adding more than one to the whole kingdom) would only destabilize Bohemia (and I don't want my country to be ahistorically destabilized just because people think it shuold have more provinces).
Its power was unique in Central Europe partly because the Přemyslids were the only ones who managed to keep the whole country (at least Bohemia) centralized without splitting it between various dynasty lines.

 

[elvain]

I hope the developers keep in mind that increasing numbers of provinces = buffing the region...

not always. For instance if previously a king of Norway was fine with holding 4 provinces and it made him far stronger than any of his vassals, now with the same amount of provinces he might be just as powerfull as his internal rivals and therefore these rivals can challenge his power... making him actually weaker rather than stronger.