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Dev Diary #91: Starbases

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary marks the start of dev diaries about a major upcoming update that we have named the 'Cherryh' update after science fiction author C.J. Cherryh. This is a major update that will include some very significant reworks to core gameplay systems, reworks that we have been prototyping and testing for some time. Right now, we cannot say anything about the exact nature of the update or anything at all about when it will be released, other than that it's far away. Normally, we wouldn't be doing dev diaries on an update at this stage at all, but there's simply so much to talk about that we have to start early. Cherryh will be a massive update, the largest one we've done to date, and there are many new and changed things to talk about in the coming weeks and months.

Please bear in mind that screenshots are from an early internal build and will contain art and interfaces that are WIP, non-final numbers, hot code and all that business.

Border Rework
We've never been entirely happy with the border system in Stellaris. While it generally works fine from a gameplay perspective, it has some rather quirky elements, such as being able to claim ownership of systems that you have never visited and indeed have no ability to reach and making it hard to tell what the exact border adjustments will be when planets are ceded or outposts are built. For this reason, we have decided to fundamentally rework the Stellaris border system to be based on solar system ownership. Each system will have a single owner, with complete control of the system, and borders are now simply a reflection of system ownership rather than a cause for it to change. In the Cherryh update, who owns a system is almost always based on the owner of the Starbase in said system.
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Starbases
A Starbase is a space station orbiting the star of said system. Each system can only have a single Starbase, but this can be anything from a remote Outpost to a massive Citadel with its own 'fleet' of orbiting defense stations. Starbases can be upgraded and specialized in a variety of ways (more details on this below), and is the primary means of determining system ownership. This means that wars are no longer fought for colonies controlling a nebulous blob of border that may not actually include the systems you really want, but rather for the exact systems you are interested in, and their starbases. This change of course would not be possible if we kept the wargoal system that exists in the live version of the game (just imagine the size of that wargoal list...), but more on that in a couple weeks.
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As Starbases now determine system ownership, it will no longer be possible to colonize or invade primitives outside your borders in the Cherryh update, but if a system contains a colony and no starbase, it will still count as being inside the borders of the colony's owner. These restrictions are moddable. Since Starbases now cost influence to construct (see below), we have removed the influence cost for colonizing and attacking primitives.

Starbases entirely replace the old system of Frontier Outposts.

Starbase Construction
With borders from colonies gone, empires now start only owning their home system, with a Starbase already constructed around their home star. To expand outside their home system, empires will have to construct Outposts in surveyed systems. An Outpost is a level 'zero' Starbase that has only very basic defenses and cannot support any buildings or modules, but also does not count towards your maximum Starbase Capacity (more on that below). Building an Outpost in a system costs influence, with the cost dependent on how far away the system is and how contigous it is to your empire as a whole, so 'snaking' or building starbases to ring in a certain part of space will be more influence-costly than simply expanding in a natural way. Starbases do not cost any influence upkeep, just an up-front cost when first building one in a system. As this change makes influence far more important in the early game, there will also be significant balance changes to empire influence generation in the Cherryh update.
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As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources, and mining/research stations for some of those resources already in place. This should also help make player starts a little less random, ensuring that you are never *completely* without resources in your home system.
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Another thing we have been wary about when working on this is making sure that building the Outposts for each system does not simply feel like adding tedium. Right now, between the fact that which systems you choose to spend your limited influence on is an extremely important choice, and various tweaks and interface improvements we are making to ease up the process of developing your systems, we are confident that this will not be the case. We've also made it so that there are no entirely 'empty' systems (systems with no resources at all), as we discovered during playtesting that spending influence to claim such a system felt extremely unrewarding.

Upgrades and Capacity
Each empire will have a Starbase Capacity that represents the number of upgraded Starbases they can support. There are five levels of Starbases:
Outpost: A basic Outpost that exists only to claim a system. Costs no energy maintenance and does not count towards the Starbase Capacity, and cannot support buildings or modules. Outposts will also not show up in the outliner or galaxy map, as they are not meant to be interacted with at all unless it is to upgrade the Outpost to a Starport.
Starport: The first level of upgraded Starbase, available at the start of the game. Supports 2 modules and 1 building.
Starhold: The second level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 4 modules and 2 buildings.
Star Fortress: The third level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 3 buildings.
Citadel: The final level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 4 buildings.
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Regardless of the level of the Starbase, so long as it is not an Outpost, it will use 1 Starbase Capacity and will show up on the map and in the outliner. Overall, the design goal is for the vast majority of Starbases to be Outposts that you never have to manage, with a handful of upgraded Starbases that are powerful and critical assets for your empire. Going over your Starbase Capacity will result in sharply increased Starbase energy maintenance costs. Starbase Capacity can be increased through techs, traditions and other such means. You also gain a small amount of Starbase Capacity from the number of Pops in your empire. If you end up over Starbase Capacity for whatever reason, it is possible to downgrade upgraded Starbases back into Outposts. It is also possible to dismantle Starbases entirely and give up control of those systems, so long as they are not in a system with a colonized planet.
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Spaceports and Ship Construction
Starbases fully replace Spaceports in the role of system/planet defense and military ship construction. Spaceports still exist, but are no longer separate stations but rather an integrated part of the planet, and can only build civilian ships (Science Ships, Construction Ships and Colony Ships). To build military ships you will need a Starbase with at least one Shipyard module (more on that below). Starbases also replace Spaceports/Planets in that they are now the primary place to repair, upgrade, dock and rally ships, though civilian ships are also able to repair at planets.
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Modules and Buildings
All non-Outpost Starbases can support Modules and Buildings. Some of these are available from the start of the game, while others are unlocked by tech. Some modules and buildings are only available in certain systems, for example Trading Hubs can only be constructed in colonized systems.

Modules are the fundamental, external components of the Starbase, and determine its actual role. Module choices include Trading Hubs (for improving the economy of colonized systems), Anchorages (for Naval Capacity), Shipyards (for building ships, duh), and different kinds of defensive modules such as gun turrets and strike craft hangar bays that improve the Starbase's combat ability. There is no restrictions on the number of modules you can have of a certain type, besides the actual restriction on module slots itself. This means, for example, that you can have a Starbase entirely dedicated to Shipyards, capable of building up to 6 ships in parallell. Modules will also change the graphical appearance of the Starbase, so a dedicated Shipyard will look different from a massive defensive-oriented fortress brimming with dozens of gun turrets.
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Buildings represent internal structures inside the Starbase proper, and typically work to enhance modules or provide a global buff to the Starbase or system as a whole. Building choices include the Offworld Trading Company that increases the effectiveness of all Trading Hub modules, and the Listening Post that massively improves the Starbase's sensor range. You cannot have multiples of the same building on the same Starbase.
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Defenses
One of the fundamental problems with the military stations in the live version of the game is that they simply do not have enough firepower. Even with impressive hit points and shields, a station with at most a dozen or so guns simply cannot match the firepower of a whole fleet. An another issue is the ability to build multiple defense stations in the same system, meaning that no single station can be strong enough to match a fleet, as otherwise a system with several such stations will be effectively invulnerable. For this reason we decided to consolidate all system defenses into the Starbase mechanics, but not into a single station. Starbases come with a basic array of armaments and utilities (gun and missile turrets, shields and armor, etc), with the exact number of weapons based on the level of the Starbase. These are automatically kept up to date with technological advances, so your Starbases won't be fielding red lasers and basic deflectors when facing fleets armed with tachyon lances.
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Additionally, Starbases (with the exception of Outposts) have the ability to construct defense platforms to protect them. Constructed defense platforms will form a 'fleet' around the Starbase, supporting it with their own weapons and giving Starbases the firepower needed to engage entire fleets. The amount of defense platforms a Starbase can support may depend on factors such as starbase size and modules/buildings, technology, policies, and so on. The exact details here are still being worked on, but the design intent is that if you invest into them, Starbase defenses will scale against fleets across the whole game rather just being completely outpaced in the late game as military stations and spaceports currently are in the live version.
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One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means. They can, however be disabled and even captured by enemies. More on this in a couple weeks.

... whew, this was a long one but that's all for today! Next week we'll continue talking about the Cherryh update, with the topic being Faster than Light travel...
 
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I have seen a number of posts regarding placing the starbase near a planet. And while this might see logical at first blush, it is a tactically terrible spot. Near stellar orbit gives you the ability to put limited defenses on the stellar side of the starbase, and also allow the maximum amount of inbound firing time as the enemy fleet approaches. And since you're going to have the largest sizes of weaponry on board the fixed position firing platform, that optimizes the ability to take out large attacking fleets. Properly loaded out, you might even be able to defend the entire system from that position.
 
I have seen a number of posts regarding placing the starbase near a planet. And while this might see logical at first blush, it is a tactically terrible spot. Near stellar orbit gives you the ability to put limited defenses on the stellar side of the starbase, and also allow the maximum amount of inbound firing time as the enemy fleet approaches. And since you're going to have the largest sizes of weaponry on board the fixed position firing platform, that optimizes the ability to take out large attacking fleets. Properly loaded out, you might even be able to defend the entire system from that position.

you are also almost always striking from the sun. :p
 
I was sort of thinking that the empires in question wouldn't be hostile enough to one another that they'd claim the whole region (whether due to a lack of interest, due to not being strong enough to risk a war, or due to perhaps hoping to ally down the line) but also not friendly enough to trust the other guy with all of those systems (because if the other party grows stronger or isn't satisfied with taking just a couple of non-owned systems there could be a problem down the line) and that they thus could agree that the best option for both of them is to keep some systems free from claims and colonies. If the two of them grow closer (e.g. sign an NAP or enter into a Federation with one another), the neutral zone could be dismantled bilaterally (though probably still with some penalties resulting if one of them decides to clam all of it or otherwise isn't working in the spirit of cooperation), while if they grow more hostile (due to conflicting claims elsewhere, due to one of them allying a rival of the other, due to one or both disrespecting the neutral zone, etc.) the whole thing could collapse and the two empires claiming/taking the formerly neutral systems and gearing up for war.


I have 3 words for you.

"Convulsed rules hell!".

To expand on that a bit and keep to simple. Lets consider the following scenario: Two empire decide to "lay claim" on an neutral zone. They also close border to each other and still remain cool neutral because of mutual rival. Then what? What would happen then? That single solar system all of sudden become inaccessible to each other but a third empire who have neutral relationship with each other and military access. Then that third empire become the only one who can go in and make use of it.

Lets consider another scenario: If two empire are hostile to each other and lay claim to a neutral zone just like before. Except this time they don't do anything to each other. A third party decide to declare war for a completely different reason and decide to "dismantle outpost" all along the neutral zone. Then the owner would flip to the empire who didn't go to war. Now all of sudden all 3 empires are bordering each other in a 3 way neutral zone. I don't think that would be fun to have solar system flip back and forward out of your control.

Finally I don't think it is possible to execute something like your idea if Paradox is planning to have a single outpost per solar system and no border extending outside of that. Otherwise we would get the equivalent messy fort ZoC rules that EU 4 has and no one likes it.
 
how'd I'd change the OP is where it says " Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means" to 'Starbases & Outposts can no longer be destroyed through conventional means'.
Sorry, but your terminology implies, that the outpost is a separate structure from the starbase(s), whereas in this dev-diary, wiz was pretty clear in his terminology: The outpost is a form of a starbase as well as the starport, the starhold, the star-fortress and the citadel.
 
I don't see how, it's become clear to me a non-trivial amount of individuals are confused by this, and thus it needs to be made clearer. (i'm almost entirely sure this is because current outposts are destructible and most people don't actually read the whole OP)

how'd I'd change the OP is where it says " Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means" to 'Starbases & Outposts can no longer be destroyed through conventional means'.

That would be more confusing as starbases and outposts aren't different things. Outposts are a subset of starbases treating them as separate things only adds to the confusion.

People who didn't even read the first post being confused is not an issue that needs to be corrected. Just point those people at the OP.
 
Something that occurs to me is that the current system shows influence really well. Perhaps we could use both territory and sphere of influence in the game. I don't have suggestions on what influence would do in that situation, but I know there are things you could do with it.
 
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Yes, that's what I meant as well. When choosing which system you want to put an Outpost in next, you have to consider the following factors:
...
- The influence it costs, and whether you have a better use for that currency
It's as strategic a decision as strategic decisions get. If you're doing it without thinking, you're doing it very, very wrong.

Perhaps it would help us to put into perspective how critical of a decision will this be. I know you're rebalancing influence, but it might be instructive to know how much influence cost we're talking, and whether building Colonies would therefore be less expensive as well.

Let me ask it this way. In current game play terms, an outpost might cost 50-400 influence depending on position and tech (traditions being tech by another name). Colonies then cost another 50-100. How much are we talking under the NEW system in current game terms, to claim and colonize? If the outpost cost started at, say 20, then a lot of peoples fears are somewhat unjustified. If you're still talking 50+ to grab the next system over (in current game terms) and then another 100 to colonize, then I'm in the *concerned* camp.

Either way, even though I like the improvements in principle, I can't help but have the feeling that the dev team made an awesome game, and then had in their minds another awesome, similar game, and said lets turn this game into that game. And leave me at least wishing that the option of changing game mechanics were as easy as it currently is to change from one configured FTL method to another.
 
I don't know if your linked video mentions it but coincidentally if you reduce the mass of a star sufficiently, theoretically it would extend it's lifespan also. Stellar husbandry; there's an idea for late game fluff :cool:
indeed it does, extending the life of a star, especially in the cases of preventing a Super Nava, is brought up as one of the big reasons a civ would bother to do this, on top of the obvious martials that can be collected while doing so.

he also brings up that if you have fusion reactors that it's usually a net gain in energy, and that Dyson spheres become easier to build with this method, sense not only are you collecting enormous amounts of building material from that Star(especially if you have fusion tech strong enough to transmute elements you need from the hydrogen on top of the existent metals), but you're also reducing it's mass and therefore reducing the needed size to encompass that star.
 
Admittedly it's not clear from the terminology whether this includes the outpost level of the starbase development, but it seems to strongly hint in that direction :)
Exactly - not clear!
If posts, like the starbases, will be indestructible looks like we will have really huge list for war demand selection with every border covered system mentioned in it, sounds even worst than killable outposts. Or if it can be dynamically captured and converted it will ruin all war demands because at war you can just capture them all. Or if they are capturable with troops it will require huge boost of enemy AI (it's battle fleets 90% times goes totally on different root then transports) and it will be real black hole eating minerals to support own troops on each post.
I hope next diary will reveal some details about difference between posts and bases, and usage them in war, because right now it looks really strange.

I think next big UI thing will be special "war demand map mode" (like sectors mapping) instead of current "dropdown-like" list according to new 'per system' control rules.
 
I've got mixed feelings about all this. I'm sure that it will be worked out in a way that makes sense, but at the moment it looks like it's throwing the fast-expansion strategy in the bin and slowing down the game as a whole. Although the current border system could be improved upon, I feel like a total rework of it is almost gonna turn Stellaris into a different game. Having to claim every system you want sounds like it will add a lot of micro-management in itself. I also kinda like the tension of pushing my borders against another empire's, trying to expand it as much as I can to take as many systems as possible.

While the idea of starbases is cool as a massive station that can hold its own against a fleet, I feel like all the other stuff is going to severely restrict the way the game is played strategically.

(Also, how is this going to affect systems with multiple planets? Can you no longer have a system whose planets have different owners?)
 
I've got mixed feelings about all this. I'm sure that it will be worked out in a way that makes sense, but at the moment it looks like it's throwing the fast-expansion strategy in the bin and slowing down the game as a whole. Although the current border system could be improved upon, I feel like a total rework of it is almost gonna turn Stellaris into a different game. Having to claim every system you want sounds like it will add a lot of micro-management in itself. I also kinda like the tension of pushing my borders against another empire's, trying to expand it as much as I can to take as many systems as possible.

While the idea of starbases is cool as a massive station that can hold its own against a fleet, I feel like all the other stuff is going to severely restrict the way the game is played strategically.

(Also, how is this going to affect systems with multiple planets? Can you no longer have a system whose planets have different owners?)
Given colonizing no longer costs influence... I'm not sure this would have to axe fast expansion strategies.

Instead of saving influence for that really nice colony a bit further away, you're saving the influence for that really nice system a bit further away. Remember: you can claim systems that aren't attached to the rest of your borders, its just more expensive.
 
Given colonizing no longer costs influence... I'm not sure this would have to axe fast expansion strategies.

Instead of saving influence for that really nice colony a bit further away, you're saving the influence for that really nice system a bit further away. Remember: you can claim systems that aren't attached to the rest of your borders, its just more expensive.

Yeah, that's what's got me somewhat hopeful that it's not going to be that bad, but at the moment it's hard not to be worried with such a drastic change.
 
Exactly - not clear!
If posts, like the starbases, will be indestructible looks like we will have really huge list for war demand selection with every border covered system mentioned in it, sounds even worst than killable outposts. Or if it can be dynamically captured and converted it will ruin all war demands because at war you can just capture them all. Or if they are capturable with troops it will require huge boost of enemy AI (it's battle fleets 90% times goes totally on different root then transports) and it will be real black hole eating minerals to support own troops on each post.
I hope next diary will reveal some details about difference between posts and bases, and usage them in war, because right now it looks really strange.

I think next big UI thing will be special "war demand map mode" (like sectors mapping) instead of current "dropdown-like" list according to new 'per system' control rules.

It is clear. Outposts are the first level of starbase and are indestructible by conventional means. The only way this isn't clear is if you didn't read Wiz's post.
 
Exactly - not clear!
If posts, like the starbases, will be indestructible looks like we will have really huge list for war demand selection with every border covered system mentioned in it, sounds even worst than killable outposts. Or if it can be dynamically captured and converted it will ruin all war demands because at war you can just capture them all. Or if they are capturable with troops it will require huge boost of enemy AI (it's battle fleets 90% times goes totally on different root then transports) and it will be real black hole eating minerals to support own troops on each post.
I hope next diary will reveal some details about difference between posts and bases, and usage them in war, because right now it looks really strange.

I think next big UI thing will be special "war demand map mode" (like sectors mapping) instead of current "dropdown-like" list according to new 'per system' control rules.


It is pretty clear, outposts are the very first level of starbase's and cannot be destroyed by conventional means. If you actually read the dev diary you would know and it would be clear for you
 
It's stated that starbases can't be destroyed through conventional means. While that might change after continued playtesting and tweaking, that suggests that they can be destroyed, just not in conventional ways such as combat. If they can be destroyed through unconventional means, I wonder how starbase destruction will affect borders then. Do the borders just disappear immediately, or do it take some time before that happens? I am interested to learn more.
 
Wiz literally says:
An Outpost is a level 'zero' Starbase that has only very basic defenses and cannot support any buildings or modules, but also does not count towards your maximum Starbase Capacity

You literally cannot get anymore clear than that...Outposts are Starbases.

Also since im guessing Superweapons will be in this patch. Starbases might be able to be destroyed through such means.