Dev Diary #91: Starbases

[methegrate]

How on earth would anyone ever exert a "border" outside of a solar system?

The same way you enforce a border on Earth, or laws against robbing banks or counterfeiting money for that matter: with enforcement that makes it reasonably likely you'll get caught and punishments that make getting caught a reasonable deterrent.

Take robbing a bank (since it's less politically charged). The cops can't watch all the banks all the time, they don't even try. Instead we have relatively few bank robbers not by active defenses but by consequence-based deterrence. If you do rob a bank, you'll probably get caught and go to jail. Indeed, many banks actually have stopped posting guards at all and instruct tellers to hand over the money to anybody who asks. I once saw a guy who got arrested for robbing three banks by threatening to beat the teller up. Across the counter. Through the glass window. But policy was policy, and I did see him on his way to jail.

Same with space borders. Sure, maybe you can't watch that whole vastness all at once (although this is also a game with psychics, tachyon lances, FTL travel and carnivorous space fungi, so let's be careful about throwing around the concept of "realism"). If you do run the border though, you'll probably get caught and will probably get punished. Maybe you'll get stopped making port because you don't have papers, maybe they've put sensor beacons near anything of value. Maybe they have subspace sensors. This is a space empire after all. But however they do it, consequences and deterrence mean an active border.

Until someone sends across a fleet of very realistic battleships armed with antimatter weapons and blows your border patrol officers to smithereens. Then you have an active war.

 

[LambTaco]

The old border system makes no sense. I saw someone compare it to Africa, which is absurd. Africa is a landmass, humans are a land dwelling species. Space is space, and every empire in Stellaris are solar system dwellers. If we want an analogy comparing Stellaris to humans on Earth, each solar system is an island about 1km wide, and between each island is a stretch of ocean 10 000km wide. No matter how developed that island is it doesn't exert control of neighbouring islands.

 

[DCParry]

The same way you enforce a border on Earth, or laws against robbing banks or counterfeiting money for that matter: with enforcement that makes it reasonably likely you'll get caught and punishments that make getting caught a reasonable deterrent.

Take robbing a bank (since it's less politically charged). The cops can't watch all the banks all the time, they don't even try. Instead we have relatively few bank robbers not by active defenses but by consequence-based deterrence. If you do rob a bank, you'll probably get caught and go to jail. Indeed, many banks actually have stopped posting guards at all and instruct tellers to hand over the money to anybody who asks. I once saw a guy who got arrested for robbing three banks by threatening to beat the teller up. Across the counter. Through the glass window. But policy was policy, and I did see him on his way to jail.

Same with space borders. Sure, maybe you can't watch that whole vastness all at once (although this is also a game with psychics, tachyon lances, FTL travel and carnivorous space fungi, so let's be careful about throwing around the concept of "realism"). If you do run the border though, you'll probably get caught and will probably get punished. Maybe you'll get stopped making port because you don't have papers, maybe they've put sensor beacons near anything of value. Maybe they have subspace sensors. This is a space empire after all. But however they do it, consequences and deterrence mean an active border.

Until someone sends across a fleet of very realistic battleships armed with antimatter weapons and blows your border patrol officers to smithereens. Then you have an active war.

Except this is a very myopic view. If we are going with the conceit that we are actually encountering aliens and not just funny looking human beings, why would cultural and disciplinary conventions, which are in no way natural, normal or universal, be relevant? Why would a plastic shelter and a couple hundred poor sods dumped on a planet imply full physical and political control over a system with potentially over a dozen stellar bodies of some sort? Not all governments are empires. Borders, by and large, are imaginary in the sense that they only have the meaning that we collectively, either explicitly or implicitly, grant to them.

For this change, I think Paradox is viewing the outpost as more than just flag. It is a significant investment of infrastructure the implies the ability to coordinate a number of operations in a system. Even then, the ability to defend that claim is limited until you upgrade the outpost or have a significant enough fleet presence to deter or answer aggression. I suppose the abstraction is that without this central infrastructure, mining and other activities becomes prohibitively expensive or dangerous (maybe no one will underwrite mining operations or transport ships that operate out of non-outposted systems, and the government can't take the chance of working with uninsured companies, or make up whatever other nonsense floats your boat).

 

[erneiz_hyde]

The old border system makes no sense. I saw someone compare it to Africa, which is absurd. Africa is a landmass, humans are a land dwelling species. Space is space, and every empire in Stellaris are solar system dwellers. If we want an analogy comparing Stellaris to humans on Earth, each solar system is an island about 1km wide, and between each island is a stretch of ocean 10 000km wide. No matter how developed that island is it doesn't exert control of neighbouring islands.

Your post is just under the one making the most sense out of the old border system. Just because there is no actual representation doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You can easily rp the border guard into existence. I mean, spacebase does the same thing only on smaller scale. Just because you have that shiny base on the sun doesn't mean you can say anything on me colonizing a planet in the system. But, we can easily rp that the spacebase actually exerts space patrols and stuffs that actually maintains your sovereignty over the system even if they don't have an actual representation on the game.
Not against the new border system btw. Just saying the old border system can make sense as well. Granted, the old system has some absurdities like stealing a FE system just because of border exertion alone, but I'm willing to bet there will be absurdities found in the new system as well, sooner or later.

 

[Hype]

outpost are starbases, they are the first and lowest level (level "0") and therefore have the same mechanics as starbases.

Don't bother trying, they're just trolling. Even provided direct quotes from Wiz that say as much they have continued to ignore it.

 

[LambTaco]

Your post is just under the one making the most sense out of the old border system. Just because there is no actual representation doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You can easily rp the border guard into existence. I mean, spacebase does the same thing only on smaller scale. Just because you have that shiny base on the sun doesn't mean you can say anything on me colonizing a planet in the system. But, we can easily rp that the spacebase actually exerts space patrols and stuffs that actually maintains your sovereignty over the system even if they don't have an actual representation on the game.
Not against the new border system btw. Just saying the old border system can make sense as well. Granted, the old system has some absurdities like stealing a FE system just because of border exertion alone, but I'm willing to bet there will be absurdities found in the new system as well, sooner or later.

So the border guards go into neighbouring systems that your empire has never even been to, let alone surveyed? Even when those systems are inaccessible using the hyperlanes that are your empire's only means of interstellar transport? It's theoretically possible to have systems in your boarders that you couldn't get to with warp as well.
I have to point out that the difference in scale between reaching the edge of a solar system (which varies depending on what you count as the edge) and reaching a neighbouring system is several orders of magnitude. That was the point of my island analogy. You build a guard tower on the middle of a 1km wide island and you can pretty effectively control that island, but to control neighboring islands as well you would need some kind of ICBM launcher. Or in the space setting, something like Starkiller Base.
The most sense you can make out of the old border system is not very much. It's a game mechanic with no in universe justification.

 

[erneiz_hyde]

I can concede the first point about not actually able to reach the system with a particular FTL method, that one never made sense to me as well. But you're an FTL race. Exerting sovereignty over several stars is really not that outrageous. If you can maintain supply for a 1000 fleet size armada deep in enemy territory, maintaining sovereignty in your border shouldn't be too hard.

 

[Creamu]

Wiz literally has to come out and clarify that Outposts ARE Starbases that cant be destroyed through conventional means. But the same people are like "But are they REALLY starbases Wiz? Please, I need more confirmation! You saying that Outposts are starbases isnt clear enough!"

The way the human brain works really is "amazing" sometimes. I dont even think its trolling.

 

[LambTaco]

I can concede the first point about not actually able to reach the system with a particular FTL method, that one never made sense to me as well. But you're an FTL race. Exerting sovereignty over several stars is really not that outrageous. If you can maintain supply for a 1000 fleet size armada deep in enemy territory, maintaining sovereignty in your border shouldn't be too hard.

Well, I'm not saying so much that they couldn't exert control over neighbouring systems. Just that they can't with whatever a frontier outpost is supposed to be. It would require something to be stationed in those systems, or some kind of interstellar wunderwaffe. At the very least it requires a lot of assumptions for it to make sense.
The more practical way to claim those system/islands would be with a level 0 starbase/flag. It's enough to say, "Hey, this is mine." It could be kind of neat if there were some mechanic for contesting low level claims without outright war. Anyone who's ever been forward settled in Civ can attest to that.

 

[erneiz_hyde]

And like I said, why would anyone comply with your demands to not colonize a system just because you have a shiny base in the sun? For it to be really really realistic, you need to build something over every asteroid and planet before you can say for certain that those are yours, but we simply have to assume those things have been done by the act of building that star base in the sun. Even if what you see in the game is just the starbase, it implies a lot of things as well to make the effect we see happening in the game.

 

[LambTaco]

And like I said, why would anyone comply with your demands to not colonize a system just because you have a shiny base in the sun? For it to be really really realistic, you need to build something over every asteroid and planet before you can say for certain that those are yours, but we simply have to assume those things have been done by the act of building that star base in the sun. Even if what you see in the game is just the starbase, it implies a lot of things as well to make the effect we see happening in the game.

I kind of agree with that. I imagine the level 0 starbase will be some sort of sensor array slash flagpole. It keeps an eye on the system to make sure nobody starts mining it's resources without permission, and acts as sort of dibs until you can get your own stuff set up thereby hailing every ship that enters the system telling them this is your space and unauthorised use will have consequences. The game should let players attempt to colonise planets in another empire's territory. Like sometimes happens in Star Trek. But the claimant to that territory should be able to disable the colony ship, or even bomb the colony to oblivion without going to war. It should let you enter closed borders as well. Just at the risk having the trespassers captured or killed.

 

[methegrate]

At the very least it requires a lot of assumptions for it to make sense.

I would think of it the other way around. The fact of the border means those assumptions have to be made. If the border exists, and if there are certain assumptions which could let that border exist (patrol ships, generally broadcast messages, a galactic cartographer's society, what have you), and if those assumptions have to be made in order for the border to exist, then the mere fact of the border's existence means those assumptions are true.

Whatever is involved with setting up an outpost, its construction represents a system politically, structurally and militarily sufficient to claim a system.

 

[Fisk]

The game should let players attempt to colonise planets in another empire's territory. Like sometimes happens in Star Trek. But the claimant to that territory should be able to disable the colony ship, or even bomb the colony to oblivion without going to war. It should let you enter closed borders as well. Just at the risk having the trespassers captured or killed.

When diplomacy is finally being fleshed out, I'm hoping this will be implemented, along with other ways of breaking "rules"/agreements.

 

[Riftwalker]

Incorrect on three points. First, linking three quotes just isn't inference, that's not even close to what inference means, and it doesn't even imply inference. Secondly, I didn't quote three sentences to prove one point, I made three quotes to prove two points. I didn't know what you were talking about for certain so I address Frontier Outposts and Starports. Thirdly, you are the one confused here.

I blame myself for your confusion. I made three quotes, but my post about Frontier Outposts got away from me somewhat and I felt adding information about Starports would just muddy the waters. In hindsight I should have just removed those two quotes entirely.



Because clearly you did get confused. Somehow, probably because you read the quotes and not the paragraph, you seem to think the section you quoted is about destructibility and is irrelevant. You have reached this conclusion without the word destructible being in that paragraph or the concept of destructibility being addressed even in the abstract. So I'll try briefly to explain again.

There is currently a system in game called "Frontier Outposts." Frontier Outposts will be entirely replaced by Starbases.

So the answer to any question about "Frontier Outposts" in the next expansion will be, "This has been entirely replaced by Starbases."

I can't make it any more simple than that. And you're not doing yourself any favors when you misunderstand other people and then claim they are confused.

hey, this isn't a PM. I wanted to not keep pulling this thread into a weird tangent, besides i doubt the majority of people care about this side track.

SERIOUSLY

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ry-91-starbases.1052064/page-38#post-23445559

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ry-91-starbases.1052064/page-38#post-23446116

you consistently misjudge my position.

I disagree with that. I'm fairly sure that they used the term "starbases" as a generalised term.

please just PM me.
*face in hands*

 

[lineararc]

- What will happen to Enigmatic Fortress?
- Will a captured Starbase will be considered "dead" until the end of the war (like a chess piece) or will it temporarily change the owner (like a strategic fortification that can shoot and all the other good stuffs)? The latter case seems unlikely considering we have global buildings but the former case doesn't work at all.

 

[The Shacks]

I'm all good with these changes ASLONG AS they scale the size of solar-systems up.

 

[Spleenman]

Just some random thoughts from a new player here. Been playing about a week. Now I hear a complete re-write is coming. Ugh.

Let's go through some topics to improve the game without a total rework, shall we?:

- unlimited fleet range. Needs hit hard with a nerf bat. If the Dev's would change this, I believe a lot of issues with wars, in your face AI, etc. would disappear. It's silly to have resources in the game that either aren't strategically important to increase your range or ship capabilities for warp. Add a fuel tech tree, limit range. This will force players and AI to act strategically, and not just build punk stacks that mysteriously show up with zero warning right after you throw your fleet at that ringworld. A second thing this does is give new players a chance to manage their growing empire without fatal consequences by year 100. Getting some time to "build up" isn't always a bad thing.

- wars and influence. I really, really, really wanna hit someone with a nerf bat on this one. In your face AI as soon as you run into them. Added random antagonistic computer for addition fun. First battle is crucial. Lose it, and you're likely to get CONSTANT influence demands, that eventually will lose you the war. Silly. Successful attacks or defenses should simply gain or lose influence. War is fluid and demands and strategy change over time for various reasons. A computer losing should not be able to make influence demands, especially not 100 at a time. Go look at MOO and you'll see computer's that sued for a few credits, conceding one system, etc. You shouldn't get your clock constantly cleaned since the aggressive AI (even when set non-aggressive) forced you to attack it. What they should have done is a kind of influence tug of war. A larger empire would have more influence, therefore is a more daunting opponent and would be less likely to get attacked for the heck of it. Consequently, a larger empire would be able to take a serious influence beating, whereas smaller ones, not so much. Set victory conditions to something like a loss of 50%-60% of your total influence. Loser would probably have forced government reform, loss of some key systems or limits on ability to wage war for a time, etc.

- Empire Borders. One aspect of the game I actually like and think is great. Now you're changing it entirely. Facepalm. Huge mistake getting rid of this feature. Some of us enjoy our empire having a "fence". If you fixed the other two issues, borders as is would be fine. They help one act strategic without actually having to pop a starbase or outpost at every location.

- Tech tree. Silly if you have a researcher that is good at physics but his/her only research options are biology. Likewise, how can one develop proton torpedoes before even developing the torpedo? I see that the devs may want a little randomness, but apply some logic here. There seems to be little ability to guide your tech tree in a certain direction. You might need your physics guy to research powerful lasers to fight that new empire that just got in your face, but instead your options are research improvement and hydroponic farms II. Ugh. Should have techs broken down into three or four areas, physics/social/engineering, with the ability to have sub areas of improvement like weapons, construction, etc. Maybe it's done randomly now? Need to be able to guide it more. Also, primitive techs cost more if developed later just because you might have "more systems". Silly. The more complicated the tech costs the more expensive it should be, and vice versa.

- Sector Management. I like this feature a lot, but what I don't like is not being able to see physically the boundaries I've set to my sectors at the galactic map level. Please consider changing this.

Shame that an entirely new way of doing things is coming. This game only needed a few minor tweaks to improve it, but now we're getting what looks like a massive change. Let me lay some advice on you devs: If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.

 

[Spleenman]

And like I said, why would anyone comply with your demands to not colonize a system just because you have a shiny base in the sun? For it to be really really realistic, you need to build something over every asteroid and planet before you can say for certain that those are yours, but we simply have to assume those things have been done by the act of building that star base in the sun. Even if what you see in the game is just the starbase, it implies a lot of things as well to make the effect we see happening in the game.

Well doesn't that shiny base give you a reason for taking it out for military and strategic planning reasons?

 

[Riftwalker]

I'd have to say, if I had a military installation and someone tried to set up a colony right next to it, i'd at the least have to send a diplomatic request for them to stop before i started firing missiles.

 

[Brent15]

Another thing I tend to dislike a bit is how sloppy the defenses look around the Starport - hoping this is just placeholder graphics.

Like the teasers I saw on wormholes!