Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries
Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Hearts of Iron IV 48384 Bug Reports 17323 After Action Reports (AAR)
Previous dev diary Next dev diary
Show only dev responses

Developer Corner | International Market

Hello there, it's me C0rax back for another dev corner, and some of you may have noticed in our last dev corner I mentioned in the MIO goals we wanted to have MIO’s “Provide a framework for national specialisms that can be used on the world stage” well I'm here to show you that stage and introduce international markets.

This is all super WIP, you are going to see WIP mock ups, and some details are still being finalized!

Feature Intent & goals

  • Introducing a place for nations to buy and sell equipment benefiting both nations with a reward. Creating a new way for countries to contribute specialist equipment to other nations
  • Be able to source equipment from other nations as needed
  • For majors to set the global standard for common place equipment leveraging their superior economic might.
The international market acts as a one stop shop for all your equipment needs from other countries. It's intended to be an international store front, with multiple sellers being able to sell the same thing from the same store front. This means that provided you have the appropriate market access, you can go into the international market and buy tanks from the USA and planes from germany in one interface (but not 1 buy order).


The Flow

So to start us on how to get to the market. Well we will be replacing the diplomacy menu with the market UI, the diplomacy window was one of the least used parts of the UI and so we want to replace it with something that will get more use. The diplomacy menu is now accessed from within the market menu at the bottom of the market window, you can also still right click on a country on the map to open diplomacy with them directly.
IM_01.png

From here we can start buying equipment or selling equipment by clicking on the respective button. Beyond that any currently active contract with other countries will be displayed here so you can easily see their current status.

The buy and sell modes look like this
image20.png

IM_02.png

As you can see we don't currently have access to anyones market, so let's look at how we can fix that.


Market access

For market access we need to go to the diplomacy menu for a country where we will find the negotiate market access diplo action, this is what we want in order to send a request. For nations with factions or puppets this market access is given implicitly. This is important since in many cases you don't want those pesky enemies seeing or trying to buy all the amazing equipment you are selling. This is especially important to stop them seeing your latest equipment stats and MIO modifiers. With this only the people you want to see and buy your wares are able to.
IM_03.png

So now we’ve got market access and we can start buying and selling equipment. Since we have access to a market the buy screen will now show the equipment they have put up for sale.

Buying
IM_04.png

Let's buy some rifles. To do this we click on the rifles equipment from here we choose how many rifles we want and how fast we want to pay for them and thus receive them. The price per rifle is decided by an IC to CiC conversion rate. This gives you all the information you need like total cost, convoys needed and how long it will take to pay/deliver all equipment
IM_05.png

We send of our request and the seller has agreed to the contract
IM_06.png

The contract will now appear in our market window as an ongoing contract, it will show all the information you need to know about each contract you have ongoing.
IM_07.png

Selling

Now let's look at how we sell our equipment on the market. To start off we need to add equipment to the market. We do this by first clicking sell equipment and then clicking the add to market buttons. From here we can add our equipment from the stockpile to the market. We can choose here how many of every variant we have we wish to put up for sale.
IM_08.png

So now we have put up some equipment on the market and it appears in the list. The list shows all of our equipment on the market but not currently sold on the market.
IM_09.png

Right on time we got a request to buy some of our equipment, this menu will show you what they are buying, how fast they are paying and how many the resultant deliveries there will be. We will accept this request.
IM_10.png

We have accepted the purchase request and now we can see the selling entry in our master list of contracts along with all the information around that contract.
IM_11.png

So that brings us to the end of our quick journey through the international market and we brushed over a lot of details so that what the next part will focus on.


Technical Details

Market Access
Market access is a Diplo action to request access to a market and to offer access to your market thus it is a Bilateral relationship. Faction members share market access, as do puppets and overlords.​

Market access blockers
  • Market access and Contracts are canceled between enemies in war.
  • Embargoing someone will cancel market access, and all selling/buying contracts with that country.
  • Capitulation cancels all contracts and if the country is NOT going into exile, it will lose all market access too.
  • Civil war will change nothing. The original country will have original market accesses and contracts after the start of the civil war.
  • Making a country puppet will cancel all market access and contracts of that country.
  • Losing market access to a country will not cancel an ongoing contract with that country.
  • Puppets can have market access to other countries (and not just to the overlord's market) and trade with them. (this might be based on puppet level)
  • There will be a scriptable limit on equipment trade for things like US neutrality act etc

Contracts

Purchasing equipment costs CiC. We use a conversion ratio to convert IC value to CiC value. A contract has 2 main variables, CiC cost from equipment and Civ factory allocation for payment

So with this information we can talk about how a contract is structured
IM_12.png

A contract is broken down into payments every 30 days. So every 30 days you will make a payment and receive equipment. The amount of equipment to be delivered is based on the payment rate of the buyer. So the more Civ’s you assign to a contract the more equipment you can receive per delivery.

Selling​

We have a new stockpile called the market stockpile, equipment can be moved from the normal stockpile to the market stockpile. Equipment in the market stockpile can be requested for purchase by any nation we share market access with.

Payment​

So payment is handled via a new construction entry for contracts. When you start a contract a new entry will be created in the construction menu for the number of factories you agreed to pay with and for the total CiC of the contract.this construction task has priority over normal construction.

Contract storage​

CiC payment and equipment before being delivered is stored in a “Contract storage”. At the end of the month the minimum payment/delivery is transferred to each country from the Contract storage. CiC is delivered to the bank while equipment is delivered to the equipment stockpile

The bank​

The bank is a special container for CiC you receive from other countries as payment for a contract it is used in construction by providing bonus CiC to your construction entries.

Here is a flow chart to show you how a contract payment works and then how the bank CiC is used in construction.
IM_13.png

Cancelation:​

Either side can request to cancel the contract at any time no more deliveries are made and all payment to the Contract storage is returned to their originator.

Things that are no part of this feature:
  • Trading Ships
  • Money
  • supply/demand pricing

Things that we are looking into:
  • Limited cost of equipment changes (some active choices, some passive)

​

MIO addendum​

Last dev corner I spoke about MIO’s, I did my best to explain and answer questions but I want to add an addendum to the previous dev corner to show some things that should hopefully make some things much clearer.

It seems there was some confusion that MIO’s were a totally free form “design your own company” system, this isn’t what was intended to be conveyed. MIO’s have pre predetermined choices which are designed to offer compromise and strategic choice. So Let's talk about what an MIO looks like in terms of a real MIO I get access to for a country.

I’m going to show some numbers here but these are just starting values for initial implementation and so don't read into the modifiers or values too much yet.

So here we have a Generic Infantry MIO
IM_14.png

So the definition for this MIO is

Design teams (red arrows show mutually exclusive)

  • INFANTRY OFFENSE DEPARTMENT
    IM_15.png


  • INFANTRY QUALITY DEPARTMENT
    IM_16.png


  • SUPPORT EQUIPMENT DEPARTMENT
    IM_17.png
INDUSTRIAL MANUFACTURERS
IM_18.png

As you can see this focuses almost exclusively on improving infantry equipment with small bonuses for support equipment. Generic MIO’s are generally focused on one specific equipment providing departments that are generally focused around offensive, defensive and quality/reliability.

Here's some more example of generics
IM_19.png

IM_20.png

Generics can sometimes also have specializations for specific stats that are not normally in the equipment specific ones also such as the aircraft range focuses MIO.
IM_21.png


Or pacific fleet MIO
IM_22.png

Of course these are generics and that is why they are very simple. They are there to replace the current generic designer set already present so every nation can enjoy some level of customisation for their mio’s. More major countries might have specific MIO’s that are unique to your country and thus offer very different choices to make. These are just some simple ones but they can be much more branched choices with lots of content tie-ins, but we will show those in a later dev diary.
IM_23.png

IM_24.png


I hope this makes what an MIO looks like as a structure you play with clearer and again I hope to see you in future dev corners.

That's all I have for this week, as always please ask questions and comment. I hope to see you in 2 weeks for the next Dev corner where Arheo will introduce you to another feature coming to you in the future
 

Attachments

  • IM_01.png
    IM_01.png
    430 KB · Views: 0
  • image20.png
    image20.png
    285,3 KB · Views: 0
Last edited by a moderator:
  • 45Like
  • 36Love
  • 7
  • 6
  • 2
Reactions:
Sort by date Sort by reaction score
Crecer13 said:
Buying resources for factories sounds very strange. Why not take a more realistic route. Gold. The game has resources like aluminum, chrome, and so on. Why not gold? At the beginning of the war, the USSR bought tanks and planes for gold and did not receive them under Lend-Lease. Gold then speeds up the construction of factories, roads, etc.
Click to expand...
Strategically in game, SU is already resource rich(have anything except rubber), so why make it even more rich?
 
marcelo r. r. said:
Strategically in game, SU is already resource rich(have anything except rubber), so why make it even more rich?
Click to expand...
Because everyone needed gold. Germany could keep fighting only because it robbed and spent gold. Swiss Independent Commission of Experts (SICE), based on primary Swiss and German banking documents. The head of this commission, Professor J.-F. Bergier, estimated the total gold transactions of the Hitlerite Reichsbank from September 1, 1939 to June 30, 1945 at 909.2 million dollars (808 tons), of which 475 million dollars (422 tons) of gold was stolen from the national banks of other countries. For example, Germany paid off with Sweden for the delivered goods with 60 tons of looted gold, which did not pass according to the reports of the National Bank of Sweden.
Gold is the universal monetary equivalent.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
Crecer13 said:
The head of this commission, Professor J.-F. Bergier, estimated the total gold transactions of the Hitlerite Reichsbank from September 1, 1939 to June 30, 1945 at 909.2 million dollars (808 tons), of which 475 million dollars (422 tons) of gold was stolen from the national banks of other countries.
Click to expand...
But that doesn't seem all that much in the global scale of war, i.e. the Soviets under the lend-lease deal received goods worth some 10-11 thousand tons of gold.

(And up to this day I see Soviet turbo patriots claiming that even that huge amount was in no way decisive, but that's a separate topic of its own)
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Dimmie_Dumm said:
But that doesn't seem all that much in the global scale of war, i.e. the Soviets under the lend-lease deal received goods worth some 10-11 thousand tons of gold.

(And up to this day I see Soviet turbo patriots claiming that even that huge amount was in no way decisive, but that's a separate topic of its own)
Click to expand...
It's only gold that has passed through the Reichsbank. The stolen gold was from the NSDAP, the SS and other Nazi organizations. This does not include jewelry that was stolen from people.

Germany simply could not fight without stealing gold. In the spring of 1945, Germany's gold reserves amounted to only a little over 100 tons, everything else was sold for resources.
 
Crecer13 said:
It's only gold that has passed through the Reichsbank. The stolen gold was from the NSDAP, the SS and other Nazi organizations. This does not include jewelry that was stolen from people.

Germany simply could not fight without stealing gold. In the spring of 1945, Germany's gold reserves amounted to only a little over 100 tons, everything else was sold for resources.
Click to expand...
How much is it in total, then?

The war could not have been sustained without a load of other goods either, and which were used or consumed rather directly and which the game doesn't acknowledge - food, explosives, coal and on we go. It's still unclear [to me] why it is gold, of all the things, to be added to benefit the game the most and why CIVs are not good enough as an abstraction mechanics. I.e. current on map resource deposits are there to be controlled and protected/intercepted after excavation, but what player interactions would gold provide as a resource?
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Dimmie_Dumm said:
How much is it in total, then?

The war could not have been sustained without a load of other goods either, and which were used or consumed rather directly and which the game doesn't acknowledge - food, explosives, coal and on we go. It's still unclear [to me] why it is gold, of all the things, to be added to benefit the game the most and why CIVs are not good enough as an abstraction mechanics. I.e. current on map resource deposits are there to be controlled and protected/intercepted after excavation, but what player interactions would gold provide as a resource?
Click to expand...
There is no exact information.

The same as they were. Buying / selling weapons for gold, building factories for gold without the participation of your civilian factories in the construction, renting factories or plants for gold, selling / buying resources. Also do something similar to the "Spanish Gold Reserve" event. By exchanging a certain amount of gold for a certain percentage of the reduction of civilian factories for civilian production. Buy licenses and technologies, financially support allies or buy loyalty.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:
Dimmie_Dumm said:
How much is it in total, then?

The war could not have been sustained without a load of other goods either, and which were used or consumed rather directly and which the game doesn't acknowledge - food, explosives, coal and on we go. It's still unclear [to me] why it is gold, of all the things, to be added to benefit the game the most and why CIVs are not good enough as an abstraction mechanics. I.e. current on map resource deposits are there to be controlled and protected/intercepted after excavation, but what player interactions would gold provide as a resource?
Click to expand...
Crecer13 said:
There is no exact information.

The same as they were. Buying / selling weapons for gold, building factories for gold without the participation of your civilian factories in the construction, renting factories or plants for gold, selling / buying resources. Also do something similar to the "Spanish Gold Reserve" event. By exchanging a certain amount of gold for a certain percentage of the reduction of civilian factories for civilian production. Buy licenses and technologies, financially support allies or buy loyalty.
Click to expand...
I would agree adding gold is a good idea.

Right now, inevitably the player always wins the war against AI, and Allies+ Comintern usually beat the Axis. But there is no way to measure how economical they were about it: it's all about casualties, nothing about the fact that you spent half of your economy on a war.

For example: everyone knows that once the USA joins the war, Axis usually have no chance due to the sheer difference in economical power. But what if the US chose to contribute only half of its historic industry to the war? It could have made the war a bigger challenge but also would make living conditions in the US a lot better.

I would add two things to HOI4 economy:
1. Gold (basically a store of value for civilian factory production)
2. Agricultural products (terrain based + a modifier due to population)

Adding these:
A) Allows to measure how much you spent to win. If you creamed the Axis at the cost of killing your economy: you achieved a pyrrhic victory.

B) Gives the Axis a better chance of winning: if the Allies underestimate the Axis players, they may be able to attrition the allies to a halt. Germany historically tried that, and failed.

C) Give a sense of meaning to minors: I know Paradox tries to give these research boni to minors to make them valuable, but come on, that's not sustainable. The victory for minors in HOI4 should be "I became richer because of the war by selling civilian stuff fighting countries didn't have the hands to produce" not "I turned the 5 kangaroos from Australia into Santa's warmachine-producing elves".

Minors never have the industry and now have few research slots for designer equipment (used to be South Africa could rush heavy tanks at a cost of 1 research slot, now they need at least 2 to do the same), so if they actually simply sell their agriculture and other resources to the fighting sides, they can achieve their own "victory" by growing their economy.
 
  • 4
Reactions:
KnyazSuvorov said:
Minors never have the industry and now have few research slots for designer equipment (used to be South Africa could rush heavy tanks at a cost of 1 research slot, now they need at least 2 to do the same), so if they actually simply sell their agriculture and other resources to the fighting sides, they can achieve their own "victory" by growing their economy.
Click to expand...
No one changes the game that radically when it's 7 years old already. The truth of HoI4 is that you pick any minor and go straight for a WC. Also new Focus Trees are getting stronger with each DLC to introduce them, not weaker. With heavy industry now emerging left and right via sheer national willpower, it's kinda hard to shove the djinn back into his bottle and force players to enjoy semi-peaceful activities, which have never been designed to begin with.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
Dimmie_Dumm said:
No one changes the game that radically when it's 7 years old already. The truth of HoI4 is that you pick any minor and go straight for a WC. Also new Focus Trees are getting stronger with each DLC to introduce them, not weaker. With heavy industry now emerging left and right via sheer national willpower, it's kinda hard to shove the djinn back into his bottle and force players to enjoy semi-peaceful activities, which have never been designed to begin with.
Click to expand...
Ahm... EUIV? Stellaris? Those games say something else.
 
why should i trade if i can lend lease?
or if i cannot lend lease, the trade will be a way to bypass this?
you still make no-sense "upgrades".
Please fix the logistic shit and the infinite naval training for USA
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Conad1985 said:
why should i trade if i can lend lease?
or if i cannot lend lease, the trade will be a way to bypass this?
you still make no-sense "upgrades".
Please fix the logistic shit and the infinite naval training for USA
Click to expand...
Sometimes you cannot lend lease because or world tension, ideology, lack of war, etc. Lend lease also, y'know, doesn't benefit you in any way as the producer, this is a way to get civs in return. It also allows you to acquire equipment from other countries that might not want to lend lease to you. They're different systems for different purposes.
I agree that there are many issues that need to be fixed, but rent & paychecks require money so they need to sell us something.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
ScottyWired said:
I know HOI4 will never add money but all these words... kinda sound like money...
Click to expand...
Money? What money, tomorrow your country will be occupied so that the value of your money will be equal to the cut paper. Give me gold. Another thought related to gold came to me after the fact that Germany seized the gold reserves of its former allies (Italy, Hungary) after they wanted to sign a peace treaty. If your ally is close to 80% capitulation, you can start a spy mission to steal gold from your allies.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Dear C0REX & the Paradox Design team,
I support this new feature set, especially in relation to the MIO feature set. I'll just play the devil's advocate here and make two comments, which I hope can be taken into consideration:

1. Trade, International Markets, and Production Licenses all revolve around the same theme of access to equipment -- either by acquiring them directly or indirectly (via raw materials), and using civ fac (or civ fac production) as the primary currency. Hence, I feel that these three concepts should really be harmonized and re-designed into one unified interface and mechanic.

2. While your usage stats do point to Diplomacy being the "least used" tab, this does not mean that it is not important. All respectable grand strategy games have a diplomacy dimension and mechanics. Diplomacy should continue to be a top-level tab. Perhaps this should really be a sign that the Diplomacy options and mechanics need a major revamp. For instance, many Peace Conference options and mechanics should be available in some way even outside of a Peace Conference.

In summary, I feel that (a) this feature set should really be integrated into Trade and (b) a separate revamp be done for Diplomacy.


Yiren.

[Addendum: Ideas that came out of the follow-on discussion in this thread]

  • Naval Base Access [already available, but added here for completeness]
  • Overland Access [already available, but added here for completeness]
  • Airbase Access [currently only available automatically as part of a faction, but should be requestable, but hard to obtain]
  • Demand State [currently only available vis-a-vis puppets]
  • Cede State [currently only available vis-a-vis puppets]
  • Demand Demilitarization [currently only available via peace conference, so the mechanic is there]
  • Jointly Demand Demilitarization [ask other nations with similar interest to jointly demand demilitarization of a state]
 
Last edited:
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
Yik Lin said:
1. Trade, International Markets, and Production Licenses all revolve around the same theme of access to equipment -- either by acquiring them directly or indirectly (via raw materials), and using civ fac (or civ fac production) as the primary currency. Hence, I feel that these three concepts should really be harmonized and re-designed into one unified interface and mechanic.
Click to expand...

Especially if they all work on the same diplomatic relations level. If only those countries that will lend-lease/give production license access to you will give you market access, that would be bad. I hope they make it so even those countries that don't like you (but aren't fighting against you) will sell you stuff.

Also, a question - since there are no supply/demand or price mechanics, and there can be multiple variants of the same equipment on the market, will who the AI chooses to buy from depend on trade relations?
 
At the top of the Development Diary it states that the international market would replace the diplomacy menu. Is there still something like it when the DLC is enabled, or will it be removed entirely? I like to use it to appease the major powers around me and to keep track of who is in what alliances.
 
The question is how AI will deal with participation in this market. Currently, a similar system works in relation to licenses, the problem is that AI completely ignores this system and is closed to any possibility of concluding agreements with countries ideologically different and not belonging to the same alliance.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back