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Developer Corner: Reinventing Faction Dynamics - Part 1

Generals!

Continuing from where we left off last week, we have another briefing from command. Find a comfortable chair, settle in and read on!

Briefing: Reinventing Faction Dynamics (Part 1)
Written by: @Wrongwraith

Hey all,

Dev corners are back. What are they and how do they differ from the Dev Diaries we normally do? The key difference is probably the scope. Dev corners are usually shorter. Here we discuss things that are sometimes very early in development, whereas Dev Diaries are usually about describing and explaining the new features that come with an expansion. So less details, and also a lot less pretty screenshots. And above all, a lot more Work in Progress - the things we talk about here might not even make it into the game in the end - at least not in the shape they are presented.

But enough of that, on to what I was supposed to talk about. Today’s subject is Reinventing Faction Dynamics…

Not much has happened to factions since release, so we figured it was time to take a look at them. The main difference is that there are more of them as more countries can, and do, create factions now. But in general they are all very similar, and you don’t feel any difference playing as the Axis as opposed to the Allies, the Comintern, or the Chinese United Front - for example. The goal here is to change that. To make factions feel more unique, and immersive at the same time.

Before we continue I should reiterate that this is very early stages - so not much in terms of final UI is implemented, sometimes you can’t do things except by commands, and in general things are constantly changing - so don’t expect pretty pictures!

But look at it from the bright side - you get to see very early UX mock ups - and some beautiful “coder art:)


Core Concepts

Today I will try to run you through the core concepts of what we are doing with factions. Later on I will dive deeper into details, but for now, I’ll try to keep it relatively high level and give you the big picture of what we are working on for this feature.


dc_factiondynamics1_001.png

Early mockup of Faction Window Header - showing the Manifest, the Faction Icon, and the Faction Power Projection

Each faction has a manifest. The manifest is about what the faction wants to do. Conquer new land, Stop the spread of fascism - or similar longer term purposes.

Each manifest will have a percentage of fulfillment - that can go up or down during gameplay. If the fulfillment is high enough, some bonuses will unlock - depending on the type of manifest.


dc_factiondynamics1_002.png

In-game view of the Faction header with manifest for the Allies - this is as raw as a screenshot will get. Placeholder art, no tooltips, no graphics added, and no attention to placement or final elements. But it is there, and it is working, and as the Allies, we want to defend democracy


Faction Goals

In addition to the Manifest each faction will have shorter or longer term strategic goals. These can be things like conquest of specific territory or control, or instigation, of resources..

These goals, once completed, will give the faction members rewards that they can use to modify their faction in various ways - as well as more standard rewards like Army Experience.

Together with the Manifest, the Goals will give the faction a direction. A direction you need not follow if you don’t want to, but if you do you will be rewarded.


dc_factiondynamics1_003.png

Example Goal set up for the Axis. Again please note that the screenshot is an early prototype.


Rules

Each faction comes with a set of rules. These generally relate to a specific action type. Like for example who can join the faction or who in the faction can declare war.

Some examples:
A rule for joining can be based on the ideology of the joining country. For example, the rule might state that only non-fascist countries can join. (It won’t prevent a country from turning fascist later though). Another Joining rule can be based on Geography, saying that only countries from a specific region can join.

Other types or rules relate to things such as:
Peace Conferences - Giving you bonuses to certain types of actions
War Declaration - Who can declare war and what are the requirements
Call to war - Who can call to war, just the faction Leader, anyone, or Just Majors etc
Dismissal - When can you kick someone from the faction
Contribution - What are the minimum requirements for contribution to the faction
Leadership Challenge - What are the requirements for taking over leadership

There will probably be a few more, and some of these might not make it, but you get the general idea.

These rules can be changed during gameplay, if the Faction leader, or any other member country, has Faction Initiatives available to do so.


dc_factiondynamics1_004.png

UX mockup for changing your Rules (in this case the Join Faction Rules)

Speaking of Faction Initiatives - lets move on to:


Faction Initiatives and Goals Rewards

Initiatives are what you use to change things in your faction. These Initiatives are gained from completing Goals. Most goals will give one Initiative to the faction leader when completed. Some might give to other members as well. And if you have an Initiative to spare, you can change a rule. Or you can remove one. Or add one - it is basically up to you to decide what to spend your Initiative on, and how to modify your faction. But choose carefully, for initiatives will be few. (Which also means you won’t be spammed with decisions to make - which is something we want to avoid.)

Other ways to spend Initiatives
Apart from just changing the rule set for the faction, you can add specific upgrades to your faction to make it more unique.

Example of upgrades you will be able to do are:
Adding or improving Research Sharing
Adding or improving Military Doctrine Sharing
Adding a Faction Supreme Commander
Start up joint research sites


dc_factiondynamics1_005.png

UX mockup of the research part of the Factions screen.


Influence and contribution

The last thing I want to talk about today is Influence and its close relative; Contribution.

Each member Country has an Influence rating in the faction. This is basically an internal power level - how important a member are you within the faction?
Countries with high influence get more things from goal completions. Meaning they will also have a say in how the faction evolves - as some of these rewards can be Initiatives.

Additionally, in order to take over leadership of a faction you need to have a minimum level of influence.

You gain influence by War participation, Contributions, Industrial might, and from “Events”. Events can be various things depending on the faction and the content - but can include things such as executing daring Raids, or from focuses or decisions.

Of these, Contribution is probably the most interesting to talk about. Basically whenever a country delivers something to the faction, or to other faction members they gain “contribution score” - which is directly reflected in their influence rating. Whenever someone receives contributions, or “withdraws” from the faction pool, they lose contribution score - thus lowering their influence.

This means that Influence will build up and fluctuate over time.

Another use of influence is in peace conferences. When your faction is on the winning side, all member countries will pool some of their war score, and this will be given to the most influential countries in the faction. Similar to the game setting where the Faction Leader can get part of other members’ scores. But here it is not just the faction leader, so if you are an important part of your faction, you will get more say in the peace deal even if you are not the faction leader.

What are contributions then?

Generally they are things you can do to support your faction or your faction members - such as sending expeditionary forces, pooling manpower for use by the faction, producing industrial goods, Lend lease to faction members. Those kinds of things. Some of those we already have in the game, but the goal is to streamline them a bit. Others are new - but regardless of whether they are new or old, they will contribute to your contribution score - thus making you more (or less) important in the faction.


Some Final Words

Another thing we want to add when working with factions, is the ability to tell your fellow allies where you want them to focus their efforts. Similar to how you can create pings to multiplayer allies, you should be able to tell your AI allies that I want you to focus on this region. It shouldn’t mean that they abandon everything else, but rather just increase their attention here.

That was all for this time. I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts, and I’ll do my best to answer questions, but do bear with me, I won’t be able to answer everything - party from a time perspective, but also based on the fact that there are quite a few things that are as yet undecided, or at least relatively untested - so I might not know what the end result will be. If it doesn’t play out fine, or smooth - things will change. But I will do my best.

Additionally, I hope to be able to give you a few more details in a few weeks time - because as you can see if you look at the draft schedule presented earlier, I do have yet another slot for this.

And as I said, what you have seen here will most certainly differ from what will eventually make it into the game. It takes many iterations, and a lot of feedback to get a feature completed. But I hope you enjoyed this little peek into what I/we are doing at the moment.

/Wrongwraith
 
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This stuff looks really underdeveloped... which is a good thing! I really appreciate the community input early on, the engagement here and finally some attention to the fundamental aspects of the game. Great work! Looking forward to this.
 
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Cool! Now we just need religion to be a thing in HoI4 so that The Catholic Dominion can revive the crusades!

On a more serious note, wouldn't it be better to make Initiative a float instead of a integer? Instead of making all nations with over 30% influence gain 1 initiative, you could just give every nation some initiative, scaled accordingly to their respective influence. That way, even minor nations can eventually accrue enough initiative to influence the faction, while still giving most of the control to the majors.
 
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Diplomacy is absolutely the most lacking mechanic in HOI at the moment, so I welcome development in that area, but I think these plans basically move things in the complete wrong direction. This adds a lot of mechanics that will create at least as many problems as they solve and do nothing to enable the actual diplomatic manoeuvres that the game should model.

Factions should be conceived of as a patron-client relationship in which members give up a portion of their sovereignty in exchange for military protection and piece of the pie in case of victory. It's easy to see this if you ask yourself: could a given faction member be compelled to make a (serious, lasting) separate peace without the consent of the faction leader? If not, the faction member is not a fully sovereign country. If so, the 'member' is not actually a faction member in terms that the game understands. As a consequence of this, there are no faction membership rules beyond the faction leader's will and practical ability to project power. Any rules that do exist will be bent, amended, excepted or ignored as necessary when the faction leader's foreign policy requires. It's true that e.g. Czechoslovakia should not be able to join the Chinese United Front, but this is because China had no ability to exert military force in Central Europe, not because a piece of paper somewhere tells them that they're not allowed. Likewise, no faction has ever had any purpose other than advancing the foreign policy of its leader. That some appear more aggressive and some more defensive is primarily a function of whether the leader starts with a large empire to be defensive of.

Faction influence essentially duplicates war score. Faction members changing rules makes little sense because, as a consequence of the above, faction leaders should be able to amend rules at will. "Umm, sorry Mr. President, the Your Faction Name Here club charter won't let you do that." <-- This has never happened, ever. & without that, influence just adds a little extra bureaucracy to systems that already exist--if there are problems with those systems then amend them, otherwise lose the extra paperwork.

Summing up a little:
  • Despite diplomacy being extremely barebones, this adds new buttons to press but no new meaningful interactions.
  • Faction rules will create as many problems as they solve--already on the first page of replies people are naming several scenarios in which exceptions might be needed. I think not being allowed to do things in your own faction because the club charter sez no will be a major source of player frustration (as well as being unrealistic).
  • I think this system basically attempts to model the PR/propaganda of various factions as if it were all true, rather than modelling the underlying realities of those diplomatic relationships. Great powers have foreign policy goals and craft mission statements to align with those, not the other way around.
The one positive I will end on is that an ability to give objectives & focuses to the AI is an extremely welcome addition, so I'm happy about that.
I agree with you on the diplomacy portion. The faction leader should be the supreme power unless someone else has a lot of influence, in which case, they can succeed you and become the faction leader.

As for faction power projection, you are also absolutely right, countries should not join factions across the continent without rules. For instance, the land, air, and naval power projection can serve as a deciding factor. If the countries have a border, yes. If the faction leader's plane can reach a nation, yes. If the leader's ship can reach the nation, yes. Rules as such make sense.

Given that this game is about WWII (as opposed to Victoria and EU, where it's a long period of global interaction that doesn't focus on global conflict), where the entire globe fights each other, I am somewhat OKAY with the lack of meaningful diplomacy. But to echo Emoneh's point, I want the update to fix existing problems without adding more.

The first step should be finding out what absolutely needs to change and then amending it. Everything new can take lots of community feedback.
 
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When it comes to the Supreme Commander, will it work somewhat like giving a field marshal, and their traits, for all of your allies? Or will this feature be more like a spy master where you have access to more of your allies' armies/troops to do major operations, say a certain amphibious landing in Normandy.

Basically, will it be assigning a field marshal to give stat bonuses for everyone, or will it be assigning a country/player to have more resources to work with?
 
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I’m intrigued to see how the allied supreme commander function plays out. How many times have I meticulously planned an invasion of Fortress Europe, only for my allies to cue the D-Day speech track as they storm the beaches without me while I’m still gathering my forces. I’m looking forward to what’s reveal next.
 
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You mean Spain and Central and South American countries won't be able to join the Axis or the Co prosperity sphere suicidally like they do now ?

Good!

I also like the idea of new method taking over factions. Take for example taking over the Allies as the US, you have to make a silly amount of divisions to take over from the UK, divisions you aren't likely to actually use or need.
 
I think what could be really useful is an ideology rework, specifically separating ideology from alignment. Factions could represent the world alignment of a country i.e. who amongst our neighbors are best as allies to achieve our war goals. Ideology should represent what a country can do domestically like which advisors can be hired or not. This can also make room for a fifth ideology in monarchism, given the proliferation of monarchist alt-history paths currently in the game.
 
The manifest of the allies should be stopping fascism instead of defence of democracy, later when they reform into NATO their manifest should become stopping communism and they should get the geographic restriction to only north American(or just the US and Canada, I'm not sure) and European countries being able to join
 
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Also the geographic restrictions are a blessing, no more Balkan countries in the Chinese united front or Spain in the greater east Asian co-prosperity sphere
 
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Is this going to come with a change to how major nations are currently handled, where the leader of a faction is automatically a major and all majors of a faction must capitulate for the faction to capitulate? Because the current system leaves quite a bit to be desired with some factions being near-impossible to capitulate as other nations within them gain major status and some factions will completely collapse with one small push against their faction leader.
 
Generals!

Continuing from where we left off last week, we have another briefing from command. Find a comfortable chair, settle in and read on!

Briefing: Reinventing Faction Dynamics (Part 1)
Written by: @Wrongwraith

Hey all,

Dev corners are back. What are they and how do they differ from the Dev Diaries we normally do? The key difference is probably the scope. Dev corners are usually shorter. Here we discuss things that are sometimes very early in development, whereas Dev Diaries are usually about describing and explaining the new features that come with an expansion. So less details, and also a lot less pretty screenshots. And above all, a lot more Work in Progress - the things we talk about here might not even make it into the game in the end - at least not in the shape they are presented.

But enough of that, on to what I was supposed to talk about. Today’s subject is Reinventing Faction Dynamics…

Not much has happened to factions since release, so we figured it was time to take a look at them. The main difference is that there are more of them as more countries can, and do, create factions now. But in general they are all very similar, and you don’t feel any difference playing as the Axis as opposed to the Allies, the Comintern, or the Chinese United Front - for example. The goal here is to change that. To make factions feel more unique, and immersive at the same time.

Before we continue I should reiterate that this is very early stages - so not much in terms of final UI is implemented, sometimes you can’t do things except by commands, and in general things are constantly changing - so don’t expect pretty pictures!

But look at it from the bright side - you get to see very early UX mock ups - and some beautiful “coder art:)


Core Concepts

Today I will try to run you through the core concepts of what we are doing with factions. Later on I will dive deeper into details, but for now, I’ll try to keep it relatively high level and give you the big picture of what we are working on for this feature.


View attachment 1313279
Early mockup of Faction Window Header - showing the Manifest, the Faction Icon, and the Faction Power Projection

Each faction has a manifest. The manifest is about what the faction wants to do. Conquer new land, Stop the spread of fascism - or similar longer term purposes.

Each manifest will have a percentage of fulfillment - that can go up or down during gameplay. If the fulfillment is high enough, some bonuses will unlock - depending on the type of manifest.


View attachment 1313280
In-game view of the Faction header with manifest for the Allies - this is as raw as a screenshot will get. Placeholder art, no tooltips, no graphics added, and no attention to placement or final elements. But it is there, and it is working, and as the Allies, we want to defend democracy


Faction Goals

In addition to the Manifest each faction will have shorter or longer term strategic goals. These can be things like conquest of specific territory or control, or instigation, of resources..

These goals, once completed, will give the faction members rewards that they can use to modify their faction in various ways - as well as more standard rewards like Army Experience.

Together with the Manifest, the Goals will give the faction a direction. A direction you need not follow if you don’t want to, but if you do you will be rewarded.


View attachment 1313282
Example Goal set up for the Axis. Again please note that the screenshot is an early prototype.


Rules

Each faction comes with a set of rules. These generally relate to a specific action type. Like for example who can join the faction or who in the faction can declare war.

Some examples:
A rule for joining can be based on the ideology of the joining country. For example, the rule might state that only non-fascist countries can join. (It won’t prevent a country from turning fascist later though). Another Joining rule can be based on Geography, saying that only countries from a specific region can join.

Other types or rules relate to things such as:
Peace Conferences - Giving you bonuses to certain types of actions
War Declaration - Who can declare war and what are the requirements
Call to war - Who can call to war, just the faction Leader, anyone, or Just Majors etc
Dismissal - When can you kick someone from the faction
Contribution - What are the minimum requirements for contribution to the faction
Leadership Challenge - What are the requirements for taking over leadership

There will probably be a few more, and some of these might not make it, but you get the general idea.

These rules can be changed during gameplay, if the Faction leader, or any other member country, has Faction Initiatives available to do so.


View attachment 1313283
UX mockup for changing your Rules (in this case the Join Faction Rules)

Speaking of Faction Initiatives - lets move on to:


Faction Initiatives and Goals Rewards

Initiatives are what you use to change things in your faction. These Initiatives are gained from completing Goals. Most goals will give one Initiative to the faction leader when completed. Some might give to other members as well. And if you have an Initiative to spare, you can change a rule. Or you can remove one. Or add one - it is basically up to you to decide what to spend your Initiative on, and how to modify your faction. But choose carefully, for initiatives will be few. (Which also means you won’t be spammed with decisions to make - which is something we want to avoid.)

Other ways to spend Initiatives
Apart from just changing the rule set for the faction, you can add specific upgrades to your faction to make it more unique.

Example of upgrades you will be able to do are:
Adding or improving Research Sharing
Adding or improving Military Doctrine Sharing
Adding a Faction Supreme Commander
Start up joint research sites


View attachment 1313284
UX mockup of the research part of the Factions screen.


Influence and contribution

The last thing I want to talk about today is Influence and its close relative; Contribution.

Each member Country has an Influence rating in the faction. This is basically an internal power level - how important a member are you within the faction?
Countries with high influence get more things from goal completions. Meaning they will also have a say in how the faction evolves - as some of these rewards can be Initiatives.

Additionally, in order to take over leadership of a faction you need to have a minimum level of influence.

You gain influence by War participation, Contributions, Industrial might, and from “Events”. Events can be various things depending on the faction and the content - but can include things such as executing daring Raids, or from focuses or decisions.

Of these, Contribution is probably the most interesting to talk about. Basically whenever a country delivers something to the faction, or to other faction members they gain “contribution score” - which is directly reflected in their influence rating. Whenever someone receives contributions, or “withdraws” from the faction pool, they lose contribution score - thus lowering their influence.

This means that Influence will build up and fluctuate over time.

Another use of influence is in peace conferences. When your faction is on the winning side, all member countries will pool some of their war score, and this will be given to the most influential countries in the faction. Similar to the game setting where the Faction Leader can get part of other members’ scores. But here it is not just the faction leader, so if you are an important part of your faction, you will get more say in the peace deal even if you are not the faction leader.

What are contributions then?

Generally they are things you can do to support your faction or your faction members - such as sending expeditionary forces, pooling manpower for use by the faction, producing industrial goods, Lend lease to faction members. Those kinds of things. Some of those we already have in the game, but the goal is to streamline them a bit. Others are new - but regardless of whether they are new or old, they will contribute to your contribution score - thus making you more (or less) important in the faction.


Some Final Words

Another thing we want to add when working with factions, is the ability to tell your fellow allies where you want them to focus their efforts. Similar to how you can create pings to multiplayer allies, you should be able to tell your AI allies that I want you to focus on this region. It shouldn’t mean that they abandon everything else, but rather just increase their attention here.

That was all for this time. I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts, and I’ll do my best to answer questions, but do bear with me, I won’t be able to answer everything - party from a time perspective, but also based on the fact that there are quite a few things that are as yet undecided, or at least relatively untested - so I might not know what the end result will be. If it doesn’t play out fine, or smooth - things will change. But I will do my best.

Additionally, I hope to be able to give you a few more details in a few weeks time - because as you can see if you look at the draft schedule presented earlier, I do have yet another slot for this.

And as I said, what you have seen here will most certainly differ from what will eventually make it into the game. It takes many iterations, and a lot of feedback to get a feature completed. But I hope you enjoyed this little peek into what I/we are doing at the moment.

/Wrongwraith
If there are rules to join factions based on ideology, what about getting events to kick out countries that switch to the banned ideology? Or even declaring war on them. What to do with members that "betray" the faction from within could be rules on themselves.
 
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Will there be a new map-mode to show continents?

I see you may limit factions to continents and as it is, you can recruit officers/spies based on it. Such a thing would be helpful if it was better defined. It's currently hard to determine where the middle-east ends and asia begins or if there's cross-over.
 
This is a great idea and really well executed but I was wondering what about neutral factions like the Balkan Pact?
Will they also have the ability to support each other in terms of development?
For example could they open a military factory in another member country in exchange for resources or engage in trade deals?

I really love the concept of this new faction system but I think it could be even better if there were also economic factions, unions or alliances focused on mutual development and trade.
These could allow member states to assist one another through investments, shared infrastructure or resource exchanges.
Such a system could also help fill the post-WW2 gap where the Cold War becomes more about economic influence between the Western and Eastern blocs.

Because that’s also another thing I have been thinking about.
I really love Hoi4 as a war simulator focused on WWII and that era but what if there was an additional start date set in the post-WW2 period?
Imagine reaching the end of your campaign, having achieved your goals and then unlocking a final option “Continue into the Cold War.” where you get to play through the Cold War era:
  • Rising tensions between the USSR and the USA
  • Nuclear arms/Space race
  • The Cuban Missile Crisis
  • The Korean and Vietnam Wars
  • Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe
  • The decolonization of Africa

It would open up a whole new chapter for Hoi4 adding depth and long term gameplay potential beyond just WW2.
I think it could be an incredible expansion or even a dedicated mode.
Nukes would have a more significant strategic impact and diplomacy, espionage and proxy wars could play a bigger role...
Ah what a dream it would be.
I hope they add it - extending the time frame of the game would bring a lot of fun! CK 3 will soon get an expansion of the map to include all of Asia, so also HoI 4 could get something extra!
 
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I like that factions will get a refit and the ideas floating around. I'm most curious whether (and if how) it will solve the problem with HoI's "foe-of-my-foe-is-my-friend"-principle leading to countries joining "unfitting" factions just because of being attacked by someone. Ideally, it will need to more cases where countries just have to fight outside of factions.

Also it would be cool if two factions fighting a 3rd one would be able to cooperate a bit more, e.g. it would be helpful as the Allies to see what the SU actually needs as land-lease.
 
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There would be a possibility to add a cooperation function between Factions?
 
Soviet-Allies interaction would be nice. The Tehran, Yalta and Potsdam conferences could actually do something, like making the Soviets join the war against Japan
 
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Will we still see things like Belgium and Peru joining the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, or Yugoslavia being the only member in the Chinese United Front?

What about Soviet civil wars where the Comintern gets replaced by an auto-generated faction?
 
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1. What happens if you're in more than one faction, or is that no longer possible? Anticomintern + Axis/Allies?

2. What is with the enemy of the enemy? For example as Poland i can bring neutral Yugoslavia to join Russia maybe Germany or as Manchukuo also neutral Portugal to join China or Allies?

3. What is with some traits - will you change it? The warrior code was completely pointless for Manchukuo.


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Loving the look of this and excited to see more of it, but I do have a question on how the faction goals work.

Are the goals inherent to each faction, or are they also something we might be able to change with initiatives? Or are they something that might change based on focuses and the like?

For example, looking at the mockup, the goals for the Axis seem very reasonable for a historic playthrough, but securing the north atlantic isn't much of a goal if for example the UK goes down the King's party and joins the Axis, or for that matter north africa probably wouldn't be much of a goal if Italy goes off to make its own faction, so will there be a way to change these goals, or is that just going to be something we'll have to play around?

Also, will these unique and targeted goals be unique to the big factions (Allies, Axis, Comintern, Co-Prosperity) while everyone else gets a generic set of goals, or is the idea that smaller factions that can spawn will also have some specific goals in mind?

Thanks in advance, and again, this looks like great fun!
 
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