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Developer Diary #25: Advanced Combat and Weapons

To see the Dev Diary complete with videos, please check out our website.

Hello Kindred,

It’s been about a year since we last talked about combat in Dev Diary 7, so the team have put this article together to give you a deeper dive into the things you can do as you go bump in the night.

Brawling​

When blades come out in BL2, unless you've taken extra care to isolate your prey, you're going to be outnumbered. While several discipline abilities can help you escape or swiftly resolve a fight, you'll need to do a bit of brawling when those options aren't available. Spacing is key - your basic attacks can make short work of individuals but are risky when you're getting sliced apart from all sides.

The basic attacks get used a lot, so during their development, I was keen to make time to give each clan their own set. Banu is sharp and fast, Ventrue firm and precise, Tremere has a bit more reach to let you maintain distance, and Brujah, well, punches stuff. It’s a small thing, but I found it really helped people get into the attitude and poise of their current clan.

Dashing is an ability Phyre can use regardless of clan and is critical for maintaining distance. It can even be used aggressively - dashing forwards into a strike right as it hits will break your opponent's guard and leave them open for a counterattack, though this is best suited for one-on-one situations.


Kicks are another useful tool and are great for handling groups - done by attacking straight after a dash, you can pick which type you use with your movement direction. A big swinging roundhouse can stumble a large group but won't create much space - whereas a backkick can send a single enemy soaring away. Both you and your opponents will be able to resist attacks used repeatedly, so you'll want to mix things up a bit to stay on top.


While kicks are great for getting opponents away from you, telekinesis is perfect for bringing them close. You can use it to yank a chosen target in for a follow-up or a feed, though consider that Kindred and their ghouls may be expecting this.

Telekinesis can also earn a quick kill when used to pull an unsuspecting enemy near the edge of a rooftop, causing them to fall to their death on the street below.


Breakable objects, like bottles and ashtrays, can be grabbed using telekinesis and then thrown to create a noise, distracting enemies. If you really want to create a bang, pick up and throw an explosive, such as a gas tank – a good way to hurt several enemies at once.

Telekinesis can also be used to pick up weapons from the dead, from knives to sniper rifles. A goal of Phyre’s combat design was to be fast and fluid, so we incorporated the use of Telekinesis with weapon use to maintain speed and flow – you can kill one opponent, dump their gun’s magazine into a second, and toss it at a third to open them up for your next attack.


This can be even more useful when used in tandem with discipline abilities. For example, Tremere's explosive blood curse can be triggered from a distance with a well-placed shot, and Brujah's taunt (when used with mass manipulation) can encourage a whole team of opponents to drop their weapons, allowing you to turn them on their owners.


And, of course, the bigger they come, the harder they fall- When fighting enemies equipped with explosives, telekinesis can lead to an even more devastating turnabout.
- Senior Game Designer Max Bottomley

Elixirs​

Our setting of Seattle features a large population of Thin-bloods: weaker vampires who use alchemy to create powerful “elixirs” that give access to the vampiric powers they otherwise could not. As you explore, you can find and collect these elixirs to give you an edge in combat or help level the playing field in a difficult boss encounter.

The four elixirs Phyre can use are:
  • Mending Elixir – Instantly restores health, allowing you to avoid final death.
  • Blood Elixir – Instantly restores blood pips for your abilities, great for continuing ability combo chains.
  • Potence Elixir – Temporarily boosts your strength, increasing the damage caused by your attacks.
  • Fortitude Elixir – Temporarily turns your skin to marble, reducing the damage you take from attacks.

Ability Combos​

Having recently started a playthrough to test out my favourite Clan Tremere, I’ve enjoyed the sense of space control a well-planned fight can give you. Starting out by placing Recall up high so that I can teleport away if it gets out of hand.

Later in the game, mixing Disciplines from different Clans can make fighting more powerful Kindred much easier. There are a lot of useful combinations that Ventrue’s Mass Manipulation can provide to manage many combatants at once. The effect of Banu Haqim’s Mute on a group can make sure the battle will go unnoticed by nearby enemies. And it’s not just your own powers but the environment that you’ll have to observe, helping you find tools that are left lying around.

Not all enemies will go down that easily, and I’m really excited for you all to learn how much trouble you’ll be in when you face off against your first Kindred foe. Their powers can quickly make well-planned fights go wrong if you’re knocked over and surrounded.

Using Cauldron of Blood to draw everyone to the screaming victim and then picking one of them to explode with Blood Curse can blast a lot of the crowd away before I even get close to the fighting. And when it does go wrong, as it always will eventually, a quick Blood Curse on the ghoul chasing you can serve as a very handy projectile if you kick them into the people behind them!


Nobody’s invulnerable to an exploding gas bottle telekinetically thrown at their head, and they’re easier to aim at when you’ve locked them in place with Mass Manipulation. If everything else fails then you can just use Possession on a ghoul and make them jump somewhere nobody will notice them…
- Josh Mathews, TCR Community Manager

Difficulty Settings​

While difficulty settings are a standard feature for action RPGs, we thought we’d mention that they are included because we recognise our audience's varied preferences for challenges and strive to accommodate them with carefully designed difficulty settings.

For players primarily interested in narrative and exploration, Easy mode ensures a smooth experience by making combat encounters more manageable.

Normal mode represents the intended balance of the game, challenging players to adapt and use a mix of stealth, combat, abilities, and elixirs to succeed.

For those seeking a more formidable challenge, Hard mode delivers an Elder Vampire experience, demanding mastery of all your skills and strategies.


Difficulty Settings.png

- Project Design Director Jey Hicks

UpcomingSingle DD25.png
 
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As i understand it ... they didnt "forgot" per se ... they more likely just decided to not include that option at all.

To say "they forgot" was ironic.

I just think that since the version I bought included, apart from two expansions, I was supposed to get cool weapons and outfits, I expect exactly what I paid for. The fact that the dev has changed in the meantime doesn't interest me much. If necessary, let them paste the weapon mechanics from the previous version of the game. Or they will add this mechanic, available only to those who pre-ordered.

Usually, when I go to a car showroom to buy a Mazda, I expect a Mazda because I paid for it, and not someone delivers me a Fiat and says be glad you have a car at all.

For one ... that is not true, on the contrary we know about lots of Vampires that preffered guns, hunters use guns, and i could quote several characters from first game that keep warning our protagonists that "shotgun blast to the head, oh thats touble". ;)

For two ... even if that would be true, it wouldnt be valid reason ... we dont really care what "most vampires" and "usualy" care about. What is and should be important for us is what "our protagonist care about". ;)

And finaly for three ... since there is allready implemented option to use those, even if kinda goofy and over the top way, it seem rather wasting to throw that away.

-> I say keep using levitation to fire guns, if you REALLY must ... but allow us at least to arm oureselves in advance. :-/

I would consider the Schot Gun as a large-caliber weapon, especially with dum dum cartridges. Small arms are no obstacle for a vampire. After all, you can't shoot a dead body. Well, no matter how you look at it, a vampire is a corpse bearing the curse of Cain.

Hunters, however, as far as I know, use weapons with special consecrated ammunition. The question is how much damage is caused by the weapon itself and how much by the unwavering true faith of the hunters.

Is it tho?

I mean ... okey, stakes are fair point ... no arguments there.

But speaking about anything else?
I mean, if we come out of asumption that game developers are (as it seems) are using right now ... that no matter what, body of vampire is the best weapon ... and yes, that basicaly means that your fists hit harder than steel tube ...
(i know, it sounds ridiculous, bcs it frankly is)
... then, honestly, its the other way around ... there is lots of benefits to use conventional guns, but little to no reason to use cold weapons. :-/

I mean sure, cuting limbs sounds great!
But that is something even games that are specificly focused on that kind of damage (Star Wars: Survivor) didnt put together properly even after it being their focus for whole development process ... expecting something like that being added "in the spare time" sounds unrealistic. :)

On the one hand, I understand the approach that a vampire's body is hard, but on the other hand, AvP had a mechanics of cutting off limbs, and it's a game from 1999! The year is 2025, i.e. two and a half decades of software and game systems development.
 
To say "they forgot" was ironic.
I see ...
It was hard to say from text with no tone. :)

I expect exactly what I paid for.
Wich is an understandable one ... but misstake nevertheless. :)

I mean, come on ... when did it work this way? :D
Even with Larian who were quite transparent with their game, the final product was quite different from all that was promised during EA. :)

The fact that the dev has changed in the meantime doesn't interest me much.
That is fair ...

But im affraid your (well, to be fair i should say ours) expectations are just as important for them. :)
I mean ... why should they care? :D

If necessary, let them paste the weapon mechanics from the previous version of the game.
What makes you think that is even possible ...
Or that they still have "previous version of the game" ? :)

Usually, when I go to a car showroom to buy a Mazda, I expect a Mazda because I paid for it, and not someone delivers me a Fiat and says be glad you have a car at all.
Fair ...
Usually tho, i bet you dont wait for 7y for your Mazda, you werent told by car showroom repeatedly that Mazda were cancelled, there is no Mazda left and there will never ever be any Mazda for you ... and if you dont refund your pre-payment you get Fiat instead.

Wich is basicaly what happened here.

You ordered a Steak and then waited ... and waited ... and waited ...
... chef was fired ... and you waited ...
... kitchen burned our ... and you waited ...
... the whole restaurant bankrupted ... and you waited ...
... building was torn down ... and you waited ...
... new building was build around you ... and you waited ...
... vegan restaurant was established ... and you waited ...
... and now you are offered a lettuce sallad, or money back ... and that offer is time limited, if you dont make your pick in time, it will be done for you and it will be Lettuce Sallad ...
... but you demand your steak, that you ordered by someone entirely else, who is no longer even here ... and the clock is ticking. ;)

Well ... what can i say except good luck. :D

Small arms are no obstacle for a vampire.
Little? Yes.
None? Nope.

Especialy in video game ... everything is harmfull for a player, since otherwise ... what would be its purpose? :D
Do you really think any developer would waste time programing something that would quite litterally do nothing at all? :D

Hunters, however, as far as I know, use weapons with special consecrated ammunition.
Some of them probably do ...
I have my doubts that is universal rule.

The question is how much damage is caused by the weapon itself and how much by the unwavering true faith of the hunters.
That actually is a good question! o_O
Never thought about that.

AvP had a mechanics of cutting off limbs, and it's a game from 1999! The year is 2025, i.e. two and a half decades of software and game systems development.
Indeed ...
And multiple games since 2000 had character creation, same story ... still nothing here tho. :)
 
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To say "they forgot" was ironic.

I just think that since the version I bought included, apart from two expansions, I was supposed to get cool weapons and outfits, I expect exactly what I paid for. The fact that the dev has changed in the meantime doesn't interest me much. If necessary, let them paste the weapon mechanics from the previous version of the game. Or they will add this mechanic, available only to those who pre-ordered.

Usually, when I go to a car showroom to buy a Mazda, I expect a Mazda because I paid for it, and not someone delivers me a Fiat and says be glad you have a car at all.



I would consider the Schot Gun as a large-caliber weapon, especially with dum dum cartridges. Small arms are no obstacle for a vampire. After all, you can't shoot a dead body. Well, no matter how you look at it, a vampire is a corpse bearing the curse of Cain.

Hunters, however, as far as I know, use weapons with special consecrated ammunition. The question is how much damage is caused by the weapon itself and how much by the unwavering true faith of the hunters.



On the one hand, I understand the approach that a vampire's body is hard, but on the other hand, AvP had a mechanics of cutting off limbs, and it's a game from 1999! The year is 2025, i.e. two and a half decades of software and game systems development.
The HSL version of the game didn't have permanent weapons, either. lol

In the HSL version, you couldn't keep any weapons. You pick up weapons and each weapon has a limited number of uses. Once the weapon was used up, it automatically permanently broke and was discarded.

If you don't like what they're showing for Bloodlines 2, you can cancel your pre-order at any time.
 
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In the HSL version, you couldn't keep any weapons.
Either you are some internal tester or developer, who would by that statement just broke their NDA ... wich i doubt.

OR ... and lets be frank, that is much more probable.
You don't know that! ;)

You pick up weapons and each weapon has a limited number of uses. Once the weapon was used up, it automatically permanently broke and was discarded.
Indeed ...
We were told that they were planning to implement such mechanic.

Did they say anything about that being the only mechanic related to arms?
(Hint: They didnt.)

So ... anything beyond such statement is pure speculation. ;)
 
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Either you are some internal tester or developer, who would by that statement just broke their NDA ... wich i doubt.

OR ... and lets be frank, that is much more probable.
You don't know that! ;)


Indeed ...
We were told that they were planning to implement such mechanic.

Did they say anything about that being the only mechanic related to arms?
(Hint: They didnt.)

So ... anything beyond such statement is pure speculation. ;)
??? The weapon system from the HSL version was in their developer diaries. You do remember that the old version of the game had months and month and months of developer diaries, right?

"Guns exist but are treated as temporary opportunities; you grab them (perhaps even directly out of enemy hands thanks to your telekinesis powers) and use them until your ammo’s dried up"
 
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Wich is an understandable one ... but misstake nevertheless. :)

I mean, come on ... when did it work this way? :D
Even with Larian who were quite transparent with their game, the final product was quite different from all that was promised during EA. :)

This is how it should work. The fact that others cannot do something properly does not absolve TCR of the obligation to at least try to do better than others. Be more oriented to player feedback.

They have time, they have money, they know what the fans want because on this forum we are writing our little "wish list" from scratch. For me, the situation is perfect. Read, do what is written point by point. If two opposing concepts are written, put them to a vote. Simple job, no need to think.

If they need a storyteller, I can recommend myself for this job. I have experience and I want this game to be a dream come true, for everyone who liked Blodlines and its excellent predecessor, Vampire The Masquerade Redemption.

That is fair ...

But im affraid your (well, to be fair i should say ours) expectations are just as important for them. :)
I mean ... why should they care? :D

Maybe because we are their bosses. Or rather, their bosses' bosses. If they don't secretly print money, then as far as I know, we pay them, so they owe their employment to us.

What makes you think that is even possible ...
Or that they still have "previous version of the game" ? :)

Creating even just any equipment system is not difficult. They could give it in the form of an infinite backpack like in the 90's games. Then the game can be advertised as a nostalgic return to the roots. It will sell like gold.
The fans will be delighted and they will even earn money.
 
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You do remember that the old version of the game had months and month and months of developer diaries, right?
Yes ...
I just didnt remembered this particular sentence ... and for some reason i believed they did left backdoor opened.

As it seems, i was wrong ...
Well, it happens.

---
This is how it should work. The fact that others cannot do something properly does not absolve TCR of the obligation to at least try to do better than others.
In pripcipal ... i agree.

The problem here is, that "better" is subjective term ...
Maybe they do believe that they do better ... hells, looking at their diaries they most likely do. :D

You know what i mean right?
Disney also thought that the "Kenobi" will be better the way they did it ... it was not, certainly not better than book, that coverd the same time, with entirely different story.

Be more oriented to player feedback.
There are two major problems with this:

1) It may sound incredibly easy to "be oriented to feedback" ...
But problem is that players themselves often cant really agree on what they want. -_-

Just look around for someone sake. :D

2) Taking feedback under concideration is certainly good thing ...
But you still need to keep in mind what you want to do, since after all, there will be your name on it, not those fans.

They have time, they have money
Do they tho? :)

I mean ... lets remind one game, maybe you heared about it ... Vampire the Masquerade - Bloodlines
Yes, the first one.

Did you know that ActiVision blocked Troika from any work on that product several months before release?
They simply didnt want to give any more money for development, and so > development was manualy stopped, no matter state of game.

One would hope that such approach dont happen theese days, huh?
One would hope that such approach cant happen to game as eagerly awaited as Bloodlines 2, huh?

Well, lets put there another name, maybe you heared about it ... Cyberpunk 2077. ;)

Now, think again. ;)
they know what the fans want because on this forum we are writing our little "wish list"
Oh yes that we do indeed ...
A small problem of those "wish lists" is that at least half of them would require to scrap or mess up most of everything they did so far. :D

Listing features is fine, as long as you are still in planning phase ... not when you are supposed to release product in few months ... even worse if you allready were supposed to release product, several times in the past. :D

Its simply too late now.

Trust me on this, taking asumably stabile game and add core feature that changes everything ... that can seriously push your development even years to the future. :-/
Nobody is willing to take that risk just to please few big mouths on forum.

If they need a storyteller, I can recommend myself for this job.
Oh i believe many of us could ...
I even believe that many of us would be willing to do that for free, just to send our story to the world. :D

But i dont think they would believe they do need a storyteller.
They do have a story ... a bit controversial, even questionable maybe ... and certainly not fitting every taste, but there is none that would, to be fair ...
Most importantly tho, they have THEIR story ... story they wanted to make, story they wanted to tell ... and that is why they are working on it.

You see there is a rumor on the internet i believe i have shared it here before, but before i will repeat myself i just want to warn again ... it is just a rumor, i have no way to verifie it.

Anyway ... the word is, that Chineese Room had no intention to make Bloodlines, at all.
What they wanted to do, is Vampite the Masquerade game ... they had story in mind, and they wanted to make that story ...
And so they (as you usualy do) went to IP owner ... Paradox ... to negotiate usage of that IP ...
And the word is ... that Paradox have seen an oppourtunity there ... they had Bloodlines 2 shelved ... in state that was hardly more than a name with lots of baggage on it, certainly not even a proper concept ... and they knew that if they dont really do anything with it, they would need to announce cancelation and refund it to everyone ... refunding is no big deal, honestly since many (dont really know how many tho) people allready did that ... the problem here was cancelation, since when you almost release something, just to went silent, and cancel it afterwards, thats bad PR ... and no company need bad PR ...
And so they come to agreement ... Chineese Room can make their game, as long as they salvage from original project anything they can (or want to) ... and then they release that game as Bloodlines 2 ...
Word is that hope was that everyone will be happy.
> Chineese Room will get their VtM game ...
> Paradox will get rid of this shelved problem ...
> Gamers get the game they awaited ...

But once again, it is just a rumor.

From business perspective it was the right move imho.
The problem is, that some players (myself included) become much more attached to orignal concepts than they (both Paradox and Chineese Room) expected.
But after all, in wider picture, from business perspective ... individuals like me dont really matter.

Maybe because we are their bosses. Or rather, their bosses' bosses. If they don't secretly print money, then as far as I know, we pay them, so they owe their employment to us.
Oh, but we are not ...
We are their customers.

And you can Karen all the way you like, but the ugly truth is, that individual customers dont matter.

And to be pefectly honest, for big companies (and i would dare to say that Paradox is one of them) ... even all customers of one game dont really matter.
We are not as they say "puting food on their table" ... such concepts are long gone. :D

I hope i dont oversiplify this ... but putting it as simple as i dare ... food chain would look aproximately like this:
Investor > Publisher > Developer ... and somewhere completely aside is Customer

Sure, it is important for company that product will be selling ... its just ... lets say not so cruicial so they would need every project to sell flawlessly.
Bcs there are other projects in line ... projects that will draw atention, projects that seems like it will bring profits ... and that will drawn more investors. :)

That is why BioWare were willing to experiment with Veilguard ...
EA knew that there are other games that allways sells, like Fifa ...
This year however, they didnt sell as good as they used to ... and so the final result was not as good as they expected, so consequences happened ... the point is tho, that single game is not as relevat as it was for those big companies.

Its a rollercoaster ...
You make something bad > then you need to announce something awesome ...
That is why Bethesda keeps repeating "Elder scrolls 6" after that fiasco with Starfield :D ... that is why Blizzard is holding back Paladins for Diablo 4 ... that is why BioWare put their bets on Dragon Age, after Mass Effect: Andromeda ... that is why CDPR returned to Witcher, after Cyberpunk.
Bcs those names makes interest > draw investors > make money before they even start making them.
After that ...
Its either matter of fulfilling the hype and getting lots of extra money, wich makes investors happy > ergo make them invest even more ... and the wheel is spining.
Or matter of failing those expectations, and so matter of releasing new promises and luring new investors ... and the wheel is spining aswell.

The only thing that really and i mean REALLY can kill company today is that if they fail so miserably and so often that nobody would want to invest into them anymore ... kinda the situation Star Wars are in right now, when even when they actually do good things, nobody cares ...
And even in those cases, all that happens is that biger company come over, and buy them ... just to obtain all those IP that company owned, even if they never use them ever again. :D

So what if you loose few / dozens / hunderts / thousands / maybe even millions customers?
Nobody really cares, one flop means little today.

Creating even just any equipment system is not difficult.
Maybe ...

But even if it would ... you know what is even easier? Let modders do that. :)
Especialy since if it broke anything, it aint their problem to fix. :D
 
The animations look soooooo much better than they used to and the environments are vibing with what I'd expect from the Chinese Room. I am looking forward to finally hearing a bit more about the actual story content though (if that's what the next DD is about anyway).
 
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The animations look soooooo much better than they used to and the environments are vibing with what I'd expect from the Chinese Room. I am looking forward to finally hearing a bit more about the actual story content though (if that's what the next DD is about anyway).

In my opinion we have known the main beats of the story for couple years already, even if the details are obviously kept hidden. I made the same post in steam forums but I'll repeat here:

The plot sounds a lot like the classic Akira Kurosawa movie "Yojimbo" or its Hollywood version "Last man standing".

In these, there is a town that is plagued by two warring criminal gangs. Then this famous killer walks into town, and both of the gangs obviously get interested. They try to curry the favor of this outsider and try to make him win the war for them. Or if they can't get his co-operation, kill him. The outsider on the other hand, tries to play both sides for maximum profit.

In Bloodlines 2, there are more than two sides, but the principle sounds the same. All the parties want Phyre on their side. So you are someone everyone cares about, someone everything revolves around, but you are not 'at the top' per se (not until the end at least). You are a prime mover.

The devs even went as far as reference this when they compared Phyre to a "gunslinger that walks to town" in one of the early interview videos. The early dev diaries and the steam page talk about "A three-front siege on Seattle". This refers to the different sides at odds with each other. Now insert an elder who could tip the balance of the cold war and you got Bloodlines 2.

Of course the story is not only about that. There are still the mysteries to solve about your torpor, how your torpid corpse ended in Seattle, what are those magical markings, who is behind them, and what is their address so you can go schedule their appointment with the sun.

I think the different sides are going to be:

1.) Team Camarilla (obviously the prince, Ryong, sheriff baboon etc)
Ryong qm.jpg


2.) Team Lou Graham (Lou + probably Fletcher since he appears in early "pioneers" art with Lou. Fletcher also obviously represents tradition and 'the old money', same as Lou. Lou is not the prince anymore but her 'protege' Campbell is. I wonder what happened..)
pioneers.jpg

3.) Team obligatory anarchs because they always have to be there.
anarchy.jpg

4.) Perhaps the mysterious party behind Phyres mark? I wonder if the "unseen" faction from HSL version still exists..

Speculating about the plot could be its own thread but I couldnt help myself..

ps. I am absolutely in love with what TCR cooked up.
 
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The masquerade dev diary should be interesting to see how much effort they have put into consequences for player actions like just walking into a street and killing everyone in my LOS.

Melee attacks look rather janky and use little effects to mask the lack of contact with the opponent, so the tremere clan comes out on top by default of being the ranged class looking the most natural.

More worrying is that enemy's seem to stand around while phyre makes mince meat of there friends in every gif of basic attacks there's someone off to the side not engaging or seemingly unable to path to attack while phyres in an animation. even in the group photos enemy's seem rather clunky much like HSL's early combat in the jungle camp is it the same AI?

Combat difficulty I expect will simply be a case of making enemy's more bullet spongey with minimal opponent encounter variety and no additional mechanics much like veil guard which makes me wonder how practical using guns will be on higher difficulty settings since enemy's will soak more of the limited ammunition pool before we discard them.

I'm going to hedge my bets on my fears from the 2023 gameplay demo are correct and combat is an unavoidable requirement of playing this game with no real way to stealth by or avoid encounters talk our way out which underwhelming the combat looks is going to be a drag.
 
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The early dev diaries and the steam page talk about "A three-front siege on Seattle".
I thought this idea was scrapped aswell ...
Can you point me towards said diary?

ps. I am absolutely in love with what TCR cooked up.
Wich is?

I mean seriously ... i get that you are curious, but how can you be "in love" with story you cant possibly even know yet? o_O
 
I mean seriously ... i get that you are curious, but how can you be "in love" with story you cant possibly even know yet? o_O

Seriously, if you care, why don't you do some research yourself. Ugh.
 
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Just out of curiosity what would your requirements have been if you'd been able to make them?

I would have liked the ability to select a mellee and and ranged weapon (concealed). Everything else would have been picked if we had the ability to "prepare" for a mission and were going into an environment where being obviously armed wouldn,'t be an issue. Same goes for longer blades.

I like the realism that something like hit man provided, in the sense that you were operating in the real world and not a doom level. Something that wod benefits from.
 
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Yes ...
I just didnt remembered this particular sentence ... and for some reason i believed they did left backdoor opened.

As it seems, i was wrong ...
Well, it happens.

---

In pripcipal ... i agree.

The problem here is, that "better" is subjective term ...
Maybe they do believe that they do better ... hells, looking at their diaries they most likely do. :D

You know what i mean right?
Disney also thought that the "Kenobi" will be better the way they did it ... it was not, certainly not better than book, that coverd the same time, with entirely different story.


There are two major problems with this:

1) It may sound incredibly easy to "be oriented to feedback" ...
But problem is that players themselves often cant really agree on what they want. -_-

Just look around for someone sake. :D

2) Taking feedback under concideration is certainly good thing ...
But you still need to keep in mind what you want to do, since after all, there will be your name on it, not those fans.


Do they tho? :)

I mean ... lets remind one game, maybe you heared about it ... Vampire the Masquerade - Bloodlines
Yes, the first one.

Did you know that ActiVision blocked Troika from any work on that product several months before release?
They simply didnt want to give any more money for development, and so > development was manualy stopped, no matter state of game.

One would hope that such approach dont happen theese days, huh?
One would hope that such approach cant happen to game as eagerly awaited as Bloodlines 2, huh?

Well, lets put there another name, maybe you heared about it ... Cyberpunk 2077. ;)

Now, think again. ;)

Oh yes that we do indeed ...
A small problem of those "wish lists" is that at least half of them would require to scrap or mess up most of everything they did so far. :D

Listing features is fine, as long as you are still in planning phase ... not when you are supposed to release product in few months ... even worse if you allready were supposed to release product, several times in the past. :D

Its simply too late now.

Trust me on this, taking asumably stabile game and add core feature that changes everything ... that can seriously push your development even years to the future. :-/
Nobody is willing to take that risk just to please few big mouths on forum.


Oh i believe many of us could ...
I even believe that many of us would be willing to do that for free, just to send our story to the world. :D

But i dont think they would believe they do need a storyteller.
They do have a story ... a bit controversial, even questionable maybe ... and certainly not fitting every taste, but there is none that would, to be fair ...
Most importantly tho, they have THEIR story ... story they wanted to make, story they wanted to tell ... and that is why they are working on it.

You see there is a rumor on the internet i believe i have shared it here before, but before i will repeat myself i just want to warn again ... it is just a rumor, i have no way to verifie it.

Anyway ... the word is, that Chineese Room had no intention to make Bloodlines, at all.
What they wanted to do, is Vampite the Masquerade game ... they had story in mind, and they wanted to make that story ...
And so they (as you usualy do) went to IP owner ... Paradox ... to negotiate usage of that IP ...
And the word is ... that Paradox have seen an oppourtunity there ... they had Bloodlines 2 shelved ... in state that was hardly more than a name with lots of baggage on it, certainly not even a proper concept ... and they knew that if they dont really do anything with it, they would need to announce cancelation and refund it to everyone ... refunding is no big deal, honestly since many (dont really know how many tho) people allready did that ... the problem here was cancelation, since when you almost release something, just to went silent, and cancel it afterwards, thats bad PR ... and no company need bad PR ...
And so they come to agreement ... Chineese Room can make their game, as long as they salvage from original project anything they can (or want to) ... and then they release that game as Bloodlines 2 ...
Word is that hope was that everyone will be happy.
> Chineese Room will get their VtM game ...
> Paradox will get rid of this shelved problem ...
> Gamers get the game they awaited ...

But once again, it is just a rumor.

From business perspective it was the right move imho.
The problem is, that some players (myself included) become much more attached to orignal concepts than they (both Paradox and Chineese Room) expected.
But after all, in wider picture, from business perspective ... individuals like me dont really matter.


Oh, but we are not ...
We are their customers.

And you can Karen all the way you like, but the ugly truth is, that individual customers dont matter.

And to be pefectly honest, for big companies (and i would dare to say that Paradox is one of them) ... even all customers of one game dont really matter.
We are not as they say "puting food on their table" ... such concepts are long gone. :D

I hope i dont oversiplify this ... but putting it as simple as i dare ... food chain would look aproximately like this:
Investor > Publisher > Developer ... and somewhere completely aside is Customer

Sure, it is important for company that product will be selling ... its just ... lets say not so cruicial so they would need every project to sell flawlessly.
Bcs there are other projects in line ... projects that will draw atention, projects that seems like it will bring profits ... and that will drawn more investors. :)

That is why BioWare were willing to experiment with Veilguard ...
EA knew that there are other games that allways sells, like Fifa ...
This year however, they didnt sell as good as they used to ... and so the final result was not as good as they expected, so consequences happened ... the point is tho, that single game is not as relevat as it was for those big companies.

Its a rollercoaster ...
You make something bad > then you need to announce something awesome ...
That is why Bethesda keeps repeating "Elder scrolls 6" after that fiasco with Starfield :D ... that is why Blizzard is holding back Paladins for Diablo 4 ... that is why BioWare put their bets on Dragon Age, after Mass Effect: Andromeda ... that is why CDPR returned to Witcher, after Cyberpunk.
Bcs those names makes interest > draw investors > make money before they even start making them.
After that ...
Its either matter of fulfilling the hype and getting lots of extra money, wich makes investors happy > ergo make them invest even more ... and the wheel is spining.
Or matter of failing those expectations, and so matter of releasing new promises and luring new investors ... and the wheel is spining aswell.

The only thing that really and i mean REALLY can kill company today is that if they fail so miserably and so often that nobody would want to invest into them anymore ... kinda the situation Star Wars are in right now, when even when they actually do good things, nobody cares ...
And even in those cases, all that happens is that biger company come over, and buy them ... just to obtain all those IP that company owned, even if they never use them ever again. :D

So what if you loose few / dozens / hunderts / thousands / maybe even millions customers?
Nobody really cares, one flop means little today.


Maybe ...

But even if it would ... you know what is even easier? Let modders do that. :)
Especialy since if it broke anything, it aint their problem to fix. :D
I can't comment on most of this, but Activision supported Troika for over a year beyond the initial scope/deadline of the project, gave them a huge advance because they were in a financial argument with Atari, provided several of their own staff to Troika and allowed them to cut the multiplayer mode without complaint and even funded a final round of bug fixing in the last two weeks before release. Activision did not sabotage bloodlines, they did more to try and save that game than could be expected. The only people who sabotaged bloodlines were Troika for going way out of scope/budget, and Valve, for agreeing to let them use source but then a year in refusing to talk to them anymore to help with engine issues or give them engine updates.

The "activision sabotaged Troika" myth is complete bullshit, coming from Jason Anderson, whilst other devs like Leonard Boyarsky were shocked by just how forgiving activision was. The three weeks of extra testing/fixing, repeatedly extending the deadline for the game to be finalised so they could move over to bug fixing, all this stuff isn't evidence of activision "sabotaging" anything.
 
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That is certainly interesting claim ...
Can you provide any support for that theory?
You didn't provide any support for your absurd claims, I'm just calling you out. Read any Leonard Boyarsky interview on the topic. At this point half a dozen people have gone over the development of bloodlines with a fine toothed comb. Most of those sources are summarized and cited on wikipedia's development section if you want to save yourself some time. The "Troika sabotaged bloodlines" narrative comes squarely from Jason Anderson and to a lesser extent Tim Cain, who basically thought they should have unlimited time and budget and didn't care how many deadlines they missed, traits that would go on to plague every game either ever worked on except maybe Outer Worlds. I love bloodlines 1, it is an amazing game, but the reason it is unfinished is not activision, and how anyone can see the consistent pattern of these people delivering unfinished games full of cut content and bugs and not realise no, they were the problem is beyond me.
 
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