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Developer Diary | Historical Germany

Guten Tag oder guten Abend depending on when you’re reading this!

Me, Paradox_Danne, and ManoDeZombi will guide you through the big boi; the myth, the legend, the one and only - the German Focus Tree. Yes, you read that right (and probably expected as much), Germany is getting a (much-needed) facelift. But what does this mean? It means that most of the old base Focus Tree is getting yeeted out, and replaced with a reworked version - no matter if you have Götterdammerung or not. So everything you’ll see in this Diary comes with the free patch. Now, before we go any further, please remember and keep in mind that this is very much a WORK IN PROGRESS, which means, but is not limited to, missing icons, placeholder texts, and weird modifiers. Things might and will change, so feedback is very much appreciated so we can make the best possible German content possible. We know you’re eager to delve into this, so let’s get moving!

Quick Historical Recap
I think we all know this part of history pretty well, but let’s quickly recap where Germany was at the beginning of 1936 and what it's gone through. After the defeat in the Great War, harsh stipulations were put on Germany, with the Treaty of Versailles causing resentment and economic hardship. Hyperinflation and political instability defined the early 1920s, and the Great Depression in 1929 led to rising support for extremists like the Nazis. By 1936, Hitler had become the absolute ruler of Germany and started to rearm, breaking the Treaty of Versailles.

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The country select screen for Germany, a TLDR for the historical context

What’s that? New National Spirits and Focuses?! Oh, we’ll get to the new Focuses - either in this Dev Diary or an upcoming one, don’t you worry ;) But let’s start with the political situation in Germany in 1936:

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The Political Situation for Germany in 1936

As you can see, the Führer himself got a facelift as well. But what might be more interesting are the new National Spirits:

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The National Spirits in 1936 for Germany

Out of all of these, the reworked MEFO Bills might be the most interesting one, but it’s also the one we won’t be discussing today; that’s for another day and another Dev Diary about German Systems, so stay tuned. What I will say is that Germany was nowhere near ready for WW2 when they invaded Poland, and we kind of want this to be better represented. You now have to build up your strength, and this means that Germany is receiving quite the nerf without actually getting that many negative modifiers. Other than that, what might jump out is the new military Spirits, which have been split into three separate entities; Heer, Luftwaffe, and Kriegsmarine. They all have different maluses, representing difficulties they battled with.

Germany initially saw great success with their Bewegungskrieg doctrine (popularized as Blitzkrieg) when they invaded Poland and France and subjugated both nations in lightning-fast campaigns. But as they tried the same tactics yet again against the Soviets, the vastness of Russia soon put a strain on German logistics they never really overcame. The German High Command had misjudged the sheer size of the Eastern steps, and the resistance they would face.

The Kriegsmarine never saw a truly major, direct engagement with the Royal Navy - but when they did fight, the Germans mostly lost. The Battle of the Atlantic saw initial German success, but they suffered heavy losses. They lost most of their heavy-hitting ships, such as Bismarck, Tripitz, Admiral Graf Spee, and Scharnhorst in various engagements.

The Luftwaffe was very effective and devastating early on, especially in its campaigns against Poland and France, and enjoyed technical superiority as the war broke up. But underneath it suffered from internal strife and poor leadership (looking at you Göring) among other things. It took heavy losses during the Battle for Britain, and never truly recovered.

So that’s Germany at the outset of 1936. But can you improve these National Spirits, I hear you wonder. And how do you do that? Can you change your fate? Must Germany face defeat in the skies over Britain, or among the ruins of Stalingrad? I suppose you want to see the new, reworked Focus Tree, don’t you? Can’t blame you; I’ve been eager to show it off for quite some time now! So without further ado:

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The Reworked Historical German Focus Tree

Yes, it’s chunky - and this is only the Historical and Common branches. It’s big, but it has a ton of 35-day focuses. And if you look closely you’ll see something completely new, something never before seen in HoI4

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The Inner Circle

This is yet another new system for Germany and something we sadly won’t discuss today either, but sit tight; it’s coming up in a future Dev Diary with the MEFO Bills.

The Common Branches

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The Military and Industrial Branches

Something that definitely can be said about every part of the new Focus Tree compared to the old one is that it’s bigger - you won’t be starving for things to do. And that is kind of the point; you will have to prioritize; what is absolutely necessary to have achieved before going on a world-conquering rampage to war? Germany wasn’t ready when they faced Poland and France. They more or less got lucky in France and Poland. Don’t get me wrong, they achieved some stunning victories and shocked the world with how fast they conquered Europe, but in the end, they were ill-prepared to wage a drawn-out war, especially after invading the Soviet Union and facing off against the USA. But how can you avoid their missteps? What will see you knocking down the gates of the Kremlin or cruising past the Statue of Liberty in your battleships? We’ll soon find out, but first, we need to take a look at your starting commanders.

The Army

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Germany now starts with fewer Generals and Field Marshals, but more can be unlocked through various focuses, while others might get retired.

As the more astute of you may have noticed, certain generals and field marshals are missing. Where did they go, and can you get them back? Why yes, of course!

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The Army branch allows you to specialize your army with an emphasis on either tanks or infantry and artillery

It’s in the Army Branch you unlock several generals and promote others to field marshal. The important choice in this branch is how you want to shape your army; do you want to rely on new tech and tactics using tanks, or do you want to expand upon the lessons from the Great War? Both options will offer different bonuses from each other and will unlock different generals. But the different paths also unlock two different Decisions to help you out with invading neighbouring countries strolling past those tedious border checks - so you don’t have to declare what you got in your luggage. You will simply speed right through. Let’s take a look at what makes the different paths so different.

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Honouring The Prussian Legacy will steer your army toward infantry and artillery, rather than the historical focus on tanks.

I think the big question here is “What the Hell is Operational Planning?” That my friends, is how you speed past those pesky border checks by taking a decision that bolsters your military for a short while. This is of course meant to simulate Germany’s “blitzkrieg” during WW2, but is focused on a more traditional approach instead of tanks. (“Blitzkrieg” was never an official doctrine, but rather a term applied to Germany’s old and tested Bewegungskrieg tactics, which was all about maneuver warfare.) So what does this Operational Planning look like, how do you use it and what benefits does it have?

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Operational Planning will yield a State Modifier in a country you are at war with, giving you an edge in those states

A fully maxed-out Bewegungskrieg will look like this. Operational Planning is specifically designed to not make Germany too overpowered, while still giving some nice military bonuses and at the same time representing the lightning-fast invasion they are so famous for. The state modifiers will last 90 days, and the decision will be repeatable once a year to simulate the various offensives Germany launched throughout its Russian campaigns. Another cool thing you get from The Prussian Legacy path is this new Support Company, called Sturmtruppe.

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The Sturmtruppe Battalion is an elite force meant to help break through enemy lines and fortifications
But what happens if you want to go down the historical route and have your panzer divisions steamroll the enemy? Luckily, there’s an option for that too!

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But what happens if you want to go down the historical route and have your panzer divisions steamroll the enemy? Luckily, there’s an option for that too!

While the Blitzkrieg state modifiers might not last as long as the Bewegungskrieg one, they’re packing quite a punch nonetheless. And choosing to develop your panzer forces will unlock two familiar faces:

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Taking Adopt New Panzer Doctrine will unlock both Rommel and Guderian as generals and military advisors

To round this part off, let’s check out what a maxed-out Deutsches Heer looks like by completing the Army Branch and compare the bonuses from The Prussian Legacy and Adopt New Panzer Doctrine paths with each other:

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The left picture shows a fully developed Heer after completing the Adopt New Panzer Doctrine path, and the right picture shows a fully developed Heer after completing The Prussian Legacy


The Airforce
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The Luftwaffe branch

The important choice to make here, is how you want to specialize the Luftwaffe; will you go down the historical route and focus on dive bombers and CAS, or shift your doctrine towards tactical or strategic bombers?

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The different bomber doctrines will yield different bonuses

If you want to fix the issues that plague the Luftwaffe you have to Reorganize the Luftwaffe and Solve the Logistical Bottlenecks, but you can’t do that while Göring is in charge. Speaking of the Devil, he’s got a wholly unique trait to reflect the central position he held, not only in the Luftwaffe, but within the Nazi regime as a whole

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Herman Göring now has the trait of Reich Marshal, which will allow him to produce more aircraft

If you decide that you don’t need him, you’ll unlock Helmut Wilberg, who historically played a major role in developing German air warfare and combined arms tactics - but since he was of Jewish descent you can’t hire him with a Fascist Government (he was so crucial and competent though that Göring himself helped hide this fact). While the Luftwaffe can’t be improved a whole lot, you’ll gain a lot of bonuses toward Special Projects for Rockets and Jets, and a whole bunch of timed ideas, and by far the most Aces in any focus tree (ALL aces from WW2 with 100 or more victories are German, but only roughly 50% survived unscathed).

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A fully developed Luftwaffe could look like this


The Navy

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The Kriegsmarine Branch will give you hegemony over the seas - and under them

The Naval Branch works in a slightly different way than most other branches; there are no mutually exclusive choices here, but you will be forced to prioritize nevertheless. You cannot work on both the Plan Z and Trade interdiction paths at the same time; once you’ve started one of those paths, the other one gets locked, until you have completed The High Seas Fleet or Unrestricted Convoy Raiding respectively - and once you complete one of those focuses, the rest of that path gets locked. This got convoluted real quick. Let’s try with an example: Say you finish Trade Interdiction first; this will lock you out from even beginning the Plan Z focus. To unlock that focus, you will have to complete Unrestricted Convoy Raiding, but this will also lock you out from doing any more focus under Trade Interdiction. In the end though, you get a much stronger Kriegsmarine, and completing Seeherrschaft yields even further goodies

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A fully realized Kriegsmarine could look like this, together with Seeherrschaft


Wunderwaffen

Something I’ve only touched upon but haven’t delved any deeper into is the Special Projects bonuses that Germany can get, which is a central theme and mechanic of this expansion. Germany famously tried to turn the tides of the war by putting their hope in these “miracle” weapons, but their doom was already sealed. But what if they put more effort into this earlier? Well, you can do that now, and the results come with one of the coolest icons in the game

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Wreak havoc upon the world with your glorious wunderwaffen


Industry

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The choice of Industrial path will have big ramifications on how you play as Germany

Hellbent on becoming self-sufficient, Hitler launched the 4-Year Plan in 1936. The goal was to strengthen the industries so he could carry out an ambitious and rapid rearmament program. Going down this path will make you stronger in the short term, but will leave you open to other problems caused by the MEFO Bills (which, you will remember, we won’t talk in-depth about in this Dev Diary). Suffice to say, the Four Year Plan will put a strain on your economy, but you’ll be ready for war sooner. This strain will be somewhat offset by, not one, but two unique laws for Germany and this path; Autarky and Totaler Krieg. Both new laws come with a price though; it will either remove another law or lock others from being accessible.

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Autarky Efforts will unlock the new Trade Law of Autarky, but locks other laws in turn

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The second unique law is the Economic Law of Totaler Krieg

This particular path is closely tied with the MEFO Bills, which we will talk more about in a later Dev Diary, and the impact it has on your economy. For now, though, let’s look at the non-historical Industrial path, which starts with Prioritize Economic Growth.

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Prioritize Economic Growth will absolutely gut your economy, but you can rebuild it stronger than ever

This path will ruin your economy, but fear not, because down the line you can rebuild it, stronger than ever. In pure numbers, you’ll get more factories from this path, but they take longer to come by. You even get more building slots, leaving room for even more factories. The trade-off is that the focuses take longer to complete and are locked behind tech and stuff. You might also notice that this focus unlocks a new advisor, Ludwig Erhard. This was the man behind the “German Economic Miracle”, or Wirtschaftswunder, after WW2 which this path is loosely based on.

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After having paid off the MEFO Bills you’ll have a Recovering Economy with plenty of penalties but that can flourish into the Wirtschaftswunder

And just for funsies, let’s compare a fully developed Wirtschadftswunder with the evolved version of the MEFO Bills, namely the Economy of Conquest (mainly because I wanted to leave you all with a cliffhanger; whatever could Economy of Conquest be?)

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Wirtschaftswunder vs Economy of Conquest and Wehrwirtschaft

And now, onward to the really juicy bits - the political branch!

Political Branches

This part of the focus tree was mostly designed by the one and only ManoDeZombi , but he’s frantically doing other stuff, so I’ll walk you through the political branch. As you already have seen we have expanded the historical path for Germany quite a bit and changed existing focuses. We have built the new Focus Tree around the core of the old so that some things will be familiar.

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The Political Branch is structured so that Far Eastern foreign policies are to the far right, European policies are in the middle, while Internal politics are to the left.

The beginning of the political branch starts as before, with Remilitarize the Rhineland, whereafter you can decide where you want to take the Reich; perhaps focusing on re-establishing the old German colonies throughout Asia and Africa, to eventually invading the USA from the West, or influence the Middle East and secure beneficial trade deals for those countries, or tie the Baltic states and Scandinavia closer to you. There are plenty of possibilities here! But before we travel to the Far East and see what you can do there, let’s take a minute and explain something you probably have seen throughout this Dev Diary and the focus tree and are wondering about - what the hell is this:

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Introducing Historical Frames

These are new icon frames meant to help players understand which focuses were historically taken - they act as a visual guide. Since this Focus Tree is pretty big (way bigger than the Soviet or Italian ones) we wanted to highlight and differentiate the historical path from alt-historical options. Oh, some of you don’t like these handy guides? Fret not, we got you covered!

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You can easily turn the Historical Frames guide on and off with the push of a button

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The Far Eastern path allows you to reclaim old colonies and align more closely with either China or Japan and decide how you want to handle the Soviets and/or the USA.

This path is all about cooperation and negotiation to get your old Asian colonies back, and getting claims on your old African possessions. Ultimately, you’ll have to decide if you want to approach the Chinese in order to take down the Japanese, or if you’d rather strengthen your ties with Japan for a more advanced navy and go after the USA. A little bit to the left, and West as it were geographically, you’ll find focuses concerning the Soviet Union. These largely remain the same as in the old Focus Tree, except that the unholy Berlin-Moscow Axis you get through Alliance with the USSR only lasts two years now; an alliance between these countries would never have lasted anyway. So you’ll have your cake and eat it too in the sense that you can turn your attention to the Western front without worrying about the East, but also rolling your panzers across the wide-open Russian steppe and knocking on the gates to Moscow. It’ll just have to wait a little while longer ;)

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An alliance of convenience with the Soviets will make you both stronger when eventually facing off

Now, let’s turn our gaze towards Europe - the bread and butter of the Historical branch. As we already stated, we built this part around the old focus tree, just adding bits and pieces here and there. You might notice that there’s now a focus for Operation Sealion and an entire mini sub-branch for tackling the Americas. There are also alternative focuses for using diplomacy to sway countries to your side, instead of having your panzers run over everyone - if you like that kind of thing. Me, I prefer my enemies as flat as possible ;)

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Do you want to conquer all of Europe by force or would you rather use diplomacy to get your way? Some conquering may be required

You’ll notice that before you can do Anschluss and use Austria as an appetizer, you have a choice to make; are you siding with Ribbentrop to Reorganize the Wehrmacht or will you Heed von Neurath’s Concerns? The first option will lead to the infamous Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and a non-aggression pact with the USSR, and the dismissal of several of your generals. The reorganization of the Wehrmacht was a very important event in Germany in 1938 just before the outbreak of war and is how Hitler assumed direct control of the armed forces as Supreme Commander. The second option will instead have you listen to the concerns of von Neurath and the Wehrmacht, which will prepare you for the wars to come. The downside is of course that you won’t have that non-aggression pact with the Soviets…. Oh well, it can’t be that important.

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Do you Reorganize the Wehrmacht or do you Heed von Neurath’s Concerns?

Having made your choice you now face a revamped Anschluss, as alluded to by Nattmaran in the Austrian Dev Diary (go read it if you haven’t!). The requirements to start this focus have changed, and while the numbers might seem ludicrously high, you have to remember that Austria doesn’t have a big army to begin with, and is severely hampered to expand it. Basically, what you need is a bigger army than the Austrians, and it has to be well-equipped. Having gobbled up Austria, the world is your oyster! One final thing before we start looking into our new (and old) advisors and 3D models, we have one last mini branch to look at.

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To Bribe Senior Officers was a very real thing and part of the reason why so many generals remained loyal to Hitler

Some of you may be wondering why there haven’t been any mentions of a Balance of Power for Germany - and that’s because there is none. We just wanted to spell that out so no wild speculations are going on as to what it might entail. Something else we didn’t touch upon on this Diary was the Reichskommissariats, and that’s because they’ve been expanded upon and new features have been added to it. But that’s for another time and another Dev Diary - namely (you guessed it) for the German Systems.

Regarding the SS divisions, the system has been reworked a bit. SS Divisions are now unlocked by the focus Expand SS Divisions which will not only allow for the recruitment of foreign SS units, but it will right away spawn some historical German units. Infantry battalions within these divisions are now represented as Militias. These militias can also be significantly improved by Himmler within the Inner Circle system. And they also got a new model!

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The focus Expand SS Recruitment unlocks the recruitment of SS divisions.

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And these militias have gotten a new 3D model too!


Advisors, Designers and Concerns

Phew, we’re nearly done! Thanks for sticking around this long (and it’s been quite a long read) - we’re nearly done now. With all of the Focus Tree finally being discussed, let’s turn to internal affairs, specifically advisors of all kinds, designers, and industrial concerns - because there are quite a few to go through! Let’s start with the advisors you can hire (and those you can’t ). There are way more advisors to choose from now; some are locked behind ideologies and others behind focuses. Quite a few of these can be “upgraded” and plenty have unique traits now.

Advisors

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German political advisors

You might be wondering what happened to some of the more prominent historical figures, like Himmler, Goebbels, Speer, etc. Well, they are gone… from the political advisor roster, they now belong to the new Inner Circle system, we’ll go through it in detail in the German Systems Dev Diary in the near future.

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German military theorists

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German High Command

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German Army, Navy, and Air Chiefs


MIO's

MIOs (or rather Military Industrial Organizations) were added in the last major DLC Arms Against Tyranny where I was forced to expand the Danish Focus Tree beyond the two focuses they realistically should have had happily worked on Denmark and where ManoDeZombi made sure the Finns could stop the onslaught of the Soviet in… well, Finland. Anyways, Germany’s MIOs have also been expanded upon with unique traits and even organizations. Let’s do another blitz!

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German Tank MIOs

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German Ships MIOs

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German Planes MIOs

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German Material Equipment MIOs

And lastly, we have the Industrial Concerns, and guess what? There’s more of them too now!

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German Industrial Concerns

In terms of 3D models, and without getting into Special project content, Germany has gotten a few nice additions:

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You can now proudly deploy the old Leichttraktor

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Some infantry models, including colonial troops unlocked by the Far East and Africa -related focuses

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German soldiers are now way more comfortable under extreme weather thanks to the newest tactics developed by the Wehrmacht: rolling sleeves and furry hats!


Conclusion
And that’s more or less everything from us! Remember to look out for the next Dev Diary, which is all about Small Features. Among other things, this will dive into AI, Command Power and New Technologies. This will be airdropping on or near you October 21st.

Auf Wiedersehen!

(Note: We are also working on a video for Historical Germany; it will be added next week!)




 
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You missed the topic from beginning, I should have stopped instantly to answer you.

But getting trusted primary and secondary sources like wikipedia with dozens of samples: "No, you are all lying and the sources are wrong" Is next level.
Thanks for the talk, goodbye, this is a waste of time.
Prove it. I served 15 Years in the German Fedetal Armed Forces.

Deutsch ist meine Muttersprache. Und wenn ich in deuschen Geschichtsbüchern keine Quellen finde, dann glaube ich nicht, daß andere Quellen mehr hergeben.
(German is my native language.) And if I can't find any sources in German history books, I doubt that other sources provide more information.)

This is not a waste of time - show me your sources so I can learn. Unless you do not have any. I wait - and I am interested.
 
I am really interested in your sources - neither can I find them nor have I heard of those units.
You appear out of nowhere, telling us we are all wrong, without knowing the context. You provided 0 sources, while I gave you three official links with more than 20 sources combined that support our point. Yet, you simply said "no."

Sorry, but I have better things to do.
 
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To be honest... I have a grudge with anything that requires Decisions to be used regularly. It just makes you have to click even more than you want. It is kinda a cookie-clicker thing. I hope you don't expect people to use that stuff against the Soviets every 60/45 days because that would drive people nuts fast. ^^

So I cannot say that I will be a fan of the operational planning stuff. Even if it gives buffs for short durations.

Somehow wish that it either would rather be a static flat buff or somehow an automated system. Because I bet I will forget to click the decision most of the time.



[edit]

And I am kinda looking forward to how the MEFO thing will turn out because to me it looks like a slap in the face.

Either you take the bitter pill with crippling your economy immediately using the alternative economy path which effects you might feel way too late in the campaign (I did enough math for the current version Germany to know that tons of civil economic buildup never really pays off because by the time it would you are already sitting in the Kreml and who would even stand up against you by then.)...

... or if historic path you will probably be pressed on a timer to have done certain things by a certain date or otherwise the MEFO bills will eat you alive.

I cannot say yet what will be worse, but it feels like both are not so nice. But then again I have not put my fingers on the new systems yet.
 
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I am really interested in your sources - neither can I find them nor have I heard of those units.
You appear out of nowhere, telling us we are all wrong, without knowing the context. You provided 0 sources, while I gave you three official links with more than 20 sources combined that support our point. Yet, you simply said "no."

That you served is interesting, especially when you didn’t even know that the word "Strumtruppe" is still up to today..

This will be my last post, I am pretty sure other people will play with you but I have better things to do.
 
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You appear out of nowhere, telling us we are all wrong, without knowing the context. You provided 0 sources, while I gave you three official links with more than 20 sources combined that support our point. Yet, you simply said "no."

That you served is interesting, especially when you didn’t even know that the word "Strumtruppe" is still up to today..

This will be my last post, I am pretty sure other people will play with you but I have better things to do.
It's Sturmtruppe - not Strumtruppe. I know what you mean though. ;)
 
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I just saw- I stand corrected. I do assume though that this was a single brigade and not the norm.
Or are there more.

And if I came across harshly, I apologize.

If you camouflage your quotes like that - of course I can't see them. ;)
Like I said, you do not even know the context. It's a waste of time. We talked about brigades. Battalions and divisions and the main point was, that the idea is still there and actually used till today, and they continued to use the Idea in WW2 just under different units and categories and If you had read the posts, and not just randomly answering dozens of people, you would know this, but it's fine, Mr. "I do not accept Wikipedia and military lexicons as sources." and Mr "I do not know about the Sturmtruppe but I served..."

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I accept your apology, next time just read the context before answering.
 
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When is Ost Belgine / Eupen-Malmedy gonna become a state? It pains every history nerd to play germany especially kaiser path knowing well they will never be able to restore germany's original border, and modding it in is just a pain
 
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Like I said, you do not even know the context. It's a waste of time. We talked about brigades. Battalions and divisions and the main point was, that the idea is still there and actually used till today, and they continued to use the Idea in WW2 just under different units and categories and If you had read the posts, and not just randomly answering dozens of people, you would know this, but it's fine, Mr. "I do not accept Wikipedia and military lexicons as sources." and Mr "I do not know about the Sturmtruppe but I served..."

Edit:
I accept your apology, next time just read the context before answering.
A book that you might be interested in:

Ernst Jünger - In Stahlgewittern (In steel thunderstorms) - ISBN 3-608-95208-X
One chapter is exclusively on stormtroop training in the French Champagne region
 
Sad that you didn't implement balance of power to keep it simple for beginners. It feels like a mechanic you could implement in a non-integral way, where the BoP can be impactful to those who use it, but those who don't want to interact with it don't have to and won't be much impacted by the BoP. Like eu4 estates, you can completely avoid them and do just fine, but those with more skill and who want more depth can interact with them.
 
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"Nationalist, racist and imperialist" are not mutually exclusive with 'socialist'. If you look into the ideologies of the period or even before, Marxist socialism is not the only brand there was.
The NSDAP had policies, both early on and later, that appealed both to corporations/ wealthy as well as the lower classes. The regime was pragmatic in terms of economic policy- whatever the Leader thought was most beneficial to the nation at a given time. Ideologically though, Nazism definitely had more of a socialist bent, though most of the more radical elements were purged.
Authoritarian control is not mutually exclusive with socialism..... look at every single socialist country that has ever existed.
The idea that “nationalist, racist, and imperialist” ideologies are not mutually exclusive with socialism is correct in a broad sense. It’s true that socialism, especially in its Marxist form, isn’t the only variant. However, it’s important to clarify that in Nazi Germany, these ideologies weren’t combined in a traditional socialist sense. The “socialist” aspect in National Socialism was largely superficial, aimed at appealing to the working class while maintaining strong ties with industrial elites and capitalist interests. The argument that the NSDAP had policies appealing to both corporations and the lower classes is true. In practice, though, the party’s policies ultimately favored corporations and the wealthy, with economic pragmatism often overriding any commitment to real socialist principles. This reflects the broader point that Nazi economic policies were not ideologically driven by socialism but rather by what the leadership believed would strengthen the state. On the point about authoritarianism and socialism not being mutually exclusive, this is true in the sense that many socialist states have had authoritarian governments (the Soviet Union, PRC). However, the authoritarianism in Nazi Germany wasn’t in service of a socialist agenda but rather an ultranationalist, racist, and imperialist one. The NSDAP’s use of socialist rhetoric was more a tactic to gain broad support than a genuine commitment to socialist principles.
 
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Not to start a political discussion here, but for a start, the SU was also somewhat nationalistic, definetly imperialistic and if we are honest, and judging by what my parents experienced, the economic policies of the countries in the Warsaw pact did not benefit the working class to as large a degree as its modern day defenders would like.
Nationalism, racism and imperialism are largely not economic policies and in theory do not prevent a country from implementing a socialist economy in the meantime. I can't understand while you fail to realize that.

Yes, Hitler obviously wasn't a marxist or some form of an orthodox communist but, of course as long as you were ethnically German and not part of some of the groups put in concentration camps, his economic policies and ponzi schemes did create jobs, reduce unemployment etc. Were these mostly superficial improvements? Maybe, but similarly as there were some parties more socialist in their economic policies than Hitler, so were there lots of parties far more economically liberal than Hitler. And many supposed improvements of working conditions in countries you'd probably enthusiastically call socialist were similarly superficial as well.

Also the support of wealthy individuals is hardly an indicator of how economically alligned a party is. Sure, again, he wasn't marxist, however the presupposition that all large-scale industrial conglomerates and wealthy oligarchs are hard-bent on always fighting for a maximally liberal and unrestricted economy is also wrong. Some of them supported him because of their belief in his plans providing them personal benefit. This says little about his intentions outside of that and it did not prevent many of these companies being essentially run by the German state or closely tied to its economic plans, while still retaining their private ownership on paper. Hitler basically dictating these companies on how to function is hardly him alligning with capitalist interests the way you presented it.

What i am saying is, the constant "akchyually he named the party socialist to lure low-iq voters to vote for him by fooling them with the name" meme is getting stale.

It is too simplistic and reeks of breadtube. The NSDAP was more socialist in its earlier days, however this still does not mean the name "socialist" in NSDAP was nothing more than a deception and marketing-ploy. I am sure he'd have a different interpretation of what socialism means in this context than members of the modern day SPD for example, however in the end it is worth to remember that even evil people like Hitler or the more socialist people in his party, sometimes, i know shocking, believed what they said. And there certainly was a will to help the German worker (whatever this entailed) and ideologically fight certain aspects of capitalism, which they surely deemed jewish anyway.
I agree with your point about the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact countries, where nationalistic and imperialistic tendencies were present, even though the official ideology was internationalist. In practice, the SU enforced its dominance over Eastern Europe, and the economic policies often failed to benefit the working class as intended. The experiences of people in those regimes, like your parents, highlight the disparity between the idealistic goals of socialism and the reality of corruption, inefficiency, and authoritarianism. Regarding your argument that nationalism, racism, and imperialism are not economic policies and could coexist with a socialist economy, I understand the point. In theory, a nation could implement socialist economic policies while maintaining a nationalist or imperialist ideology. However, in practice, these ideologies tend to shift the focus away from class struggle, which is central to socialism, toward unifying a nation or race at the expense of others. In the case of Nazi Germany, the regime’s racist and nationalist policies led to social hierarchies that were fundamentally opposed to socialist principles of class equality. On the topic of Hitler’s economic policies, it’s true that his regime initially reduced unemployment, created jobs, and stimulated the economy, particularly through public works and rearmament. These policies did benefit workers to some extent, but they were more about preparing for war and strengthening the state than about genuinely empowering the working class. The improvements were often superficial, and this has parallels with other regimes that claimed to be socialist but failed to achieve meaningful benefits for workers. You raise a good point about the support from wealthy individuals and corporations. It’s correct that their support doesn’t necessarily mean Hitler’s regime was aligned with free-market liberalism. Many capitalists supported him for their own benefit, believing that his policies would protect or enhance their interests. However, the fact that private ownership was maintained, even under state control, suggests that the regime was more aligned with capitalist structures than socialist ones. Hitler’s control over these companies was driven by nationalist and militaristic goals, not by a desire to eliminate private property or empower workers as socialism traditionally aims to do. Finally, I agree that it’s too simplistic to reduce the Nazi use of “socialist” in their name to a mere marketing ploy. There were genuinely socialist-leaning elements within the party, especially in its early years, and Hitler’s interpretation of socialism was certainly different from that of Marxists or modern socialists. However, the regime’s policies, while sometimes couched in socialist rhetoric, did not truly challenge capitalist systems or create genuine worker empowerment. Instead, the focus was on national unity and militarization, not on class struggle or social equality.
 
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Just because they had the word "Socialism" in their ideology doesn't mean they're socialist. They used National Socialism because Socialist parties and Nationalist parties where both very popular in interwar Germany, so they just combined the two names even tho they were definitely right wing nationalist.

And that is not correct. We all say they was right but it was alsways like that. Roy Casagranda Maybe we have this days a other definition of right. Even in imperial times the enemy was for some already on the right. But back to national socialism:

At the beginning they even went on strike with the KPD (comunist party) her later archenemy at factories in Berlin. 1932 Hitler's NCO: "The enemy is on the right, our flag is red and we are socialists." "The enemy is on the right", The call of the Hitler Youth” 06.15.1934: "If people used to say that the enemy is on the left, today the German youth is calling out to the people that the enemy is on the right. That section of reactionaries is still very large today, which includes all the grumpies and complainers who come from the German bourgeoisie.” Nevs archiv 15 days later the SA was killed. The SA stood more for national communism. That's why she had to leave. It changed slowly as they later coalation with the "right" DNVP. Hitler can't integrate the DNVP in the NSDAP and work with big capital as long there are other people in his ranks who dream of national communism and want to expropriate people. How was the quote from CK II ... But everyone loves gold. When i know this i understand the quote from one of the nurenburg movies who Göhring has says, it was better we has kill the right side also. I didn't understand it at the time and was confused. Why would it have been better to kill your own people?

The German National People’s Party (Deutsch-Nationale Volkspartei – DNVP), representing the conservative monarchist camp, campaigned against the democratic system and the international order established by the Treaty of Versailles. The DNVP defended the economic and social interests of the large landowners in the area to the east of the River Elbe as well as the interests of the industrial magnates. After initially engaging in limited cooperation, the party became more radical under the chair-manship of Alfred Hugenberg, who cultivated its anti-republican and anti-Semitic tendencies and, through cooperation with the NSDAP in the Harzburg Front, made Hitler acceptable to the bourgeois Right. The coalition government of the DNVP and NSDAP that took office in January 1933 under the chancellorship of Adolf Hitler marked the end of multi-party democracy and the beginning of National Socialist tyranny.
 
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I agree with your point about the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact countries, where nationalistic and imperialistic tendencies were present, even though the official ideology was internationalist. In practice, the SU enforced its dominance over Eastern Europe, and the economic policies often failed to benefit the working class as intended. The experiences of people in those regimes, like your parents, highlight the disparity between the idealistic goals of socialism and the reality of corruption, inefficiency, and authoritarianism. Regarding your argument that nationalism, racism, and imperialism are not economic policies and could coexist with a socialist economy, I understand the point. In theory, a nation could implement socialist economic policies while maintaining a nationalist or imperialist ideology. However, in practice, these ideologies tend to shift the focus away from class struggle, which is central to socialism, toward unifying a nation or race at the expense of others. In the case of Nazi Germany, the regime’s racist and nationalist policies led to social hierarchies that were fundamentally opposed to socialist principles of class equality. On the topic of Hitler’s economic policies, it’s true that his regime initially reduced unemployment, created jobs, and stimulated the economy, particularly through public works and rearmament. These policies did benefit workers to some extent, but they were more about preparing for war and strengthening the state than about genuinely empowering the working class. The improvements were often superficial, and this has parallels with other regimes that claimed to be socialist but failed to achieve meaningful benefits for workers. You raise a good point about the support from wealthy individuals and corporations. It’s correct that their support doesn’t necessarily mean Hitler’s regime was aligned with free-market liberalism. Many capitalists supported him for their own benefit, believing that his policies would protect or enhance their interests. However, the fact that private ownership was maintained, even under state control, suggests that the regime was more aligned with capitalist structures than socialist ones. Hitler’s control over these companies was driven by nationalist and militaristic goals, not by a desire to eliminate private property or empower workers as socialism traditionally aims to do. Finally, I agree that it’s too simplistic to reduce the Nazi use of “socialist” in their name to a mere marketing ploy. There were genuinely socialist-leaning elements within the party, especially in its early years, and Hitler’s interpretation of socialism was certainly different from that of Marxists or modern socialists. However, the regime’s policies, while sometimes couched in socialist rhetoric, did not truly challenge capitalist systems or create genuine worker empowerment. Instead, the focus was on national unity and militarization, not on class struggle or social equality.

I would delve further into that as we agree on some things but i still disagree on others you wrote, however from experience this isn't the place to discuss these topics and usually ends with a janitor ;) mod closing such a thread.

Let's leave it at that.
 
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"Nationalist, racist and imperialist" are not mutually exclusive with 'socialist'. If you look into the ideologies of the period or even before, Marxist socialism is not the only brand there was.
The NSDAP had policies, both early on and later, that appealed both to corporations/ wealthy as well as the lower classes. The regime was pragmatic in terms of economic policy- whatever the Leader thought was most beneficial to the nation at a given time. Ideologically though, Nazism definitely had more of a socialist bent, though most of the more radical elements were purged.
Authoritarian control is not mutually exclusive with socialism..... look at every single socialist country that has ever existed.
You are right and if you think about it, socialism always implies authoritarianism.
Socialism basically says the needs of the collective are more important than the needs of the individual. How do you ensure the individual has to do what the collective needs and not what the individual wants? Every socialist state used force in the end because many people stick to their own hopes and dreams quite stubbornly.
Never understood why anyone would choose to live that way.
 
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We're not here to discuss politics unrelated to the game. Let's stay on topic please.
Thanks :)
Also small silly little question, could we hope to have Walther Wenck as a general? :)
Thanks in advance :)
 
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Thanks :)
Also small silly little question, could we hope to have Walther Wenck as a general? :)
Thanks in advance :)
I think we really need Eduard Dietl with Mountain and Winter traits. He commanded the 20th Mountain Army that fought in the Arctic, Norway and Northern Finland.
 
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