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EU4 - Development Diary - 10th March 2016

Hello everyone, and welcome to another development diary for Europa Univeralis IV. Today, we focus on many of the core aspects of Mare Nostrum, our next expansion.

First, we have completely changed how naval missions work, introducing a unified system that includes settings for when your ships should return to port for repairs and how aggressive the fleets should be.

Naval Missions are selected from the new mission interface, and each mission targets either a sea/coastal region or a trade node. The old missions to Protect Trade, privateer, Hunt Pirates and Explore are available (depending on which expansions you currently own), just as before, but Mare Nostrum adds three new naval missions.
  • Hunt Enemy Fleets - Your ships will automatically try to hunt down weaker enemy fleets in the region to sink them.
  • Blockade Enemy Ports - This divides your fleet, and attempts to blockade as many ports as possible in the region.
  • Intercept Transports - Your ships will protect coastlines in region and prioritize attacks on any transport fleet.
1ToyfDJ.jpg


The Detach Damaged feature for Ships has gotten a huge boost in Mare Nostrum. Now, ships that are detached from a fleet will a automatically rejoin their original fleet when they have been repaired.

In 1.16, naval leaders will also get siege pips. Each of those pips will increase blockade efficiency by 10%. If you have Mare Nostrum, you’ll now also able to reassign naval leaders while fleets are at sea, as long as they are within supply range.

Some people have complained about how blockades are not really visible. Now there is also a thick red line on the coastlines where you are blockaded, and a purple one is shown where you blockade.
cLuCFtl.jpg


Naval Combat has gotten a complete overhaul as well. First of all, we removed the positioning mechanic, as it was not terribly useful, and players couldn’t really affect it anyway.

Now, there is a restriction in how many ships can fire at a single time in a naval combat. 20 ships is the baseline, 10% more ships can fire in coastline, and there is a variation of 10% more or less based on the differences between the maneuver ability of each fleet’s commander..

Also, Morale Damage is inflicted on all ships still floating whenever a ship is sunk, with up to 2% damage.

A ship being sunk has a chance of being captured instead of sunk, which depends on the enemy commanders maneuver value. If a fleet retreats, all its captured ships are immediately scuttled.

Stay tuned, because next week, we’ll tell you all about condottieri !
 
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For god´s sake, why do we have to pay for Things wich should be included in EU4 it self? This are elemantary Things for this game so why do we have to pay 14 euros for such Things?
Literally any distribution of content between the paid and free patch except "everything in the free patch" will result in someone saying this.

As such, Paradox have to make a reasoned decision about what they think the distribution should be.
 
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For god´s sake, why do we have to pay for Things wich should be included in EU4 it self? This are elemantary Things for this game so why do we have to pay 14 euros for such Things?

It's kind of the way human civilization works. People provide goods or services in exchange for payment in the form of cash or other goods and services. It's one of the primary things that separates us from animals. Surely you didn't expect a $50 purchase of a game to provide you infinite (aka slave) labor from PDS did you? :)

You're free to judge it's worth and make a decision on whether you'll buy it just as PDS is free to decide what their asking price is.
 
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Lol, sorry I just naturally assumed it with your participation and your avatar.
If he was swedish he would already have been pissed at buffing Denmark ;-) though I actually want Sweden to be buffed a bit more at the same time... But will see how the map changes help with this anyway :)
 
A thing I would see addressed in this DLC is the comparison between galley and big ships (carracks than galleon).
In the XV-XVI century galleys/war_galleys were much more effective as war ship than carracks (early carracks and carracks in eu4 terms) because:

- the number of guns reported (20, 25 in the first two model) were seldom reached (carracks mainly were commercial ships, rearranged for war, except a very little number of "royal ship")
- carracks were of poor handling, effective just at stern wind or at least with beam reach. (sorry for using naval terms, it is wind from behind or at least sideway). Galleys used rows for battle purpose, so they could manoeuvre with any wind (this should be addressed perhaps in further lowering guns or less hull some other ways )

So for pure warfare galley/war_galley should be better or at least equal than early-carrack/carracks.

The drawbacks of galley is the near impossibility to sail for long time in open sea: too little holding for staying weeks without supply, too low side to bear a gale.
In game they should take an hell of attrition just for staying in open water (not just closed sea like Mediterranean waters).

This also will drive to a less automatic choice of building just big ships (that now brings much more power with less forcelimit)

YES

As I have seen some other proposal I will put mine here as well.
1. Replace 20 ships cap by "combat width" = "manoeuvrability lag" cap (say 20 in inland seas and say 25/30 in ocean ?).
2. Early heavies would get penalty to their width (increased, starting with e.g. 3) which would decrease with technology.
3. Galleys would start with no penalty in inland seas (width 1). Maybe galleys would get penalty in open seas.
4. Light ships could start with penalty as well, to represent that at the beginning it were galleys which were naval combat ships and lights and heavies were mostly converted merchantmen or merchantmen doubling as warships.
 
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somehow I think a new 'conversations that must have happened in EU4' post is due..

"Admiral! Our armada is into position to attack the vile English DRAKE!"

*spanish armada consisting of hundreds of ships sails in to English channel*

"Drake is attacking us in this narrow strait? Is he mad?"

*25 english war galleons trash 20 Spanish Galleons cause Drake has more manoeuvring pips*

"Who cares! We still got 150 more! Send in the rest!"

*rest fled due to low morale, seeing their ships being sunk by the EVIL DRAKE. English win, outnumbered x to 1*

"WHAAAA?"

not even talking about HOW you basically remove ANY use for Galleys in inland seas now. I mean SERIOUSLY? You can only attack with 20 gallyes veruss 20 heavies in and inland sea? What have you been smoking :)

and.. who gives a **** about naval warfare, you nerfed the heck out of purpose of using fleets in last patches..

glad you ATLEAST *focus* on the FEW people that COMPLAIN in MULTIPLAYER about HOW unvisible naval blockades are... Yeah, that really deserves all your attention.

and I'll definatly roll for siege admirals, and replace all my precious slots with siege admirals, cause land generals are useless...

*cynism off for now*

i could do suggestions, but ...

(really shouldn't post in dev diaries)
 
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This is a thin one. I am happy to see the current combat changed, but I will reserve judgement till I try that. The rest are basic AI convenience. Nice to have automation if it works as you want it to, but I see a lot more dead ships from some of those features particularly: Carpet blockade will cause some unfortunate losses for players as an enemy navy is build and breaks a local blockade!
Repair and remerge will cause ships to undock and sail out at inopportune times and face fleeting enemy navies.
Hunt of transport and enemy fleets seem mostly the same at first glance. What will the hunter do if the enemy fleet is stronger?

I am a bit more positive towards condottieri and seamen since it seems to be a significant move in the right direction.
 
somehow I think a new 'conversations that must have happened in EU4' post is due..

"Admiral! Our armada is into position to attack the vile English DRAKE!"

*spanish armada consisting of hundreds of ships sails in to English channel*

"Drake is attacking us in this narrow strait? Is he mad?"

*25 english war galleons trash 20 Spanish Galleons cause Drake has more manoeuvring pips*

"Who cares! We still got 150 more! Send in the rest!"

*rest fled due to low morale, seeing their ships being sunk by the EVIL DRAKE. English win, outnumbered x to 1*

"WHAAAA?"

not even talking about HOW you basically remove ANY use for Galleys in inland seas now. I mean SERIOUSLY? You can only attack with 20 gallyes veruss 20 heavies in and inland sea? What have you been smoking :)

and.. who gives a **** about naval warfare, you nerfed the heck out of purpose of using fleets in last patches..

glad you ATLEAST *focus* on the FEW people that COMPLAIN in MULTIPLAYER about HOW unvisible naval blockades are... Yeah, that really deserves all your attention.

and I'll definatly roll for siege admirals, and replace all my precious slots with siege admirals, cause land generals are useless...

*cynism off for now*

i could do suggestions, but ...

(really shouldn't post in dev diaries)
Then stop stacking ships and start spreading them out? also... With a morale damage of 2 % still makes 50 ships to be sunk before morale drops to zero... And we don´t even know if they actually shuffle during battle, then it would (sadly) still make more sense to stack ships...
 
I fail to see how half of these changes are a major 'overhaul' to naval mechanics, all it's doing is tweaking current mechanics and making them slightly more useful. Going from the information so far I wont be buying the dlc.

It will depend a lot on what is in the patch and what isn't. I like the idea of the state mechanic but thus far the map changes, naval stuff, etc. that I've seen have me seriously considering sticking to the current version because I'm seeing nothing good in them.
 
I´m also rather disappointed with the changes presented here. In my opinion, they are rather uninspired "quick fixes" and will not improve naval warfare.
None of the reasons for the rather dull naval warfare are adressed, as many people have pointed out.

As I´ve done in the past, I´ll try to throw in some ideas to inspire future development in this area - I don´t care if they get adapted or if they just inspire the paradoxians to think about other possible solutions than just tacking something else on top of existing problems and call it solved.

Let´s start by analysing the situation as-is.
Many people have commented how naval warfare is boring.

the only real naval strategy in current version, 1) Put all ships in one doomstack 2) Send doomstack to fight enemy doomstack.

Definitely, Britain's ability to project power with its navy is massively underrepresented at the moment. It frequently would launch raids and capture islands or strategic positions using amphibious invasions with just their ships' companies.

Soooo..how is this changing naval gameplay at all? Seems it will be useless as before.

[...]it does not solve the fundamental problem of how navies are optional, and how naval warfare typically ends in whoever has the smaller fleet stays safely in a port to then end of war.

There are two major problems I currently believe exist in the Naval Warfare area of this game.
  1. Navy's (unless your Japan or England) are almost useless in winning wars
  2. Navy size and power in no way affects a countries ability to create a global empire.

Let´s start with these issues and pick them apart.
According to these statements, navies have too little strategic impact compared to land warfare. It´s obvious that navies cannot conquer territory like armies can, so their role has to be something else. In history and even modern times, navies are important for their ability to project power to oversea territories that are out of reach of your land forces.

Wikipedia said:
The strategic offensive role of a navy is projection of force into areas beyond a country's shores (for example, to protect sea-lanes, ferry troops, or attack other navies, ports, or shore installations). The strategic defensive purpose of a navy is to frustrate seaborne projection-of-force by enemies.

So, which of these tasks are well represented in EU4?

Protecting Sealanes is modelled by Light Ship Influence on Trade Routes (one of THE most innovative features introduced in EU4 in my opinion). In theory, deploying Light Ships along hostile trade node / sea lanes or fleets blocking enemy ports should reduce their trade income and their ability to wage war on land due to lack of financial resources. Unfortunately I have never seen a war in EU4 that was ended due to financial pressure - countries just dip into debt and can easily sustain financial trade income reduction in wartime.

So the issues that need to be adressed in game here is not a naval mechanic, but the economic and diplomatic model of the game. Countries need to suffer far worse from being cut off from sea trade income for long periods, with things getting exceedingly worse the longer the situation remains unresolved. Living a few months without foreign trade income should be unpleasant, but not crippling - but being cut off for years should significantly affect both the treasury and the war exhaustion of the enemy, leading to internal unrest and undermining the war effort of the enemy!

The same goes for Irregular naval warfare - piracy and privateering. Piracy should occur automatically when trade lanes are not protected by sufficient ships. "Sufficient" should be a function of value being transferred down the trade route vs. ships dispatched to protect trade in the area. Hiring privateers should increase the amount of piracy in the region. In my opinion, piracy should be a passive value undermining the trade flow along the node, essentially resulting in a loss to trade flow to the next node.

Ferrying troops and supplying overseas detachments is another major task of navies. In EU4, I feel that deploying troops in overseas campaign is far too easy - just pack your troops into transports and ferry them over - once they are landed on enemy shores, they are fully capable of fighting on the enemy turf. Did any of you ever think about the logistics behind such an operaton? Dispatching troops overseas requires a giant apparatus to supply these troops - even though armies were rather self-sustaining back in the day, they still need equipment that cannot be sourced locally (weapons, munitions, clothes, ...). Landing and sustaining more than a few hundred men in a completely hostile territory for extended periods was probably pretty much impossible back in the day.

In EU terms I could imagine using already existing features like naval supply ranges to model these issues. Having a nearby naval base should make it easier to ferry supplies to expeditionary forces, while landing them far outside your supply range should be an impossible task. The supply limit of your armies in hostile overseas territory should be limited by a function of the range to the next proper naval base (potentially a building?) owned by the invader and the ratio of hostile vs. own ships operating in seazones between the base and the target harbour. This should reduce weird instances of huge maritime landings on areas far away from your homeland - I always found tens of thousands of Ottomans landing in Italy rather weird considering the real world challenges of such operations.

Now, with this backdrop, it is also clear why attacking other navies might be an important task. In order to protect your own commerce and supply lines, you need ships to seek out and destroy enemy vessels that threaten your trade or supply routes. Now it is time to dip into naval combat itself.
In EU, enemy ships and navies are detected and attacked instantly, no matter how big or small. This leads to the inevitable doomstack problems, as small squadrons of ships will rarely stand a chance against a bigger stack, in turn requiring you to turn up with a bigger stack on your own (forcing the enemy to concentrate more ships in his stack... and so on)
or have all ships sit in port and do nothing.
Another problem is again the length of battles that results in a huge escalation as more and more reserves can be drawn into an ongoing battle.

To fix naval combat, I think it is not enough to recude the amount of ships being able to fire. I think ships and fleets should have the ability to avoid detection and combat entirely. It is very very hard to find a single ship or even a larger squadron within an area of thousands of square kilometres. Finding the enemy is much harder than killing him, especially in the vast seascape. Historical naval battles mostly occured when both sides wanted to be found of had little choice of fighting to avoid larger strategic problems like invasions.
In order to represent this, a scouting mechanic (either a battle phase or a pre-battle calculation) is needed - full on naval combat should not be joined automatically, but with a certain chance depending on the size of the fleet relative to your enemy, the amount of maneuverable scouting ships compared to your enemy, your admirals maneuvre and your force morale. This should allow small squadrons to escape easily and resume their work of interrupting enemy sealanes and affecting their trade income. It should take considerable effort to hunt down a number of small squadrons and force them off your sealanes - and it should be time consuming, not just wiping away small stacks with a huge doomstack.

During the real engagement, maneuverability should be a key factor, not just cannons and hull strength. As many posters have pointed out, one of the main features of galleys was high maneuverability, their ability to set the terms of the engagements and their independence from wind. As long as boarding actions, ramming and close combat (i.e. the "shock" phase of the battle) was the main way to engage and overcome enemies, these ships should excell. Only with the advent of long range combat, increasing firepower and improving maneuverability of non-galley ships the balance should shift in favour of the latter. Again, the maneuverability and fire stats of your admiral should be key to determine how the battle is fought. Ideally, naval combat should get rid of the fixed time interval battle phases - instead, the admirals abilities and the state of his ships should decide when the battle switches to another phase. Read:

Wikipedia said:
[...]the gunners fired once and then jumped to the rigging to attend to their main task as marines ready to board enemy ships, as had been the practice in naval warfare at the time [...] Their determination to fight by boarding, rather than cannon fire at a distance, proved a weakness for the Spanish; it had been effective on occasions such as the battles of Lepanto and Ponta Delgada (1582), but the English were aware of this strength and sought to avoid it by keeping their distance.

In this occasion, the shock phase should never occur, because the english have an admiral with lots of maneuver pips, high fire and ships with higher maneuverability.
Note also how ineffective naval warfare was if no boarding action resumed:

After eight hours, the English ships began to run out of ammunition, and some gunners began loading objects such as chains into cannons. Around 4:00 pm, the English fired their last shots and were forced to pull back.[41] Five Spanish ships were lost.
The English and Dutch wars were also known for very few ships being sunk, as it was difficult to hit ships below the water level; the water surface deflected cannonballs, and the few holes produced could be patched quickly. Naval cannonades caused more damage by casualties to the men and damage to the sails than sinking of ships.

The main goal of naval warfare should be to disrupt enemy morale and cohesion, not to sink their ships. Forcing the enemy fleet into retreat while you can hurt trade income and drive up war exhaustion should be the main reason for sustaining navies. Large naval engagements should be rare and a special occurance, something that a player can follow while holding their breath. They should usually not end with a wipeout or huge losses - even decisice historical battles rarely resulted in massive losses.
Lopsided engagements (doomstack vs. small squadron) should be very rare as the small squadron would usually be able to escape and slip away before the larger fleet is able to form up and hurt them.


If you like and I feel motivated to do this, I could draft a completely different and simple combat model on paper and test it with some hypothetical setups and engagements to show what outcomes a different combat model would produce... but not today, I still got some other things to do ;)
 
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I´m also rather disappointed with the changes presented here. In my opinion, they are rather uninspired "quick fixes" and will not improve naval warfare.
None of the reasons for the rather dull naval warfare are adressed, as many people have pointed out.

As I´ve done in the past, I´ll try to throw in some ideas to inspire future development in this area - I don´t care if they get adapted or if they just inspire the paradoxians to think about other possible solutions than just tacking something else on top of existing problems and call it solved.

(...) ;)

Two thumbs up
 
Could you elaborate on this mechanic a little bit? Does this mean that if my fleet of 300 light ships encounters 20 enemy heavies, my ships will be just all sunk in batches because each combat phase is 20 lights vs 20 heavies?

Until eventually you flee or his fleet is sunk
 
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Until eventually you flee or his fleet is sunk


Any word dispersing our concerns that
- corruption will screw RotW even more, especially natives and Chinese group
- static huge regions are encouraging land-blobbing inside XIXth century borders and penalizing countries on their borders/ spanning multiple regions (Genoa, Lithuania, Venice, ...)
- galleys will be useless

Anyway I imagine that if I would feed 20 lights into battle every 5 or 10 days I might win by attrition. Is that preferable gamestyle?
 
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- static huge regions are encouraging land-blobbing inside XIXth century borders and penalizing countries on their borders/ spanning multiple regions (Genoa, Lithuania, Venice, ...)

Can you point out even one of the new regions that correponds correctly to any 19th century border? Because from what I saw, not a single one is correct for that century, and many are actually hugely off for that time period. Even the Britain region has the Shetlands incorrectly outside it in the Scandinavia region.
 
- static huge regions are encouraging land-blobbing inside XIXth century borders and penalizing countries on their borders/ spanning multiple regions (Genoa, Lithuania, Venice, ...)
Everyone in Europe except Circassia starts with two State slots. Admin tech advances, government rankups, and suchlike give you more.

Also, if you actually want to blob, you don't want more than two States, because you have to pay full price for your cores in regions you've marked as States.
 
Any word dispersing our concerns that
- corruption will screw RotW even more, especially natives and Chinese group
- static huge regions are encouraging land-blobbing inside XIXth century borders and penalizing countries on their borders/ spanning multiple regions (Genoa, Lithuania, Venice, ...)
- galleys will be useless

I did read a fair load of posts and the main concern in my view is that while naval combat will be tweaked, it does not adress the lack of usefulness, or probably the vital importance that fleets should have and had back then. Useless galeys is a fair point though, especially now that positioning will be gone; it was the main weakness of heavies.
 
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Can you point out even one of the new regions that correponds correctly to any 19th century border? Because from what I saw, not a single one is correct for that century, and many are actually hugely off for that time period. Even the Britain region has the Shetlands incorrectly outside it in the Scandinavia region.

We had this discussion before. I say that most of them are roughly XIXth century (Italy, France, Iberia, Scandinavia, Germanies, Low Countries, British Islses, ...), sometimes from beginning of XIXth century, sometimes from the second half.
You point that one or two provinces did not belong to that country/region in XIXth century which in your opinion invalidates whole argument. I do not agree with it.
Yes if you want 100% correspondence on 1st January 1821 you probably wont find it. But if we take 95% correspondence and say XIXth century borders then probably most of them fit that definition.
 
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