EU4 Development Diary - 18th February 2016

[GameGabster]

Excellent work as always.

 

[Phantomiux]

I just smell another Expansion...

 

[Artess]

Most interesting changes! I haven't played as any of the African nations yet, and now I definitely will.

One thing that worries me is that these lands will inevitable be overrun by Western colonisers. I understand that we're dealing with alt history and no railroading, but I think it should be softly discouraged both for the AI and the player. For any players interested, this 1820 map of colonial Africa shows that most of Subsaharan Africa - Mali, Songhai, Kanem Borno - as well as the parts being newly added were mostly unexplored back then. An interesting thing is the large mountain chain, the Mountains of Kong. Up until 1880 Europeans believed that Africa was split by this unpassable mountain range, which very much limited the expansion into the Subsahara. Until one day someone went to actually check and found out that there were no such mountains there.

Maybe there could be a mechanic that would prevent Europeans from expanding - by war or colonisation - deep into Africa without spending some effort first, like sending an explorer on a very long and costly mission (to discover that there are no mountains) or changing how terra incognita works in those areas?

 

[Archpepe]

Thanks for the birthday present Paradox.

 

[AlleyTheToaster]

WOW! Guy, that's great job! I am really imprest! What's that new religion? Will it have speciall mechanics? btw, always wanted to ask, will you add mechanics cimilar to Protestants and Hindu ect to Coptic, Confucian and Shitu religions? I hope you will.

 

[MarkS00N]

Seeing how resistant the West African countries against European power in my last game (well, I last played about a month ago, but I don't think the game has changed that drastically), I don't think Central African Countries will be easily crushed or colonized by European as most feared...

Anynway, can't wait for those unit packs!
Will we get advisor or ship pack too? (Although I prefer Asian advisor/ship pack before African )...

 

[ChildeR]

Maybe there could be a mechanic that would prevent Europeans from expanding - by war or colonisation - deep into Africa without spending some effort first, like sending an explorer on a very long and costly mission (to discover that there are no mountains) or changing how terra incognita works in those areas?

IMO a better way to model it would be to make inland overseas territory worth even less than it is.

 

[mursolini]

Or simply ban colonization of Africa till X tech is achieved, malaria and yellow fever outbreak event should wipe out almost whole European army just like during Haitian Revolution where Yellow Fever did most of the killing.

Ban troops other than African from going into the tropical parts of the continent more than 1-2 provinces away from the coast (with maybe very late Military and Diplo tech allowing exploration). If the practical outcome of European and Subsaarian african peoples was that the former couldn't manage to trek deep into Africa due to factors that the game currently models as attrition, but with attrition being in practice unable to put a stop to it, I think it's better to take the shortcut (even while aknowledging its inelegance).

The real issue always was the lack of desire. The way to get around diseases (they were a problem the same way in every continet) is quite well know, breed with locals, and in 50 years your desiese-resistant troops are ready.

It`s not like Europeans were bad at recruiting locals into their armies. South America was conquered by south american natives, India was conquered by indians on british payroll, and deep raids for slaves were conducted mostly by africans themselves. Diseases are issue every empire got around, and medicine is not the only answer.

 

[zbyrne]

Most interesting changes! I haven't played as any of the African nations yet, and now I definitely will.

One thing that worries me is that these lands will inevitable be overrun by Western colonisers. I understand that we're dealing with alt history and no railroading, but I think it should be softly discouraged both for the AI and the player. For any players interested, this 1820 map of colonial Africa shows that most of Subsaharan Africa - Mali, Songhai, Kanem Borno - as well as the parts being newly added were mostly unexplored back then. An interesting thing is the large mountain chain, the Mountains of Kong. Up until 1880 Europeans believed that Africa was split by this unpassable mountain range, which very much limited the expansion into the Subsahara. Until one day someone went to actually check and found out that there were no such mountains there.

Maybe there could be a mechanic that would prevent Europeans from expanding - by war or colonisation - deep into Africa without spending some effort first, like sending an explorer on a very long and costly mission (to discover that there are no mountains) or changing how terra incognita works in those areas?

That map is really interesting. I think a trade post system is needed. You establish a trade post, then a fort. Only after that could you expand into a city, and only then inwards. It would change the nature of colonising Africa, without preventing establishing coastal bases. It would also add to a trade element in that part of the world, particularly in terms of the triangle trade etc. It would slow inward expansion to the point that it would simply be more profitable to focus on the new world, unless you were crazy. There could also be lower supply limits, or higher attrition, representative of disease.

 

[Mujado]

soo the real question what is that bleeding money bag symbol?

Obviously corruption.

 

[Soulburger]

These changes look awesome! I'm actually kind of happy I screwed up my last African Power run. Definitely should be a much more interesting run in the new setup.

 

[Mr. John Smith]

I simply love you paradox

 

[Promanco]

New Religion? WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT
I like the fact that Fetishism is more inclusive than "West African Religion" which is what I assume will equate in the Converter

 

[magnusvejby]

Can this get released right away I can't wait

 

[Druplesnubb]

I checked wikipedia and some of these nations seem to appear much earlier than they should. For example Luba was founded around 1585, while Lunda was founded in 1665 and Yaka was founded 1620. Did you use later kingdoms because you couldn't find enough information on Central Africa in trhe 15th century?

 

[earlofbrigand]

I wonder what type of initiation rites priests have to go through in order to lead the fetishist religion? BDSM? Exhaust pipes?

 

[TheDungen]

Aswesome I hope this means that all colonial provinces outside of south africa goes away, because there was no peaceful colonisation in africa everythign they europeans took they wrested from not that technologically "inferior" african nations.

The only things that will stop those countrys from being conquered are.

1-> Core cost. But even with the +50% coring cost it would still be cheap and feel too "gamey" no one likes that +50% coring cost.

2-> Force limit. Africa units too weak as they have little force limit and their units are bad as they never can keep up with in tech. Unless one country there become really gigantic 10k western troops at lv6-7 are enough to kill them. If they are very very stubborn 20k troops, and later keep 10k there to deal with rebellions and future wars.

Countrys like castille that have a 40k force limit if they expand well can easily do this. France and england too. Portugual need to give up europans wars for that but still possible.

3-> Atrittion -> Maybe giving africa atrittion levels high as winter atrittion, but instead of winter, the summer being the problem. In many levels a jungle can be as deadly as any artic region. This would at least slow down europeans as they don´t want to burn their manpower there for nothing. (They can go for mercenaries but at least here they will be paying a lot for them).

You forgot the option to simply make few if any CBs for europeans to get into africa. Not that I say it's the best way to handle it.

Or simply ban colonization of Africa till X tech is achieved, malaria and yellow fever outbreak event should wipe out almost whole European army just like during Haitian Revolution where Yellow Fever did most of the killing.

Not sure that's the best way to handle it either.

Ban troops other than African from going into the tropical parts of the continent more than 1-2 provinces away from the coast (with maybe very late Military and Diplo tech allowing exploration). If the practical outcome of European and Subsaarian african peoples was that the former couldn't manage to trek deep into Africa due to factors that the game currently models as attrition, but with attrition being in practice unable to put a stop to it, I think it's better to take the shortcut (even while aknowledging its inelegance).

Depends on how severe attrition, also the europeans should move very slowly in africa (meaning more attrition) due to their horses (that is most importantly the ones carryign supplies not the ones people rode to battle) dying of disease.

Seeing that max tech is 32, your suggestion is just that colonization shouldn't be possibly (in essence, make it wasteland again)

Perhaps that is how it should be, I could accept that at horrendrous losses a imperialist minded player could take perhaps one region in africa before the end of the game but quite frankly are do we really want them to open up africa to be conquered by europeans or do we do it to make the african nations, old and new, more intresting to play. Perhaps the fate of the world in EU4 is not to be conquered by europeans.

A) Europeans did establish along the coast, so that wouldn't work, and
B) Player shouldn't be prohibited from trying if they're mad enough, Europeans did penetrate a bit into the land, (such as the Kongo, and South Africa), but it wasn't until the 19th Century that they got all the way into the very interior of Africa.

Yes but this area was very small potatially smaller than even the costal provinces.

*excited unmanly squeals*

Does this mean we may finally get some unit packs for them too?

I certainly hope so.

@Trin Tragula could you add a decision for Byzantium to Re-form the Roman Empire? It would make playthroughs of them all the more worthwhile

I certainly hope not, the byzzies shouldn't even be in EU, it should start later the early era would be better handled by a dynastic game like ck. You have nation designer and the ability to export ck2 games of you want to play byzzies. Any more effort wasted on the byzzies is somethign I'd very much rather not see.



Ok now my own two dimes for europeans and africa, I see two potentials here:

1. Don't allow any europeans in africa, handle the tradeposts they had by other mechanics (like protectorates), easiest way to achieve this is to have no CBs for african provinces. A tad bit ahistorical becuase in reality what kept the europeans out of africa wasn't the lack of being able to justify war on them.
   
2. Attrition, so much attrition, perhaps with an added mechanic of supply lines which meant you troops need supplies from open ports at the coast (and even then it'd fairly limited, which would then quickly decrease as you push inwards, because again european horses didn't work in the region.
   Or simply by lots and lots of attrition for people who don't have their capital in africa. anyway the results are the same, the african nations will outnumber any european armies trying to fight in africa so vastly that there (depsite the tech advatnage) simply is no way to fight efficiently in the area between the sahara and the kallahari.

Doesn't really matter which as long as we establish one thing, that you're not opening africa up to be conquered by foreign powers but to be played as an african, africa is to designed to be an actor not someone acted upon.
I'll leave you with this too (that part regarding africa begins at 3:40)

Or let's put it this way:
"Whatever happens we haven't yet got the maxim gun"

 

[Oahkoah]

So are all these going to be part of trade companies, I assume not and only the African coastal provinces will be TC regions

 

[sterrius]

That map is really interesting. I think a trade post system is needed. You establish a trade post, then a fort. Only after that could you expand into a city, and only then inwards. It would change the nature of colonising Africa, without preventing establishing coastal bases. It would also add to a trade element in that part of the world, particularly in terms of the triangle trade etc. It would slow inward expansion to the point that it would simply be more profitable to focus on the new world, unless you were crazy. There could also be lower supply limits, or higher attrition, representative of disease.

Mostly this will not work because most of africa is already under control of countrys. So unless you create a whole new concept for taking territory in africa this is not going to work.

Another idea i thinked is to give them increased War Score cost.
This way most provinces will cost a lot to take in a war. Enough to slow down wars to a crawl and making more profitable to just protectorade them and take the provinces one by one.

And by no means, while europeans did not taken direct control, they surely had indirect control of the region as they controled the flow of money and the demand of the most profitable resources.

+20% warscore cost and summer atrittion would already slow down europeans a lot.

But nothing can stop a player that wish to paint the world their color. I for instance don´t even care if the provincei s giving a profit or not. I conquer .

And africa today is already more profitable to just take the coast and centrailize the rest of africa in a big protectorade.

You forgot the option to simply make few if any CBs for europeans to get into africa. Not that I say it's the best way to handle it.

You need to buy religious or expansion fully to get nation wide CB there. Its already rare and also set your country for that route.

Spain and portugual get CB by colonizing close to those countrys and fabricating a claim, no way to change this without changing a key concept of the game.

 

[Player 2]

How about adding colonial regions to Africa? Such as South Africa and Madagascar?