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EU4 - Development Diary - 18th of June 2019

Hello and good morning. Today we will finally unveil our long-anticipated changes to the map and political setup of the Balkans, as well as taking a look at Austria. This will be our final dev diary on map changes for the European update.

As befits the fragmented nature of the Balkans, today’s dev diary will be divided into three parts, each written by a member of the Content Design team who personally worked on each region.

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I’ll begin with my own work on Greece and Bulgaria. You’ll notice that province density has noticeably increased, but rest assured we have taken care to avoid adding a net development boost to the Ottomans. We feel that their current level of development makes them a sufficiently powerful force, and any further advantages would harm the experience for players in their vicinity.

We’ve split the Bulgaria area in two, with most of Bulgaria remaining in “Bulgaria” but with the east in the new Silistria area. Bulgaria in total has gained 3 new provinces: Tolcu, split from Silistre, allows for a more accurate Ottoman-Moldavian border. Tirnovo, once a major cultural, military, and economic center for the Bulgarian Empire, declined under Ottoman rule but remained a thorn in the side of the Turks as it was a hotbed for Bulgarian resistance. Finally, Kyustendil/Kostendil was the center of an Ottoman sanjak and an exploitable mining site.

Thrace and Macedonia have also been updated with new provinces. Edirne has lost its access to the sea to the new province of Gelibolu/Gallipoli, home to a mighty fortress and naval arsenal. Parts of the former Edirne have also been added to the new Gumulcine province. Lastly, Selanik is now confined to the area around the city of Thessaloniki, as Siroz now occupies the outer reaches.

Moving down into Greece proper, a new nation has appeared while another is notable by its absence. Epirus, with its capital in the new province of Arta, is ruled by the Tocco dynasty who for whatever reason were previously represented as the rulers of the Venetian vassal-state of Corfu. Corfu no longer exists in 1444, but it retains its core on the island. Epirus also rules the island of Cephalonia, which has been separated from the Corfu province and gives Epirus the ability to produce wine. Fans of Byzantium will be pleased to hear that they now possess an additional province at the start of the game, based around the historic city of Corinth. And in the Aegean Sea, Lesbos has been split from Scio - Lesbos has a strait connection to Biga while Scio connects to Sugla.

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I'm @Caligula Caesar, and I'm here to tell you about our changes to Austria. Now, some of you may be aware that there is a good case for splitting Austria in three at the start of the game and requiring them to unify their territories. However, as a team we elected NOT to do this. Our reasoning is simple: For an enjoyable and challenging game on continental Europe, it is necessary for there to be a strong Austria. As Austria is already one of the more vulnerable superpowers in the early game, making their starting position significantly weaker by reducing their directly held territories by 2/3 would simply not make a better game experience.

We felt that Austria's starting development was fine as it was, but its province density was not quite at the level we wanted, so we added some new provinces by splitting existing provinces' development. As we have already shown, Tirol was split between Inntal and Etschtal and South Tirol became Trent, now an independent tag; also, some impassable mountains were added between Tirol and Venetia. Moving east, we split Kärnten in two between Oberkärnten/Villach and Unterkärnten/Klagenfurt. In the north, Linz's province (now known as Oberenns) was reshaped significantly and room was made for Traungau (with the significant ironworking town of Steyr as its capital) to the south of it. Wien province, too, has been split, with Wienerwald/Sankt Pölten taking its place to the west.

Finally, in the south, we added the Slovene culture. This culture is present in Görz, Krain and Celje. The last of those is owned by a new tag, the Counts of Cilli - known by their German name as its rulers were the German von Cilli family (the tag itself retains Slovene culture, however, and has some dynamic province names for surrounding areas).

Now on to @Ofaloaf 's work on the Western Balkans:

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This work owes a tremendous amount to @otaats and his suggestions in Serbia & friends, which (in a truncated form) served as an inspiration. I also want to give a shoutout to @Wokeg, whose enthusiasm for the region and its history has been an excellent inspiration and motivation.

Most of the mapwork simply provides greater provincial fidelity, but there are some significant changes and additions. Starting with the smaller stuff, Venetian holdings along the Adriatic coast are better defined, with old Dalmatian province now split between Zara and Spalato and Cattaro now spun off from the province of Zeta. Albania also gets a second province, Krüje, which was one of the strongholds of the Albanian ruler Skanderbeg. Fortified and mountainous, Krüje should be a real pain to crack early in the game.

One of the most major additions to the region is the inclusion of Herzegovina. It's a relatively new state in 1444, being largely the creation of Stjepan Vukčić, who inherited those lands in 1435. Stjepan was an incredibly ambitious nobleman who took on the title of herceg (borrowed from German herzog) and ruled a portion of the Kingdom of Bosnia as a de facto independent realm called the Duchy of Saint Sava, which is the name its contemporaries knew it as. While Stjepan had the chops for independent rule, his sons weren't quite as canny, and in 1483 the realm was conquered by advancing Ottoman forces. However, Stjepan's title, herceg, lived on in the Ottoman name for the territory, and this eventually became the name Herzegovina, which is what we know the area now as and, for the sake of familiarity, the name which the realm (and its capital province) is called in-game.

You may have also noticed that Croatia is now present on the map. It starts in a union under Hungary, and depending on Hungarian fortunes may now either break away in one fell swoop or be more firmly incorporated into the Crown of St. Stephen. While the inclusion of Croatia does provide some interesting opportunities for Hungarian expansion or wresting parts of the Hungarian domain away from Budapest, the inclusion of Croatia as a separate entity has called for a little historical fudging. Rule of Croatia and Slavonia was split in 1444, although the two entities were ruled by Croatian brothers at the time of the Grand Campaign, and the titles would be merged together into a united Banate in 1476. To prevent Hungarian diplomatic relations from being eaten up by subjects and give it a slightly more powerful vassal to keep in check, Croatia here is unified slightly early.

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Thank you all for reading this and our other map-based dev diaries, it’s been a pleasure to present our work to you and to read your feedback and ideas. Next week we will take a look at some of the new mission trees coming to this region - most likely Austria, one of the Balkan minors, and something you might not expect. We’ll also talk a little about the Hungarian succession. Until then, have a great week!
 
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Interesting diary. I don’t agree with all of the choices made (looking at the the ahistorical unification, here), but I understand and respect the rationale.

@neondt With the new province of Corinth, will there be a modifier (say, local defensiveness +50%) to represent the Hexamilion Wall? It was among the most ambitious defensive fortifications ever constructed, and today remains the largest archaeological structure in Greece.

Also, Portugal needs new ideas <3
 
Yes and no. In the case of France, France is clearly stronger than any of its vassals, and can probably outclass all of them by itself. In other words, it will be able to deal with having so many, though obviously diplo slots is an issue we have had to address by doing [REDACTED]. On the other hand, the weakened Austria would basically control the six or so provinces in the north-east of the country. Styria and Tirol would each be just as strong, and really they would have to be under PU rather than vassals. This would weaken Austria in the following ways, due to more of Austria being held by the subjects than by Austria:
- High liberty desire in Styria and Tirol; also, PUs being relatively unstable overlord-subject relationships that would have to last for 50 years => relatively high chance of the subjects breaking free.
- Austria, as the Emperor, can use an inflated force limit. However, it would not be able to make use of that significantly as it would not have the resources to pay for a large army. In other words, you'd have a fairly weak Emperor right from game start.
- Austria would lose two relations slots unless we made another custom solution for them.

All of those factors would be exacerbated massively if Austria pursues its PUs with Hungary and Bohemia. Basically, those would probably not happen.

In a case like this, I’d hope that you would make a custom solution for them. In terms of their historical import, they’re certainly deserving of it.
 
Inner Austria (Styria) was the Emperor and the senior succesor. Giving him two vassals (Further Austria under Albrecht and Austria under Ladislaus) as well as a guarantee on Tyrol ruled by Sigmund would make a power-block. PU's make zero sense.

Some good events would result in a solid and stable Austria ready to take on its other neighbours.

Also, lots of modifiers can be given to keep the vassals stabilized under Frederick III. Like the Timurids.
This. A good event chain would be the perfect solution.
 
Be sure to update the relevant missions that pertain to this region. I don't want to wait until 1.29.1 or 1.30 for bugs involving broken missions to be updated and fixed. Agree so that the devs see this.
 
I'm disappointed in that Austria. Styria has every right to be a sovereign nation (they were the EMPEROR, for god's sake), though less so for Tyrol as in 1444 the laker Duke Sigismund was still a minor while Frederick III, HRE and Duke of Styria acted as his regent and made sure most of the revenue of the region would flow into his own pocket.

And while that would weaken Lower Austria (or Austria proper in EU4), on November 11th 1444 they did have a PU over Hungary and within the first few years should have very good chance to gain a further PU over Bohemia (Ladislaus was proclaimed King of Bohemia in 1453). Also, Austria being historical rivals with France is ahistorical garbage, France should get a mutual opinion malus with whoever inherits Burgundy (as well as Burgundy itself). In 1444, France didn't care about Austria, and Austria didn't care about France.

What certainly can't be modeled however is Ladislaus' early death, most likely due to leukemia. So instead, why not drive Styria and Austria into war with one another? Ferdinand III was a highly ambitious man, after all. Perhaps after 1450 or so Styria gets a core on Vienna and declares war by event, if Styria wins and take Vienna they inherit Austria and Tyrol if it exists while Bohemia and Hungary are released, if Austria wins they inherit Styria and Tyrol.
That would be so cool. A really excellent fix.
 
The matter of fact is that Hungary at the time were a really powerful nation that just about to get one of its strongest rulers who could take wien from the Austrians. Hungary had internal leadership issues which led to the disaster battle of mohacs which lead to the turks taking over the country. This was much later than at the start date and at the start Hungary should really be strong enough to fight the turks head on which in the current state it just barely able to do if you can drag the austrians as well as the polish people into it. many of its "benefiting" events for hungary is also horrible like the vegvar system or the black army events which hungary simply unable to afford (even with goldmine boosting) and now due to the Pu hungary cant even build fleets so its also going to be stuck into its imediate area where its surounded by ottos, poles (who unhistorically rival you) and the opportunitistic Austrians and bohemians. oh and because of coring range taking venice is no longer an option.
you keep saying they took Vienna, Hungary did not conquer Vienna. this is a misrepresentation of what actually happened in the conflict.
 
there is also the word "nied der Enns"
for non german , the "Ob" in Ob der Enns is short for "Ober" -> "upper" so the area upper the Enns, and "Nied" for "Nieder" -> ~ "lower" the area of Enns (along the danube)

edit: you could also split the "Ostmark" into "Wald-" and "Wein-" Viertel. ( Quarter of Wood, Quarter of Wine )
Map of modern Lower Austria : Link
edit2: on a 2nd thought, maybe "Weinviertel" wouldn't be that bad, instead of Ostmark

"Oberenns" is definitely wrong, I never heard this before, it should be called "Österreich ob der Enns" or "Österreich unter der Enns" - if this is too long, then the modern names could be used. The reason for this name is because the historic duchy of Österreich (Austria) was split into two parts for administrative reasons - upstream and downstream of the river Enns.

The -viertel names might be even better as the are closer to the area of the provinces. However, I don't think that what is now called "Ostmark" should be split into 2 provinces just for naming. The province currently consists of the "Waldviertel" and the northern portion of the "Weinviertel" (the south is part of Wien province), hard to decide, if it still produces Wein, Weinviertel might be justified.

Another thing I noticed now: what is now the "Wienerwald" should be called "Mostviertel" (Cider quarter). It is exactly the same area in reality as on the EU4 map, while the Wienerwald is much smaller and closer to Wien (I would say partly inside the Wien province now, its the eastern border of the Mostviertel). (The quarters of Lower Austria: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Karte_NOE_Viertel_Bezirke.svg)
 
Since you guys are so keen on using mingmung's map, can't you at least take it a few steps further and add Messembria? I know asking for the devs to follow a river line slightly closer is probably demanding too much effort on their end to optimize Edirne, but Messembria isn't.
 
To add to historical accuracy while still solving the problems with diplomatic relations and a strong subject would it not make sense to have Slavonia as a subject of Croatia at the start of game with a modifier similar to shah rukh lowering the liberty desire to represent the family dynamic? This would keep Hungary's diplomatic relations to 1 and croatia would remain a strong subject while representing the Slavonic influence over the area.
 
Yes and no. In the case of France, France is clearly stronger than any of its vassals, and can probably outclass all of them by itself. In other words, it will be able to deal with having so many, though obviously diplo slots is an issue we have had to address by doing [REDACTED]. On the other hand, the weakened Austria would basically control the six or so provinces in the north-east of the country. Styria and Tirol would each be just as strong, and really they would have to be under PU rather than vassals. This would weaken Austria in the following ways, due to more of Austria being held by the subjects than by Austria:
- High liberty desire in Styria and Tirol; also, PUs being relatively unstable overlord-subject relationships that would have to last for 50 years => relatively high chance of the subjects breaking free.
- Austria, as the Emperor, can use an inflated force limit. However, it would not be able to make use of that significantly as it would not have the resources to pay for a large army. In other words, you'd have a fairly weak Emperor right from game start.
- Austria would lose two relations slots unless we made another custom solution for them.

All of those factors would be exacerbated massively if Austria pursues its PUs with Hungary and Bohemia. Basically, those would probably not happen.

One thing I've noticed from checking different bookmarks (however unsupported of a feature that is) is that during large parts of the game, several nations have a rather large amount of subjects. How much thought have you given to a general rework of diplomatic slots to make this have a possibility to occur throughout the course of the game instead of making custom, nation specific rules that other nations don't benefit from unless you break the game and do silly things?
 
@neondt @Caligula Caesar @Ofaloaf @DDRJake The more I think about it, the more disappointed and dissatisfied I am with the changes in Austria. Some DHEs and modifiers (á la the Timurids’ in the latter case) would be a perfect solution, and would make the whole situation far more dynamic and interesting. Just in this thread (without reading Mingmung’s suggestion thread or whatever), I’ve seen a whole host of ideas that’d be not very difficult to implement and enormously improve both the accuracy and gameplay of the region. In the end, modeling the process of the unification of the Austrian duchies through a good event chain could result in a much stronger and more resilient Austria.
 
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Danube delta fixed in vanilla EU4? I thought I'd never see that day! This is awesome.
 
With the summer holidays coming up we won't get to mechanics for a little while.

GET BACK TO WORK, SLAVE! *whips neondt* :p;)

But seriously, since I don't play vanilla (I play MEIOU&Taxes) the mechanics changes are far more interesting for me, though it IS interesting to see the parallels between vanilla and M&T.
 
The matter of fact is that Hungary at the time were a really powerful nation that just about to get one of its strongest rulers who could take wien from the Austrians. Hungary had internal leadership issues which led to the disaster battle of mohacs which lead to the turks taking over the country. This was much later than at the start date and at the start Hungary should really be strong enough to fight the turks head on which in the current state it just barely able to do if you can drag the austrians as well as the polish people into it. many of its "benefiting" events for hungary is also horrible like the vegvar system or the black army events which hungary simply unable to afford (even with goldmine boosting) and now due to the Pu hungary cant even build fleets so its also going to be stuck into its imediate area where its surounded by ottos, poles (who unhistorically rival you) and the opportunitistic Austrians and bohemians. oh and because of coring range taking venice is no longer an option.

This is not true. In the war in Varna in 1444, the Ottomans fought and won against almost all of Europe. Hungary was never a very powerful state after the establishment of the Ottoman Empire.
 
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