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EU4 - Development Diary - 20th of August 2019

Good day and welcome to another EUIV Dev Diary. This week we shall be tackling the Ecumenical matter of Catholicism in the game.

Catholicism is a bit of a funny one when it comes to religions in EUIV. When the game came out, it was one of the few religions that actually had mechanics attached to it, which helped in making it an attractive choice, both in terms of power for your nation, and flavour for your campaign. Over the many years of EUIV's updates and expansions, many religions across the world have been given their own mechanics and flavour, leaving Catholicism in the lurch. Its mechanisms have dulled in the face of those from other Christian denominations, and it is often blasted as a poor pick of religion for a budding European power, when Protestantisms and the Orthodox and Coptics are such tantalising alternatives.

In the upcoming European Expansion, we want to empower the Catholic faith, and bring a sparkle back to the appeal of remaining faithful to Rome, as well as allowing the Papal States themselves to thrive in the power and authority as being head of the faith, and really feel the impact of the faith being torn apart when reformation hits.

Firstly, as anybody knows, the root of all power is money. To this end, the upcoming expansion will be introducing the Papal Tithe. There will be a treasury in the game, not owned by any nation but belonging to the Curia itself.

As will be a common theme, numbers and UI are far from final

20th Aug Tithe.jpg


The Curia Treasury fattens up based on the number of Catholic nations in the world. The money is not taken from the nations, but rather is added to the Curia based on the amount of Crown Land held by the Clergy Estate in these nations. Nations who pass the Dissolution of Monasteries will stop their lands from contributing to the Tithe.

The Tithe can also be directly paid into by particularly pious nations. Nations can buy indulgence which pays directly into the Tithe, and in addition to feeling relief from avoiding purgatory, can enjoy added Papal Influence and temporary defence from Excommunication.

The Curia Treasury can of course be dipped into, and the privilege few who can do so are the lofty Curia Controllers themselves. Each Curia Controller can pass one Papal Bull in their tenure, which is an action the exclusively costs money from this Curia Treasury. Papal Bulls are unique actions that affect all of Catholicism:

  • Illius qui se pro divini: Enables Crusades after the Age limit is imposed.
  • Apostolicae Servitutis: 50% Cheaper Curia Powers (Levy Church Tax, Proclaim Holy War etc..)
  • Praeclara Carissimi: -5% Development cost
  • Immensa Aeterni Dei: -10% Embracement cost, 25% Institution Spread
    Cardinals will spread institution if the institution has been embraced in a province of another Cardinal or the capital of the Curia(Rome).
  • Libertas ecclesiae: +20% Imperial Authority Growth
    Available if Emperor & Catholic Empire. (Not White Peace)
    All Catholic Nations in HRE get +15 towards approving HRE reforms
  • Dei Gratia Rex: +0.5 Yearly Absolutism & -2 Unrest in Catholic Provinces & -25% Drill Decay
Costs for these are a base of 1,000 ducats from the Papal Treasury, and increase as Reform Desire does. If devout Catholic nations wish to maintain the ability to empower their entire faith in the face of growing Reformation Desire, then they will have to expand Catholic lands or force convert their heretical neighbours.

The Pope himself has also been empowered with the option, but not the obligation, to play as a Kingmaker within the Catholic Faith. Cardinals will still spawn within Europe, but the Pope has the choice to directly appoint cardinals to other nations out of his own pocket.

20th Aug Appoint Card.jpg


The Papal State can assign Cardinals to nations who he thinks will best serve Catholicism. The cost for doing so is relative to the target nation's development and number of existing Cardinals. The Papal State will enjoy added influence to becoming the Papal Controller themselves through this action, and the target nation will have a longstanding boost to relations towards the Pope. Of course, the Papal States can assign Cardinals directly to their own land, but this action will come with a boost to their corruption. To make the traditionally invisible Cardinal mechanic somewhat more omnipresent, Cardinals are now visible on the (placeholder?) religious mapmode.

Finally the Pope can himself add directly to the Tithe with his own treasury. This may be of use for a particularly expansionist Pope who dismays other Christians by declaring themselves Kingdom of God. This Decision will no longer disable Curia mechanics.

Italy and Catholicism remain focus points for the upcoming Update and Expansion, and we're not done talking about them. When the situation in Europe gets a bit spicy thanks to theses being nailed onto doors, there may be more popping up, but for now that's [REDACTED]

Next week, we'll be talking about something completely different, and hopefully welcome news to those who have been wondering what's happening with that 64-bit support we were talking about earlier in the year.
 
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I see, but how involved was the papacy in all this?
If it wasn't any more than a member of the league, I suppose it could be modelled by a regular coalition, no?

Which leads me to another point: coalitions also seriously need to be reworked, as it is now they work fairly well with AE to punish a nation that expands far too fast, but it lacks any concept of balance of power, a integral idea birthed exactly during that time period.
No way the great powers of the time would tolerate their rivals completely eclipsing them without prompting a reactionary alliance, which, I think, is what happened to the Ottomans, no?
Well, the Papacy organised the Holy Leagues of 1571, 1594, 1684 and 1717, each of them an active rather than retaliatory anti-Ottoman undertaking. Also way more extensive than regular coalitions. It would be interesting to have more regionalised AE, but not decaying at all otherwise than through defeating an anti-coalition war.
 
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I like these changes - using money to influence the pope is historical and accurate. These changes add a lot of flavour for playing Catholic and the new modifiers will especially be useful in single player.

However, even with these changes, Catholic will still be the poor man's religion in multiplayer (simply due to a lack of military bonuses). Have you considered how to change this, or perhaps this is linked to mechanics that will be explored later?
 
So no new mechanics to resist the reformation and no reliable benefits for being Catholic?

While the new Curia stuff sounds nice, you can’t reliably be the controller (even when investing heavily, which most nations can’t really do) and you probably can’t rely on the AI doing things that benefit you if they take the Curia. As such, I really can’t see this changing the benefit of defaulting to the reformation in most cases.
 
Well, the Papacy organised the Holy Leagues of 1571, 1594, 1684 and 1717, each of them an active rather than retaliatory anti-Ottoman undertaking. Also way more extensive than regular coalitions.
I see, makes sense then.

It would be interesting to have more regionalised AE, but not decaying at all otherwise than through defeating an anti-coalition war.
I feel like, along with the concept of regional powers, a mechanic where nations band together to keep a balance of power in the region should be introduced.
 
Definitely a not so useful update. I see the Pope gets something and the Curia controller gets something. So now the pope has a stronger game but this doesn't really affect the complaint that unless you are the curia controller Catholicism is inferior. In fact this update buffs what everyone agreed already was strong: the curia controller. I think Catholicism is fine but others seem to think the religion as a normal member of the faith is inferior which this does not address. I wonder if there are more updates to Catholicism.

Does the bull only last as long as the controller lasts or does it remain in effect through the entire game. That could be a good buff to all Catholics.
 
Each Curia Controller can pass one Papal Bull in their tenure,
I love this idea! Looks great, but would it be possible to integrate the Treaty of Tordesillas into this? It was, after all, by Papal Bull that the Iberians “inherited the earth” and I feel like it would be a lot better, both from a historical and gameplay perspective, if the mechanics were tied together rather than just whoever blitzes a colonial nation first. I’d be more than happy to write a suggestion thread on the topic if you think this may be worth pursuing.

Costs for these are a base of 1,000 ducats from the Papal Treasury, and increase as Reform Desire does.
Again, like the idea, but is there anything to stop Catholicism from death spiraling? As reform desires increases and Protestantism runs rampant, what will keep Catholicism an attractive choice when the costs goes up and gold runs down?
expansionist Pope who dismays other Christians by declaring themselves Kingdom of God. This Decision will no longer disable Curia mechanics
Has anything else been done with the decision? I like the change but I feel as if it deserves... more
 
My concern is, what about for the rest of the world? As Japan, if you go Kirishitan, there’s currently no reason to just switch immediately to Protestant, because you can’t get cardinals or invest in the Curia. I get not having non-European cardinals initially, but there should be an event (maybe around 1550/1600?) that allows ROTW cardinals. After all, a lot of the vitality and longevity of the modern Catholic Church is due to its internationalization.
 
The absolute worst is when the CoR isn't a capital province, which means that it can't even be removed with a Forced Religious Conversion victory.
Done right you can always force a CoR to be in a capital. But it does take longer sometimes if you have to do that.
 
Others may focus on the balance or the fun of these mechanical changes, while all I want, is for Duplos head to remain the symbol of cardinals in that mapmode. (Maybe in a simplified way, draw him with a cardinal-hat instead of using a photo)
THIS
 
I really hope defender of the faith mechanic will be reworked in this update as well.

It was something both Spanish and English monarchs used to solidify their prestige and legitimacy.
 
I like it. Paying the pope for influence sucks for most nations I play but it's realistic and makes it harder to get that curia which i don't mind much either, especially when the bulls help all Catholics.

I do think it would be more fun and make more sense to have crusades after 1600 as a reward rather then something that can be bought. I use crusades in half my European games they are handy as. But buying crusades to help fight Sunnis in Africa and the middle east when the reformation has taken over Europe just doesn't seem realistic unless you could use that crusade to influence nations to revert to being Catholics.

So could it be made so if you fullfill certain requirements like winning the league war for the pope. Stopping the centres of reformation and maybe having fewer then 10 tags still heretic excluding the UK and orthodox and 0 great powers. That way the more immediate threat becomes Sunnis again and it's like something to rally the newly reunited Catholic church behind?

Also events to crusade or something similar against the Anglicans would be nice. I know it never happened but if the reformation was stomped out it I'm sure Europe would have been more hostile.
 
Loving the idea of the tithe, as someone more history focused, but in that vein, shouldn't it be the opposite, that countries should be paying to the tithe to secure cardinal positions? This is very literally what happened during the most notoriously corrupt years of the Papal States - tons of people paying their way to the cardinalship with wildly unqualified candidates - it seems a great way to demonstrate in gameplay a real part of the collapse of Catholic domination over Europe. I get that making the Papal States pay gives the Papal player more agency, but perhaps other Catholic nations could also have the option of asking the Papal State to be made a cardinal for a tidy sum added to the Tithe (or the Papal treasury directly), and the Papal States have the choice to accept or decline the offer, with accepting increasing reform desire and/or corruption.

It just seems so fitting that EU4 now has all the mechanics to represent the dilemma faced by the Catholic church in the 1500s (money and immediate power vs long-term stability and contentment) - and it'd be sad to miss the opportunity to represent it as best we can!
 
This is cool but there are some things I'd like to ask: will the chance of becoming curia controller be affected by coring distance too? I ask this because in eu4's timeframe almost all popes were italian even though the italian states were all small (which means fewer cardinals in game).

Secondly, will the crusades be reworked (i'd like them to work like a coalition, but only of catholic countries and with the only requirement to join being a negative opinion of the target and that the target owns land in europe or owns christian provinces or provinces in the holy land.)

Thirdly, will there be any mechanic related to the counter reformation? I'd like to see it change a lot in the catholic world.

Lastly I'd like to ask wheather monastic orders will finally be available for all catholics as it should be.

One thing that I'd also like to see are catholic conversion centers outside of europe.they would represent the missions of many orders (mostly dominicans and jesuits) and they could be spawned by the curia controller like a papal bull in any province outside of europe (one or two every time you spawn them and they last X years).
 
The buying influence may allow the smaller Italian nations (where you tend to have a ton of money but few Cardinals) to play the Catholic game.

Which actually makes the Curia Controller even harder to hold for nations that already play for it.

These changes seem great for the Curia controller. But the Curia Controller was already pretty good.

From what I see, regular Catholics get:

The ability to buy influence for cash. Helpful for some, probably not important if you are large enough to have plenty of Cardinals or don’t have a massive trade base.

Occasional bonuses when the Curia controller issues a papal Bull which may or may not be useful.

Friends of the Pope may be able to get Cardinals more regularly.

While the Dev Diary opened commenting how players typically view Catholicism as a poor choice compared to other Christian denominations, this doesn’t seem to do anything to fix that as it only really buffs the Curia Controller.