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EU4 - Development Diary - 20th of August 2019

Good day and welcome to another EUIV Dev Diary. This week we shall be tackling the Ecumenical matter of Catholicism in the game.

Catholicism is a bit of a funny one when it comes to religions in EUIV. When the game came out, it was one of the few religions that actually had mechanics attached to it, which helped in making it an attractive choice, both in terms of power for your nation, and flavour for your campaign. Over the many years of EUIV's updates and expansions, many religions across the world have been given their own mechanics and flavour, leaving Catholicism in the lurch. Its mechanisms have dulled in the face of those from other Christian denominations, and it is often blasted as a poor pick of religion for a budding European power, when Protestantisms and the Orthodox and Coptics are such tantalising alternatives.

In the upcoming European Expansion, we want to empower the Catholic faith, and bring a sparkle back to the appeal of remaining faithful to Rome, as well as allowing the Papal States themselves to thrive in the power and authority as being head of the faith, and really feel the impact of the faith being torn apart when reformation hits.

Firstly, as anybody knows, the root of all power is money. To this end, the upcoming expansion will be introducing the Papal Tithe. There will be a treasury in the game, not owned by any nation but belonging to the Curia itself.

As will be a common theme, numbers and UI are far from final

20th Aug Tithe.jpg


The Curia Treasury fattens up based on the number of Catholic nations in the world. The money is not taken from the nations, but rather is added to the Curia based on the amount of Crown Land held by the Clergy Estate in these nations. Nations who pass the Dissolution of Monasteries will stop their lands from contributing to the Tithe.

The Tithe can also be directly paid into by particularly pious nations. Nations can buy indulgence which pays directly into the Tithe, and in addition to feeling relief from avoiding purgatory, can enjoy added Papal Influence and temporary defence from Excommunication.

The Curia Treasury can of course be dipped into, and the privilege few who can do so are the lofty Curia Controllers themselves. Each Curia Controller can pass one Papal Bull in their tenure, which is an action the exclusively costs money from this Curia Treasury. Papal Bulls are unique actions that affect all of Catholicism:

  • Illius qui se pro divini: Enables Crusades after the Age limit is imposed.
  • Apostolicae Servitutis: 50% Cheaper Curia Powers (Levy Church Tax, Proclaim Holy War etc..)
  • Praeclara Carissimi: -5% Development cost
  • Immensa Aeterni Dei: -10% Embracement cost, 25% Institution Spread
    Cardinals will spread institution if the institution has been embraced in a province of another Cardinal or the capital of the Curia(Rome).
  • Libertas ecclesiae: +20% Imperial Authority Growth
    Available if Emperor & Catholic Empire. (Not White Peace)
    All Catholic Nations in HRE get +15 towards approving HRE reforms
  • Dei Gratia Rex: +0.5 Yearly Absolutism & -2 Unrest in Catholic Provinces & -25% Drill Decay
Costs for these are a base of 1,000 ducats from the Papal Treasury, and increase as Reform Desire does. If devout Catholic nations wish to maintain the ability to empower their entire faith in the face of growing Reformation Desire, then they will have to expand Catholic lands or force convert their heretical neighbours.

The Pope himself has also been empowered with the option, but not the obligation, to play as a Kingmaker within the Catholic Faith. Cardinals will still spawn within Europe, but the Pope has the choice to directly appoint cardinals to other nations out of his own pocket.

20th Aug Appoint Card.jpg


The Papal State can assign Cardinals to nations who he thinks will best serve Catholicism. The cost for doing so is relative to the target nation's development and number of existing Cardinals. The Papal State will enjoy added influence to becoming the Papal Controller themselves through this action, and the target nation will have a longstanding boost to relations towards the Pope. Of course, the Papal States can assign Cardinals directly to their own land, but this action will come with a boost to their corruption. To make the traditionally invisible Cardinal mechanic somewhat more omnipresent, Cardinals are now visible on the (placeholder?) religious mapmode.

Finally the Pope can himself add directly to the Tithe with his own treasury. This may be of use for a particularly expansionist Pope who dismays other Christians by declaring themselves Kingdom of God. This Decision will no longer disable Curia mechanics.

Italy and Catholicism remain focus points for the upcoming Update and Expansion, and we're not done talking about them. When the situation in Europe gets a bit spicy thanks to theses being nailed onto doors, there may be more popping up, but for now that's [REDACTED]

Next week, we'll be talking about something completely different, and hopefully welcome news to those who have been wondering what's happening with that 64-bit support we were talking about earlier in the year.
 
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That's not a reason to be optimistic though. The fact that something is changing is completely unrelated to the idea that those changes will improve that something. Given the recent changes the game has made and the description of the mechanical changes so far, these changes don't really seem to be improving the game much. If this is actually like playing a new game, it very much appears to be a worse game.

Things that make you happy are entirely subjective. I feel happy about seeing the devs attempt to improve the game. It may not be a good reason to you but it certainly is a reason.
 
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Why would the Pope want only a single catholic nation?
It was a shortcut. Currently, before the update-the Papacy might not be interested in reducing the number of Catholic states, but every single other Catholic state is. Fewer the states -> less competition for RNGesus cardinals -> fewer competitors to become the Curia controller.
The problem with Catholicism as it is and as proposed, is that unless You're big and powerful and can have a ton of cardinals, it simply doesn't make any sense to be Catholic. In the timeframe, it was the no. 1 proselytising religion on the planet Earth, also the biggest and most widespread communication organisation gathering and using data, influencing monarchs etc. It controlled a huge potential of scholarship and established educational institutions and did A LOT of things, especially when it has got its sh@t together after the Trent and became functional again. Yet in the game You won't get cultural influences from Rome, new architectural trends, Jesuits, Dominicans, Franciscans etc. You get -1 tolerance towards heretics. Great.
 
Curia Controler will still be chance-based from papal investment and Cardinals

This is pretty sad, since the randomness of the papal elections are the worst thing about catholicism in my opinion, and apparently also to many other people. However, I want to propose a simple change to that: Instead of having elections in the style of "Whoever invests the most influence gets a high chance to become Curia Controller" I suggest to make it "Whoever invests the most influence gets to be Churia Controller" to get rid of the random factor.

...

I guess I'll just make a suggestion out of this.
 
This is pretty sad, since the randomness of the papal elections are the worst thing about catholicism in my opinion, and apparently also to many other people. However, I want to propose a simple change to that: Instead of having elections in the style of "Whoever invests the most influence gets a high chance to become Curia Controller" I suggest to make it "Whoever invests the most influence gets to be Churia Controller" to get rid of the random factor.

...

I guess I'll just make a suggestion out of this.

This is how it was initially implemented when the game was released :)

But I agree, the Papal gamble isn't really fun and immersive, I don't feel like I'm using the political power of my country to actively try to gain control over the curia, it's more like a slot machine where I'm throwing coins into. So I'll downvote Jake's answer because of this.
 
I agree with the above. When I play catholic I pretty never invest in trying to control the curia. Unless:
1) I've already eaten all the other catholics in Europe (including vassals). No competition -> easy win
2) I've 100 mercantilism and have no need of the other modifiers. Would waste mana anyway.

The guarantee of a certain decent temporary/small perpetual buff for a small fixed amount of papal mana is worth more to me than at best 50% change of a very good temporary buff for a large amount of papal mana.

Until imperialism and mass conversions or at least religious ideas, papal mana is to scarce to be wasted. Also the manpower buff is very good and the stability one is super good especially to get the 3 stab. And the others although situational can also be very good (the feeling when you click forgive usury while running 6-7 loans).

Sometimes in mid game I buy the first ticket to the curia lottery just because the first is so cheap and I already have a good mana influx for the buffs. But I never really commit..


Regardless, in my opinion catholicism is not that bad of a religion. But it only truly shines for:

Europeans tags going for european hegemony -> no competition, permanent curia buff
Europeans tags going for heavy imperialism with religious ideas -> a lot of mana from heathen conversions to spend on having all temporary buffs constantly up + mercantilism (synergy with colonial empire)

It's... a snowball religion. Once you've won the game you can win even harder.

However few tags are able to be in one of the above positions reasonably easily before late game. Thus the issue with catholicism being not that good of a choice for the vast majority of european tags. Though the answer here is easy and straightforward: join the reformation. Or at least make so the reformation eats all other catholic tags so you can monopolize the curia (i.e. be like France in the 30 years war then eat all teh catholics remaining). The reformation is complementary to catholicism from a game play perspective.
 
Oh, I didn't know that. Do you recall the reasons why it was changed or in which patch it happened?
IIRC it was changed due to being too easy to game.
 
Papal Bulls are interesting. And perhaps a sign of something I've long lamented when it comes to Catholicism.

Here's what I mean. If you're not a nation that starts with a significant number of Cardinals. There is no real reason to resist Reformation.

So if I'm Desmond with 0 Cardinals I actually have no reason not to go Anglican or Reformed or Protestant.

Now I have a minimal reason not to convert, based on how often/if the AI will actually use these Papal Bulls (as I'll still never become Curia Controller).

I think perhaps with the Estate Rework and Catholicism rework you need another side to the Cardinal/Curia lever. In this case something where there can be an option for Catholics as an Estate Interaction of like...

"Establish Cardinal's Close:
Sets aside private estates and rights for the local authority of the Holy See. Gain a Cardinal in the Curia if one is available. Clergy gains +10% Crown Land. Improves relations with Papal State by 50. Clergy cannot have less than 2% Land until end of game per instance of this edict."

Or something akin to that. Gives a way for a non-traditional nation to gain some power in the Holy See. It has a distinct cost (in that minimum land floor) that might actually be a question of if someone wants to do it or not (as opposed to Sack of Gold for Maximum Absolution Cap which I can't see anyone really taking outside of desperate times).
 
I would just remove the crusade Papal Bull right away, possibly replacing it with more moderate static military modifiers. With the crusade Papal Bull it will end up being almost impossible to make it a somewhat balanced religion for both single and multiplayer. For multiplayer it makes being the curia controller too important, for single player it will be too easy to keep the crusade modifiers up.

With the planned mercenary changes the 30% increased manpower (and the resulting monthly manpower gain) seems too powerful to turn down, especially when it comes with a 10% morale bonus and +1 yearly prestige and more.
 
This is pretty sad, since the randomness of the papal elections are the worst thing about catholicism in my opinion, and apparently also to many other people. However, I want to propose a simple change to that: Instead of having elections in the style of "Whoever invests the most influence gets a high chance to become Curia Controller" I suggest to make it "Whoever invests the most influence gets to be Churia Controller" to get rid of the random factor.

...

I guess I'll just make a suggestion out of this.
That wouldn't deal with the part where the mechanic wants you to eat other Catholics so you don't have any competition.
 
Any chance that you will rework how the Crusades work? Right now you get a few bonuses if you attack the target nation, but it doenst actually call you to war against them. It's more or less a bonus in your own wars against them and doesnt feel like a crusade. Why not try and create a proper Crusade with possible targets being the Levant and any muslims holding european territory? The Crusade gets called and you can give your army to it, which will then have to march to the target along with any others who might join. This army cannot be used anymore in your own wars unless you call it back and any reinforcements arrive veeeeery slowly. Capturing the Levant means creating the KOJ which then becomes autonomous and you can influence it depending on your crusade participation, prestige, diplorep, etc.

To help out any crusade targets, i guess that the crusader armies wouldnt be able to take anything other than the Levant or give back the cores to the european nations who lost them.

I am not saying it's a great idea, but it certainly has more flavor than clicking a button and getting some bonuses for your wars against a specific nation. That doesnt feel like a crusade. Something like the above would be fun.
 
I don't see how it'd work out well. I mean most of the Crusades were less "Free a nation" like Jerusalem and more stuff like "Boot the Moors out of Iberia" such as the Reconquista. Or the Baltic crusades adding to an existing polity. Really what you suggested only works well for that one case. An event to establish Jerusalem. Which is kind of outside the timeframe in general. Really the only one I remember falling in the game's timeframe is the Reconquista myself.

Which I guess is why it's modeled the way it is. Not like the Reconquista saw a flood of Hessian knights coming to turn Grenada into the Hessian Order as a nation or something. So it's fitting to that extent. And an important check for early power against the Ottomans to keep them from just steamrolling into the more valuable European clay than taking up the relatively low value desert of Arabia.
 
I feel like the current crusade buffs are big enough for the timeframe (any real major crusade for the holy land had already happened, and the crusades that still came were more coalitions of a few different nations than a big gathering of armies from all over the Christian world).
 
Any chance that you will rework how the Crusades work? Right now you get a few bonuses if you attack the target nation, but it doenst actually call you to war against them. It's more or less a bonus in your own wars against them and doesnt feel like a crusade. Why not try and create a proper Crusade with possible targets being the Levant and any muslims holding european territory? The Crusade gets called and you can give your army to it, which will then have to march to the target along with any others who might join. This army cannot be used anymore in your own wars unless you call it back and any reinforcements arrive veeeeery slowly. Capturing the Levant means creating the KOJ which then becomes autonomous and you can influence it depending on your crusade participation, prestige, diplorep, etc.

To help out any crusade targets, i guess that the crusader armies wouldnt be able to take anything other than the Levant or give back the cores to the european nations who lost them.

I am not saying it's a great idea, but it certainly has more flavor than clicking a button and getting some bonuses for your wars against a specific nation. That doesnt feel like a crusade. Something like the above would be fun.
Condo mechanics paid out of the papal treasury maybe.

Honestly just make it so crusades give a universal CB and not just those that neighbour you, being able to call crusades on heretics or the excommunicated would also be appreciated.
 
Honestly just make it so crusades give a universal CB and not just those that neighbour you, being able to call crusades on heretics or the excommunicated would also be appreciated.
While having the crusade target routinely be an Italian state would be amusing, I don't think it would be a good idea.