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EU4 - Development Diary - 21st of May 2019

Hey folks, it's time for another EU4 dev diary! My name's Mike, and like my good colleague @Caligula Caesar I've been part of the EU4 Content Design team since December. We've been working on a solid chunk of Europe, and it's time to start showcasing some of this work. As @neondt has mentioned before, we've had a lot of suggestions and feedback from the community, and through further earnest exchanges we've refined the map further.

But, before we get to the end, let's talk about the process quickly, because I know that's what you truly crave.


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This image is what was used to pitch the idea of what would end up becoming the revised province layout in northern Italy. As you'll see in a moment, it differs from what we ended up with in a couple of ways- Como was added later, along with a split in another North Italian province. Province 5 was originally conceived as a separate Aquileia province (since the country still exists as a releasable in Friuli, it was tempting to see what could be done with it) but that idea was eventually discarded in favor of a new Trieste province.


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Southern Italy developed much closer to what the original draft envisioned. The southern half of the Italian Peninsula has only a few additions, Avellino being the one that probably sticks out the most. The island of Sicily received a bit more attention, with the island's three provinces turning into five instead. Its new divisions were guided a little bit more by game design priorities than historical divisions, as historical divisions like Sicily's real province of Trapani had sizes and shapes that would have really stuck out like a sore thumb in EU4.

Unlike the northern Italian proposal, the southern Italian one was nearly implemented as-is. The biggest difference is that “Agrigento” had its name changed to “Girgenti”, which seemed more accurate for the period. Conversely, several proposed name changes to pre-existing provinces were not implemented, as they just didn't seem necessary upon review.


“Show us the new map already!” I can hear you guys politely demanding. Fine, fine!


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Three new countries were added to the map as independent states. In the far north is the Prince-Bishopric of Trent, an Austrian country in control of an Italian province. To the west lies Saluzzo, nervously wedged between Savoy and France. In Romagna, Bologna is now an independent republic coveted by its neighbors.

Alongside these three countries are a couple new potential revolters. Padua and Verona now have cores on their respective provinces and can break away from Venice if the stars align, and Spoleto now exists as a core in Spoleto province, in case the Papal State's control of Central Italy ever starts to fall apart.

If we zoom in a little, more details reveal themselves.


northern italy.png


As the conversation linked at the start of this post highlights, Como originally was not considered, but after some discussion it became apparent that the inclusion of it (or at least something north of Milan) was called for. Thus, Como's complete contours now complement the comprehensive composition of that corner.

The creation of a separate Bologna province also prompted a revision of the remnant of old Romagna province; the old province's capital is now Ravenna, and Ravenna was taken by Venice in 1440 or 1441, so Romagna now starts off under Venetian rather than Papal control, although the Papacy does retain its core on the province. I'm sure this is fine and will definitely not be a source of tension between the two countries.


southern italy.png


Southern Italy was implemented essentially as described above. Sardinia received some attention and now includes Arborea as its own province on the west side of the island, but other Sardinian giudicati were not included primarily for the sake of balance- Sassari province in northern Sardinia has only 3/3/2 development as it is, and splitting that in two would create provinces with as little development as an Uzbek province in the Steppes.

Aside from the obvious mapwork, there is one other thing we added to southern Italy:

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And there you have it! Next week, we'll be talking about missions.
 
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Sarcasm is dead.
Having a degree in sarcasm, I can most assuredly say that if that was intended in sarcasm, it failed.
Trust me, I’m an expert
 
Corsica should also be split between the north (Cismonte) and south (Pumonti), with the former under Genoese control, and the latter independent but guaranteed by Aragon. I made a suggestion about it here yesterday.

Otherwise, I don't really have anything else to add. Just a question: would it be possible for us to get a look at the culture map mode in one of these screenshots?

Very well written, and very well laid out. I agree completely, by adding a another province Corsica, you turn Corsica from a boring backwater, into at least a theatre of confrontation between Genoa and Aragon. Your post illustrates how Corsica has been divided during the EU4 time period very well too. I would also like to add that Geographically speaking the North-East was not as mountainous as the very imposing central and southern parts of Corsica so splitting Corsica in two can also better represent the difference in terrain as well, I would make Pumonti province mountains rather than hills given how dense the mountains are in the centre and south of the island. Lastly, having southern Corsica as its own country would also be a fun achievement country to play as I think. One of the earlier arguments against splitting Corsica into two provinces is that Paradox is planning on phasing out 2 province states but, IMO the status quo of Sardinia and Corsica constituting a single state (just with 5 provinces rather than 3 originally) is not the end of the world either.
 
Speaking about Corsica... it's difficult to reflect ingame the situation in 1444.

I'd divide Corsica into Pumonti and Cismonte, having Cismonte under Genoese control and Pumonti as a feud of the Pope (Corsica as a vassal). Aragon with claims (not permanent) in both provinces, while Genoa should have a permanent one.

An event should spam for Papal States around 1450-1455, to hand the land to Genoa (Genoa integrates Corsica, main AI option), to fulfill Anagni treaty (Aragon vassalizes Corsica) or they decide to keep Corsica as a Papal vassal, making both, Aragon and Genoa enrage.

What do you people think?
 
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Sorry, I thought you were serious about San Marino. Still, you can't really add most of those states on the map without it becoming a nightmare to select the provinces. If you add 2 more provinces in what in the new map is Urbino, Ravenna and Bologna, they would be smaller than Frankfurt on average. Frankfurt is fine because it's a single province, surrounded by slightly larger provinces. In Romagna it would be a mess, because they would all have to have weird shapes to fit the capital within the province and also be large enough to select. I don't understand why you are so insistent on adding these microstates over something of immense strategic value like Valtellina.


I never said unifying Italy is only for the big 6. Of course you should be able to form Italy as any of the Italian states. What I'm saying is that something like Lucca could never even dream of beating Milan in a fair fight, which is why the balance should be around the big 6. They are the real powers of Italy and decide what states get to live or die. If the balance between Venice and Milan is off, that's a lot worse than if Venice is too strong compared to Urbino. I know that's a bad example, as there is no comparison between those. Venice would need 40 extra provinces to be at the correct power level compared to Urbino.
You can't expect it to be as easy to form Italy as Urbino as it would be to do the same as Milan? A player can do it for sure. There are players who have conquered the world as Ulm and Ryukyu, so forming Italy as any of the Italian states should be easy compared to that.


Germany didn't have many large powers like Italy did. It was split into hundreds of tiny little states and a couple of bigger ones (Brandenburg, Austria, Bavaria, Saxony). Sure, Italy had its share of tiny states as well, but Italy had those large states, and even some middle sized states like Siena, Genoa, Modena and Mantua.
I don't understand why the bigger states can't have more provinces. What harm does giving more provinces to Milan or Venice do, other than increasing the difficulty of forming Italy as an Italian OPM? If anything, that's more historical.
The map is simplified because it's for a game. Adding all those microstates would not make playing in Italy an enjoyable experience for a lot of player. I know that the Papal States was not a unified state, but you just can't add all the little states that were under Papal influence. A compromise has to be made, and the new map of Italy is a really good setup, both for gameplay and for the historical start.

How about you try to make the provinces you are suggesting work? Download the map from the DD and use Paint to draw in the provinces you'd like to see. If run into problems because it's too small, you can try to imagine how hard it would be to fit all those into the province map, which is several times smaller than the screenshot in the DD.

Here my map redesigned with 49 provinces (Ferrara, Saluzzo, Pisa, Arezzo, Genova, Albenga, Torino, Nizza, Venice, Florence are not numbered because they are good) for central and north Italy.
I have insert also the changes suggest for Valtellina, Corsica and Friuli regions.
Obviously not all provinces added should be played as factions.
Some of them could be vassals (in particular in Central Italy as vassals of Pope) and others provinces holded by the already existent factions (their conquest can create some historical event as overextension like for Agnadello Battle), but there are many others factions and the march toward the unification of Italy (and conquest of 46) Rome) is much more difficult with many alliance and coalitions.
This suggestion create an enviroment like HRE and can help to insert it for Catholicism and Pontifical States (like missions, vassalage and events) upgrade.
7) Asti+ 3) Casale provinces = Monferrato, after their unification.
7) Asti and 3) Casale provinces are not vassals of Savoia, because their unification create Monferrato an independent State useful for the War of Succession in Mantua (as mission for Gonzaga).
Sforza family can obtain the control of Milan by marry a Visconti daughter or through the conquest starting from their provinces in Romagna: 33) Forlì and 40) Pesaro.
As Milan province I have added 10) Lodi (useful for create rivalry with Venice and Peace of Lodi event) by resizing of 15) Cremona province (historically much more little than 16) Mantua province).
Venice now has got also 18) Vicenza province and not only 19) Padua, 11) Bergamo and 30) Ravenna.
The two powers in North Italy (Milan and Venice) historically has many claims (among each other and on the others factions provinces, this create more difficulty to them because, the others factions can see them like rivals/enemy and create coalitions and alliance against them).
I based myself for their territorial claims on these two maps previously posted in this thread here and here.
I have named 12) Valtellina and 6) Ticino as hold by "Switzerland" (I don't know if there will be a redrawing also of that place, but if possible to named it as provinces of Three Leagues).
For 1) Tenda and 49) Guastalla provinces I have put a secondary branches respectively of Savoia family and Gonzaga family (in alternative they can be their vassals like Provence with France).
Savoia 2° family branch control also Torino and 2) Cuneo.
Savoia 1° family branch their provinces in France.
33) Forlì could be named in alternative as Imola (they have the same claim and Sforza family as ruler).
Now I add here how redistribute the numbered provinces by factions as political situation.
1) Tenda (Savoia 2° Family branch)
2) Cuneo (Savoia 2° Family branch)
3) Casale (Paleologo Family)
4) Novara (Visconti Family/Milan)
5) Como (Visconti Family but can create Abbondio Republic after their death with secession from Milan)
6) Ticino (Switzerland but Milan has a claim for create Insubria region as mission)
7) Asti (Visconti Family until their death, after that Paleologo, but Saluzzo has a claim)
8) Pavia (Visconti Family/Milan)
9) Milano (Visconti Family)
10) Lodi (Visconti Family/Milan but Venice has a claim)
11) Bergamo (Venice but Milan has a claim)
12) Valtellina (Switzerland but Milan has a claim)
13) Brescia (Venice but Milan has a claim)
14) Piacenza (Visconti family/Milan, after their death can create independent Duchy under Farnese Family)
15) Cremona (Visconti Family/Milan but Venice has a claim)
16) Mantova (Gonzaga 1° Family branch)
17) Verona (Venice but there is a claim of HRE and Milan)
18) Vicenza (Venice but there is a claim of Milan and HRE, the province can rebel through aristocratic imperial coup)
19) Padova (Venice)
20) Treviso (Venice)
21) Friuli (Venice)
22) Gorizia (vassal of HRE under count Leonhard of Gorizia, Mantua could have a claim by married daughter of Ludovico III Gonzaga "the Turk")
23) Carniola (HRE)
24) Istria (Venice)
25) Massa (Malaspina Family)
26) Parma (Visconti family/ Milan, after their death can create independent Duchy under Farnese Family)
27) Reggio (Este family/Ferrara but Milan has a claim)
28) Modena (Este family/Ferrara, vassal of HRE)
29) Bologna (Bentivoglio, rebel vassal of Pope, Milan has a claim)
30) Ravenna (Venice but Farnese and Pope has a claim)
31) Carrara (Malaspina Family)
32) Lucca (Republic, Milan and Florence has a claim)
33) Forlì (Sforza Family but Venice and Pope has a claim)
34) Rimini (Malatesta Family, but Venice has a claim)
35) Urbino (Montefeltro Family, vassal of Pope)
36) Cismonte (Genova)
37) Piombino (Appiani Family under HRE but Milan and Lucca has a claim)
38) Siena (Republic, but Milan and Florence has a claim)
39) Perugia (Baglioni Family, vassal of Pope, Milan has a claim)
40) Pesaro (Sforza family, but Della Rovere and Malatesta has a claim)
41) Pumonti (Aragon)
42) Castro (Farnese Family, vassal of Pope)
43) Pitigliano (Orsini Family, vassal of Pope but Florence has a claim)
44) Ancona (Republic but Pope and Malatesta has a claim)
45) Senigallia (Della Rovere Family, vassal of Pope, Malatesta has a claim)
46) Roma (Pope)
47) Spoleto (Pope)
48) Camerino (Da Varano Family, rebel vassal of Pope)
49) Guastalla (Gonzaga, 2° Family branch, useful for War of Succession in Mantua if they are independent and existence)
 

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So, I was bored and somebody suggested to use the real province map (sorry for no quotation), but that's what I've done.
For comparison, next to corsica is Frankfurt and beneath that are some Caribbean islands which are smaller.
It's for random reasons the draft by LucaF (mainly because it's the latest post, it does not reflect my opinion on the developers' changes). Excluding the piedmont because I don't have the new map and I didn't want to redraw the whole area. Note that sometimes the borders are still included and that several colors are reused, so I don't recommend to use this map. For that reason I added a cut to of the original map. Please use the province map for further province suggestions instead of game screenshots, it's more accurate and it took me to make the whole thing like twenty minutes.
 

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So, I was bored and somebody suggested to use the real province map (sorry for no quotation), but that's what I've done.
For comparison, next to corsica is Frankfurt and beneath that are some Caribbean islands which are smaller.
It's for random reasons the draft by LucaF (mainly because it's the latest post, it does not reflect my opinion on the developers' changes). Excluding the piedmont because I don't have the new map and I didn't want to redraw the whole area. Note that sometimes the borders are still included and that several colors are reused, so I don't recommend to use this map. For that reason I added a cut to of the original map. Please use that it's more accurate and it took me to make the whole thing like twenty minutes.

It's a good job!. Thanks!
Yeah, Frankfurt is graphically more smaller than the italian provinces that i suggest in my previous post to add.
 
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Very well written, and very well laid out. I agree completely, by adding a another province Corsica, you turn Corsica from a boring backwater, into at least a theatre of confrontation between Genoa and Aragon. Your post illustrates how Corsica has been divided during the EU4 time period very well too. I would also like to add that Geographically speaking the North-East was not as mountainous as the very imposing central and southern parts of Corsica so splitting Corsica in two can also better represent the difference in terrain as well, I would make Pumonti province mountains rather than hills given how dense the mountains are in the centre and south of the island. Lastly, having southern Corsica as its own country would also be a fun achievement country to play as I think. One of the earlier arguments against splitting Corsica into two provinces is that Paradox is planning on phasing out 2 province states but, IMO the status quo of Sardinia and Corsica constituting a single state (just with 5 provinces rather than 3 originally) is not the end of the world either.
For the record the purpose of linking the thread wasn't for self-promotion, just laziness because I didn't feel like explaining it all lol. But that being said, I do appreciate the kind words and I'm glad to have at least gotten a discussion going about this. :D

Speaking about Corsica... it's difficult to reflect ingame the situation in 1444.

I'd divide Corsica into Pumonti and Cismonte, having Cismonte under Genoese control and Pumonti as a feud of the Pope (Corsica as a vassal). Aragon with claims (not permanent) in both provinces, while Genoa should have a permanent one.

An event should spam for Papal States around 1450-1455, to hand the land to Genoa (Genoa integrates Corsica, main AI option), to fulfill Anagni treaty (Aragon vassalizes Corsica) or they decide to keep Corsica as a Papal vassal, making both, Aragon and Genoa enrage.

What do you people think?
The south was always under Aragonese influence though. The Pope sent a contingent of his forces to assist the Genoese in pacifying the north, yes, but it did not have much political influence over the island as a whole. It was afterall the north which attempted to grant the Pope sovereignty over Corsica under Mariano da Gaggio, while the nobles of the south continued to remain loyal to King Alfonso. I agree that the Pope should get involved somehow, but to represent Corsica as a Papal vassal is simply inaccurate.
 
I think more provinces are needed. Also the Apennines should be added to split off Tuscany since the pass there was really important.

Speicifcially Aosta (same reason as como, gives a buffer to Turin, also for arpitan culture), Valtellina, Forli, Perugia, Massa, maybe split Ancona in two. Also Corsican culture should be added-if Maltese and freaking Theodoro can be OPM cultures then there's no excuse to neglect corsican when they ended up revolting against Genoa in the 18th century.

There's no reason that Sicily should be six provinces IMO. The island was politically unified throughout the period. I'd rather have more provinces in the north and central Italy which were highly divided and bitterly contested.
 
For the record the purpose of linking the thread wasn't for self-promotion, just laziness because I didn't feel like explaining it all lol. But that being said, I do appreciate the kind words and I'm glad to have at least gotten a discussion going about this. :D

I just liked seeing effort put into how things are laid out and presented! I think we've all been guilty of making a really, really long research post and when it comes out, its just an impenetrable wall of text.

As for Corsica, one question I have for you is culture. Before we all just had to accept that "Sardinian" culture is a level of abstraction for the Eastern Tyrrhenian islands because the unwritten rule for cultures generally is that you need at least three provinces with it to justify it existing. With Sardinia getting a 3rd province though, "Sardinia" itself has enough for Sardinian culture. Should Corsica change to Tuscan culture or should Corsica continue to have Sardinian culture to represent the linguistic and cultural continuum between the two islands?
 
As for Corsica, one question I have for you is culture. Before we all just had to accept that "Sardinian" culture is a level of abstraction for the Eastern Tyrrhenian islands because the unwritten rule for cultures generally is that you need at least three provinces with it to justify it existing. With Sardinia getting a 3rd province though, "Sardinia" itself has enough for Sardinian culture. Should Corsica change to Tuscan culture or should Corsica continue to have Sardinian culture to represent the linguistic and cultural continuum between the two islands?
I should have anticipated this actually. As it stands, there really is no ideal solution as clearly a separate Corsican culture would work best. However, since that is not something the devs would likely ever implement due to not having 3 provinces, I actually think Sardinian was the right choice on the part of the devs for a few reasons.
  1. Corsican may be closest to Tuscan linguistically, but other than that there was very little direct interaction of note between the two in the EUIV timeframe. I mean sure, for a while Corsica was a vassal of Piombino at one point in the 16th Century, but that didn't last long at all and definitely did not see the two integrated at all
  2. Corsicans always resisted attempts by the Italian mainland to dominate them, be it the Genoese, the Milanese, etc. Even today, the vast majority of Corsican nationalists continue to be just that: Corsican nationalists, not Italian ones
  3. As you mentioned there was significant contact with Sardinian, even to the point where the predominant language in Sassari became Corsican rather than Sardinian
  4. I think sometimes a little abstraction is necessary. Hell I continue to advocate for Dalmatian as an abstract representation of the several different Romance-speakers of the eastern Adriatic (Dalmatians, Istriots, Istro-Romanians, Friulians, Istroveneti, etc.) so I think it would be hypocritical of me to be against abstraction in the Tyrrhenian, especially considering it's only two potential cultures that are being abstracted into one rather than a bunch of them
Generally what this all boils down to is that language alone cannot and should not define a culture, but rather is only one of many factors that must be taken into consideration, and with that in mind, while Sardinian is not necessarily ideal, it seems to be the best option available so far. ;)
 
For the record the purpose of linking the thread wasn't for self-promotion, just laziness because I didn't feel like explaining it all lol. But that being said, I do appreciate the kind words and I'm glad to have at least gotten a discussion going about this. :D


The south was always under Aragonese influence though. The Pope sent a contingent of his forces to assist the Genoese in pacifying the north, yes, but it did not have much political influence over the island as a whole. It was afterall the north which attempted to grant the Pope sovereignty over Corsica under Mariano da Gaggio, while the nobles of the south continued to remain loyal to King Alfonso. I agree that the Pope should get involved somehow, but to represent Corsica as a Papal vassal is simply inaccurate.

The issue is that in 1444 southern Corsica was occupied by the Papal armies. They were not a vassal at all, but how can we reflect the situation? I think this is a good way.
 
I think more provinces are needed. Also the Apennines should be added to split off Tuscany since the pass there was really important.

Speicifcially Aosta (same reason as como, gives a buffer to Turin, also for arpitan culture), Valtellina, Forli, Perugia, Massa, maybe split Ancona in two. Also Corsican culture should be added-if Maltese and freaking Theodoro can be OPM cultures then there's no excuse to neglect corsican when they ended up revolting against Genoa in the 18th century.

There's no reason that Sicily should be six provinces IMO. The island was politically unified throughout the period. I'd rather have more provinces in the north and central Italy which were highly divided and bitterly contested.

Aosta become a province in 1859.
I agree with you for more provinces like Valtellina, Forlì, Perugia, Massa and Ancona, and less Sicilian provinces on the map.
 
hello everyone, It's my first post in this forum. I'm from padova, and i can only say: Allelujah dear paradox. Padova and Pavia not on the italian map was a shame for u. Another top add is trieste. Only thing wrong i think it's that aquileia should be present instead of gorizia that was never been an important city/province in any era.
Saying something a little off topic, i think that the missions tree for Venice is very very very small! I think that the Serenissima deserve more attention.
Btw, thanks for all your awesome work. eu series is the best game ever for me (with daoc). :D
 
Only thing wrong i think it's that aquileia should be present instead of gorizia that was never been an important city/province in any era.
At the height of their power in the mid-14th Century, the Counts of Gorizia were also Dukes of Carinthia, Counts of Tirol, Princes of the Holy Roman Empire, Margraves of Istria, and held various estates in Venetia under their direct control. They even continued to exist, albeit as a rump state with their capital moved from Gorizia to Lienz, in 1444, and would continue to be independent until 1500. The Patriarchate of Aquileia meanwhile had already been annexed by Venice in 1444. True, the Counts of Gorizia were originally vassals of the Patriarchate, but these ties were severed in the 14th Century, roughly 100 years before the game even starts. The city of Lienz even continues to use arms derived from the Counts of Gorizia today. So don't let the current state of modern Gorizia fool you, it was in fact an important power in the region for a time despite what it ended up becoming. ;)

I suggest reading this piece if anybody is interested in digging any further into the Counts of Gorizia. :D