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EU4 - Development Diary - 21st of May 2019

Hey folks, it's time for another EU4 dev diary! My name's Mike, and like my good colleague @Caligula Caesar I've been part of the EU4 Content Design team since December. We've been working on a solid chunk of Europe, and it's time to start showcasing some of this work. As @neondt has mentioned before, we've had a lot of suggestions and feedback from the community, and through further earnest exchanges we've refined the map further.

But, before we get to the end, let's talk about the process quickly, because I know that's what you truly crave.


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This image is what was used to pitch the idea of what would end up becoming the revised province layout in northern Italy. As you'll see in a moment, it differs from what we ended up with in a couple of ways- Como was added later, along with a split in another North Italian province. Province 5 was originally conceived as a separate Aquileia province (since the country still exists as a releasable in Friuli, it was tempting to see what could be done with it) but that idea was eventually discarded in favor of a new Trieste province.


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Southern Italy developed much closer to what the original draft envisioned. The southern half of the Italian Peninsula has only a few additions, Avellino being the one that probably sticks out the most. The island of Sicily received a bit more attention, with the island's three provinces turning into five instead. Its new divisions were guided a little bit more by game design priorities than historical divisions, as historical divisions like Sicily's real province of Trapani had sizes and shapes that would have really stuck out like a sore thumb in EU4.

Unlike the northern Italian proposal, the southern Italian one was nearly implemented as-is. The biggest difference is that “Agrigento” had its name changed to “Girgenti”, which seemed more accurate for the period. Conversely, several proposed name changes to pre-existing provinces were not implemented, as they just didn't seem necessary upon review.


“Show us the new map already!” I can hear you guys politely demanding. Fine, fine!


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Three new countries were added to the map as independent states. In the far north is the Prince-Bishopric of Trent, an Austrian country in control of an Italian province. To the west lies Saluzzo, nervously wedged between Savoy and France. In Romagna, Bologna is now an independent republic coveted by its neighbors.

Alongside these three countries are a couple new potential revolters. Padua and Verona now have cores on their respective provinces and can break away from Venice if the stars align, and Spoleto now exists as a core in Spoleto province, in case the Papal State's control of Central Italy ever starts to fall apart.

If we zoom in a little, more details reveal themselves.


northern italy.png


As the conversation linked at the start of this post highlights, Como originally was not considered, but after some discussion it became apparent that the inclusion of it (or at least something north of Milan) was called for. Thus, Como's complete contours now complement the comprehensive composition of that corner.

The creation of a separate Bologna province also prompted a revision of the remnant of old Romagna province; the old province's capital is now Ravenna, and Ravenna was taken by Venice in 1440 or 1441, so Romagna now starts off under Venetian rather than Papal control, although the Papacy does retain its core on the province. I'm sure this is fine and will definitely not be a source of tension between the two countries.


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Southern Italy was implemented essentially as described above. Sardinia received some attention and now includes Arborea as its own province on the west side of the island, but other Sardinian giudicati were not included primarily for the sake of balance- Sassari province in northern Sardinia has only 3/3/2 development as it is, and splitting that in two would create provinces with as little development as an Uzbek province in the Steppes.

Aside from the obvious mapwork, there is one other thing we added to southern Italy:

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And there you have it! Next week, we'll be talking about missions.
 
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From Wikipedia:

In 1401 Giovanni I Bentivoglio took power by a coup with the support of Milan but, having turned his back on them and allied with Florence, the Milanese marched on Bologna and had him killed the following year. In 1442 Hannibal I Bentivoglio, nephew of Giovanni, recovered Bologna from the Milanese, only to be assassinated in a conspiracy plotted by Pope Eugene IV three years later. But the signoria of the Bentivoglio family was then firmly established, and the power passed to his cousin Sante Bentivoglio who ruled until 1462, followed by Giovanni II. Giovanni II managed to resist the expansionist designs of Cesare Borgia for some time, but on 7 October 1506, Pope Julius II issued a bull deposing and excommunicating Bentivoglio and placing the city under interdict. When the papal troops, along with a contingent sent by Louis XII of France, marched against Bologna, Bentivoglio and his family fled. Julius II entered the city triumphantly on 10 November.

So, Bologna in the year 1444 wasn't a papal territories but an independent state, a duchy.
 
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Sorry, I wasn't specific. He allied them, and played them against each other to maintain Bologna's independence from them, not the Papacy.

As we are discussing game mechanics, how does Bologna successfully revolting from Milan translate into them becoming a disloyal vassal of the Papacy?

Everyone wanted Bologna. It was a rich city and it was placed in a fertile land and was a cross point between Florence, Milan and the Romagna cities subjects to the Pope.

The fact that Milan and Florence could conquer Bologna does not mean that Bologna was not subject to the Pope. It was, but it was still menaced by bigger neighbors, and the Pope was far away. Both Milan and Florence has more soldiers than the Pope and were closer, so they could effectively conquer Bologna. Only cunning diplomacy would have saved the city.
 
Well, we have maltese.
Paradox has said that their current policy is not to add one province cultures. The only reason Maltese exists is that they don't want to remove content added back when the policy was different.
 
So, Bologna in the year 1444 wasn't a papal territories but an independent state, a duchy.

Bologna a Duchy? LoL

Quoting from your previous Wikipedia:
“In 1401 the family destined to dominate the political life of Bologna emerged for the entire fifteenth century: the Bentivoglio family. Bologna was subject to papal sovereignty but at the same time the possession of the city was a primary objective of the Visconti family of Milan; when a balance was established between the various Italian states, the conditions were created to favor the stable and lasting success of the Bentivoglio. In 1461, when the political legacy of the family passed to the very young Giovanni II Bentivoglio, they succeeded in creating a semi-independent lordship over the city even if the ruler was always the Pope.“
 
I suggest for the papal States to introduce a system like the HRE in the political-military and religious questions.
Some italian province (pontifical vassals or with families historically connected with the Roman Catholic Church like Della Rovere in Senigallia or Medici in Florence, and others...) can have more influence in the curia for the election of the pope in some particular moment of history.
So if someone want control the pope election (with an increase of possibilty to elect a friendship pope) should focus to take these provinces or help them.
Colonna and Orsini were catholic roman families that create internal fight for the pope election (a rivality like York and Lancaster in England), so they can be vassals more connected with curia but also with more ambition to become themself the new pope (with promise for help them to the others factions).
Pope can create specific mission and request for provinces and vassals for create a strategic condition like the Borgia's time (eg: put your army to our pontifical service for take Cesena, Bologna, Rimini, Forlì and Imola, but first you should insert Malatesta as faction and insert more provinces in Romagna).
Insert Perugia like pope vassal not only Urbino.
Another problem is the absence of the Sforza family. There is Visconti family and the Ambrosian Republic, but not an event that can establish the Sforza family in Milan and after that a rivalry with France.
Historically Sforza family came from Romagna (Ravenna) and Pesaro, they had the control also of Forlì and Imola (with various branch of family), so they can create a system of alliance or a specific event (a coalition of force) to take the power in Milan.
Lodi is a province that should be added, because is an historical place of a peace (in 1454).
Camerino Duchy is under Da Varano family and like Bentivoglio in Bologna wanted to be independent State not under the Pope control.
Malatesta family was in rivalry with Da Varano family for the Romagna and Ascoli, Ancona, Fermo.
Malatesta was of course in rivalry also with Sforza for Pesaro, Ravenna and Imola.
Montecassino was de jure under the Kingdom of Naples but the control was much influenced from the Papal States with the Pope Paul II (so it's possible increase the rivalty among Pope and the Kingdom of the Naples for the control of the monastery and business of indulgence).
Contea di Tenda in Piedmont can be an independent province that can improve the rivalty among Dauphiné in France and Savoy for the control.
Saluzzo is under the Aleramici family and can be rival with Monferrato and Tenda.
Malaspina family control Massa and Carrara and can be a rival of Lucca.
Mantua is the place of catholic council in 1460 that decided a crusade against turks, the call for a crusade was symbolic and didn't happened, but in EU4 the things can change. ;-)
Mantua is connected with Monferrato and Nevers by marriage in 1536 and 1627 (for Gonzaga succession there was also a famous war), so i thinks that should be event, goal and mission in the tree respectively.
1000px-Grandi_Casate_Italiane_nel_1499.png
 
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Bologna a Duchy? LoL

Quoting from your previous Wikipedia:
“In 1401 the family destined to dominate the political life of Bologna emerged for the entire fifteenth century: the Bentivoglio family. Bologna was subject to papal sovereignty but at the same time the possession of the city was a primary objective of the Visconti family of Milan; when a balance was established between the various Italian states, the conditions were created to favor the stable and lasting success of the Bentivoglio. In 1461, when the political legacy of the family passed to the very young Giovanni II Bentivoglio, they succeeded in creating a semi-independent lordship over the city even if the ruler was always the Pope.“

Bentivoglio family created an alliance with Visconti family for take the control of Bologna, after that, they tried to create and independent duchy (like happened in Florence with Medici thanks the alliance with Milan) from Pope control.
There are a succession among various member of the same family in Bologna, so Bologna was a Duchy even if much weak respect the others duchies in the North Italy.
 
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For Milan under the Visconti family, it can be useful to put the mission to recreate their maximum expansion in North and Central Italy (maybe with the creation of Insubria region).
Massima_espansione_Viscontea.png
 
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Bentivoglio family created an alliance with Visconti family for take the control of Bologna, after that, they tried to create and independent duchy (like happen in Florence with Medici thanks the alliance with Milan) from Pope control.
There are a succession among various member of the same family in Bologna, so Bologna was a Duchy even if much weak respect the others duchies in the North Italy.

First of all, a Signoria is not a Duchy. Please stop saying that Bologna was a Duchy. Have you ever hear the title “Duca di Bologna”? No. Because it did not exist.

The Medici were never under the Pope, since Florence (and Tuscany) was in the HRE. There is no comparison between Florence and Bologna if not for the Signoria government.

It seems that you do not know Bologna’s history in detail. I do not know why you want to believe that Bologna was independent when it was a semi-Independent Signoria formally under the Pope’s authority. I am not saying Bologna was the Pope’s little pet. But negating history does not bring any benefit whatsoever.
 
First of all, a Signoria is not a Duchy. Please stop saying that Bologna was a Duchy. Have you ever hear the title “Duca di Bologna”? No. Because it did not exist.


Signoria is not a Duchy only if we confront the gerarchy of the power, but EU4 is not CK2 where this difference matter!.
My reference here is a simplification of the term for mean a family that control a province in the time.
I know that history is more complex, for example, Mantua was a Margravate that became Signoria and after that a Duchy, but Mantua become a Duchy under Friedrich II Gonzaga only with Emperor Charles V in 1530, so in 1444 is not formally a Duchy but a Signoria even if in the game appears as Duchy.
So we can suggest to Paradox to create an event or mission to transform the italian Signoria in Duchy (with expense or money for buy the title from Emperor or by military conquest).
 
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The Medici were never under the Pope, since Florence (and Tuscany) was in the HRE. There is no comparison between Florence and Bologna if not for the Signoria government.

Of course, Medici were never under the Pope control as province, but Medici family elected 3 important popes: Leo X, Clement VII, Leo XI.
Medici control Florence during the Republic and transform that in a Signoria.
Florence was a republic against the pope only during the Congiura dei Pazzi (Pope and Montefeltro participate as external supporter to the Pazzi family against Medici) and after the death of Lorenzo il Magnifico under the control of Savonarola, Soderini and in 1527.
I never played as Florence, so I don't know if there is some specific event o goal to transform the Florence Republic in a Signoria.
If there isn't, I can say that Paradox should fix and create in Florence an opposite mechanism like there is in Milan when appear the Ambrosian Republic (maybe asking the military intervention of Milan in the civil war for the form of government as condition for Medici take of power).
 
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@Ofaloaf A 5-minutes edit for the Lombardy region.

First, snip off Como and give it back to Milan - there's no reason for it to be a separate province, as it was separate from Milan for all of three years in the entire timeframe. Moreover, binding it to Ticino means it _has_ to leave Milan for Switzerland, which obviously makes no sense - Switzerland held and still holds Ticino without Como.

Second - and the one and only province addition - add Valtellina. Really, it's one of the most important provinces in the region. As presented here, it connects Tyrol to Milan without having to pass through the lands of Venice, which historically made it incredibly valuable for Austria (which is why everyone else eventually got it to stick with Switzerland and the Gray League instead, at least until Austria got the whole Lombardy-Venetia and made the point moot). A small pass between Graubunden and Valtellina, around the area of Tirano, is possible and probably useful for Switzerland.

Third, remove that silly north-south division. Go Ticino/Milano/Novara/Pavia/Cremona and Valtellina/Bergamo/Brescia/Mantova instead.
 
It seems that you do not know Bologna’s history in detail. I do not know why you want to believe that Bologna was independent when it was a semi-Independent Signoria formally under the Pope’s authority. I am not saying Bologna was the Pope’s little pet. But negating history does not bring any benefit whatsoever.

It was semi-independent and a weak Signoria, so is in an ambiguos political situation respect Ferrara and Mantua. Maybe Paradox want to create some event, mission or situation during the game with Bologna that can change the initial weak condition for create strong Signoria, Duchy or vassal. ;-)
 
Paradox has said that their current policy is not to add one province cultures. The only reason Maltese exists is that they don't want to remove content added back when the policy was different.
But different cultures enrich the game. For example eastern part of Trebizond should just be Laz, document even after Ottoman conquest shows Lazes were majority in respective Lazica/Lazistan region. I wish they reconsider this policy. Majority cultures deserve representation even if it hurts design.
 
Tried to improve it with barley no knowledge than use of an map from 1499.

Edit: I bet someone could do it better and with some good arguments.

Edit 2: I should have put Volterra in also.

Yes, I have write a post above that talk about these provinces in relation with Sforza and Malatesta families.
But the correct italian name of provinces in your map are Pesaro, Perugia and Senigallia. ;-)
 
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Well it's here and I can't say I'm surprised but I'm just incredibly disappointing, which seems excessive but I think there's good reason to feel exasperated after Valtellina was ignored again.

As already mentioned by several others, the valleys of Valtellina, Valchiavenna and Bormio were one of the most strategically important valleys of the 17th century. I don't think I have to go into detail the amount of times the region has changed hands, the thousands of troops that pass through the region, the most powerful nations in Europe vying for control of it or the feuding religious dimensions of the region, Paradox should know this, history is their business and the clashes between Milan, the Grey Leagues, the Pope, the Habsurgs, France and Napoleon should be self-evident. Even from a completely gameplay perspective a province to represent the Valtellina valley would make a natural direct point of passage between Habsburg Italy and Austria and the province would be more than large enough to be clickable and interactable for the player.

I just want to know the thinking behind why one of the most contested and valued territories in early-Modern European history would not deserve a province than what is the requirement? Because that's a big question a lot of us are asking @Ofaloaf @Caligula Caesar @DDRJake

820px-Geschichte_Graubuenden.png

As I read it, all that you want changed is that Como can reach the westernmost Three Leagues province, am I right? Making Lombardy and Tirol directly border each other would require some seriously weird map pyrotechnics which simply would not be right.
 
It was semi-independent and a weak Signoria, so is in an ambiguos political situation respect Ferrara and Mantua. Maybe Paradox want to create some event, mission or situation during the game with Bologna that can change the initial weak condition for create strong Signoria, Duchy or vassal. ;-)

Ferrara was different, because it was also a Marquisate of the HRE and then a Duchy so the Papal Control was really minimal and there were no interferences except from the Devolution of Ferrara.

Mantua was different, since was nevertheless under control of the apple and was in the HRE so it must be independent (but in the HRE).

The Signoria Government does not exists. In a expansion that focuses on Europe and catholicism a fine addition would be the Signoria government type (for Florence, Bologna and maybe Perugia if you want a good job). Right now the most similar thing is the Republican Despotism which is still too different.

I have an entire thread about Central Italy and Romagna in my description, with provinces, nation, new governments, events and mechanics. Since this discussion is almost saturated, I suggest you to comment that thread so we could prolong the conversation if you want.

On the other hand, maybe a mission tree for Bologna’s in which a branch rewards you with 100% liberty desire and other bonuses when you break free could be easily done. Even 5 Missions could do the trick.
 
Another place where it needs change its aspect is southern Tuscany region.
We need more provinces: Signoria of Piombino under Appiani family (inside HRE), County of Pitigliano under Orsini family (vassal of Pope), Duchy of Castro under Farnese family (vassal of Pope).
Repubblica_di_Siena_e_Principato_di_Piombino_tra_XV_e_XVI_secolo.png
 
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The existence of Ravenna as venician territory is historically accurate, but reduce the possible results of the game, because Venice is already strong faction and can frustrate every possible grow of a possible new strong State among Papal States, Venice and Milan (Bologna, Mantua, Lucca or Ferrara as candidates).
I think that renaming the province Rimini under Malatesta family can create more balance and variety during the game and reproduce the historical rivality against Urbino under Montefeltro for the control of Romagna.
Maybe it's possible create Rimini as vassal province rebel of Venice.
1200px-Repubblica_Venezia_espansione_in_Terraferma.png
 
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Part of this reminds me of an old axiom I picked up from a completely unrelated game developer.

"Any job worth doing is worth doing until it is a good enough. Anything beyond that is wasted time and energy that should be spent on other projects."

The reason he came up with that, is because he had spent 5 years trying to "perfect" a game that he was working on. Releasing nothing for it when he was supposed to be on a regular update schedule. There was always something to tinker with. Some particular historical fine point he wanted to consider. Some unique little rule he wanted to work in. The game rebalanced around a possible use of this incredibly niche ability. Etc. He was spending thousands of hours putting in time and effort on a feature that wouldn't show up on the vast majority of runs, and when it did would seldom have impact on those runs.

Eventually he had to learn when to stop, and when was good enough.

Because some of these suggestions are in that tone. Things that would require a lot of work, for not a lot of impact. Unique government forms for a handful of provinces. Internal political strife for a region that is (at least in most games I play) has the AI just eating them entirely before the game is half over even without the handicaps of that political instability, etc (usually between Naples and Austria).

Something like the Holy Roman Empire is a high impact region. It's centrally located in a position to be in contact with several major powers (Danmark, England, France, Spain, Poland, Russia, the Ottomans) at various points in the game. Tweaks there will have a cascading effect on the game in general because a good number of the major players in the game end up interacting with it at least low key on some level. League War, Dutch Indepedance, control of Northern European Trade, slowing down reckless expansion by its interconnected hornet's nest of alliances and protections, etc.

While Italy is far less impactful in the game. Outside of Austria (And the Ottomans with the outlying provinces of Genoa and Venice, and Spain if they secure Naples as part of the Iberian wedding, both of which are corner cases in their way, or a player based France, Ottomans, Russia, etc, who has already cleaved through the Holy Roman Empire and Italy just becomes an easy bonus conquest in its wake of out of control expansion) it just doesn't interact with a lot of major powers. Kind of a sad but true bit when I look at it from the long view. Excessive hours sunk into giving highly special attention to Italy just doesn't seem like good return on investment (and probably why this Developer Diary looks the way it does compared to the Holy Roman Empire ones).

And likely won't be, all considered due to the geography and trade flow (where Genoa and Venice tend to get cut off by Trade Company Empires of both the AI and the players steering around the Horn of Africa rather than through the Middle East, reducing the value of Italy as an end node compared to Seville or the English Channel. I haven't seen Global Trade for example spawn in Italy since the Trade Company buffs because they're never close to the richest nodes compared to Seville and the English Channel now).

Just, how a lot of these look like. That it'd be neat if they considered this detail of history, that detail of history, this special government form, this unique case, etc. But what's the long term impact? What other things would be sacrificed trying to perfect a region that will seldom matter, if we're honest? I mean stepping away from personal interests in the region and such. Just like I have to step away from the fact that despite my own historical interest in the region... they're never going to add any more Native American tribes than Chinook, Salish, and Haida to the Cascadia region. It's just not important. Colonizers don't get there until about nearly 1700 most games. It's a low value territory in general with most provinces about 4 Development at start. And by the time Colonizing Powers come in contact with them the advantage against reforming One Province Natives is overwhelming and the Colonial Game in the new world has been sewn up between what two or three powers have hashed it out as the dominant New World Colonizers. Even though there's a lot they could do with the region, it just doesn't matter in the long view.