EU4 - Development Diary - 24th of March 2020

[Lightwell]

This reminds me of a good joke:

Two men considering a religious vocation were having a conversation. “What is similar about the Jesuit and Dominican Orders? ” the one asked.

The second replied, “Well, they were both founded by Spaniards — St. Dominic for the Dominicans, and St. Ignatius of Loyola for the Jesuits. They were also both founded to combat heresy — the Dominicans to fight the Albigensians, and the Jesuits to fight the Protestants.”

“What is different about the Jesuit and Dominican Orders?”

“Met any Albigensians lately?”

Does anyone else find it difficult to remember what denomination they belong to?

I can never remember if I'm an infralapsarian Calvinist, or a Supralapsarian Calvinist. I might've even accidentally identified as a Sublapsarian Calvinist at one point, embarrassing as it sounds.

 

[Murrax9]

Regardless of the status of mysticism within Catholicism, the idea of mysticism in opposition to a doctrine that literlaly means 'faith alone' is a non sequiter. Mystics are all about embracing faith as the main means of knowledge.



Agreed 100%. The terminology is about as accurate as would be expected from a cursory overview of Catholicism within a Protestant cultural context (something even many Catholics living in culturally Protestant countries struggle with).

@Johan or @Groogy Would you be open to considering changing some of the localization? The fundamental mechanics sound pretty good (I particularly like the general contrast of getting more out of true faith provinces or a smaller amount from all provinces), but the terms themselves could use a lot of work.

First Concession:
Secret Confessions really sounds redundant, as the Seal of Confession has been a fundamental aspect of Catholicism since, at least, the 13th century and most likely since the earliest days of the Church.

Second Concession:
As mentioned before, it isn't the translation of the Bible itself that was the problem for the Church, but unauthorized translations. Perhaps renaming it something along the lines of 'authorized translations' or something. Or, as the conciliatory alternative to 'Roman Catechism,' perhaps something vague like 'Ecumenical Catechism.'
EDIT: another option would be to divide it by the language of the Mass, rather than of the Bible. After all, Catholic Masses were conducted in primarily in Latin well after the Reformation, even when authorized translated Bibles became common for Catholics. So, it could be "Catholic Mass/Vernacular Mass" as an option.

Third Concession:
I'd be surprised if the Church gave ground on clerical celibacy, but there's nothing fundamentally off about the naming here, so no real complaints. There's probably a better name, but its not inherently bad.

Fourth Concession:
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church (Catholic Magisterium) is the Church's authority to interpret the Word of God. This is a far better contrast to Sola Fide, which is not something the Church would ever embrace, as it is absolutely contrary to Catholic Dogma, which does not change (Doctrine can change, but Dogma cannot).

Finally, I think there could be some further Concessions to add to the list, perhaps something around the original hot button issues like Indulgences, but that would be an actual mechanical proposal, and I'm just concerned about the terminology used.

Exactly, the translation of the Bible really wasn't an issue at all. One of the first English translations came from the Catholic Church which has a New Testament older than the KJV, it's called the Douay Rheims. There were many other examples of vernacular bibles as well even before the Reformation like the Prague Bible in Czech. I agree with all of your points here, I really hope Paradox sees them.

 

[Murrax9]

On another note, it's looking like Paradox might have taken some ideas from my original post that I made 1 year ago in my signature (Or just likely came up with the same ideas as me but I want to feel like I did something) I asked for many of the things they added like the Council of Trent so, thank you Paradox! I'm not saying I predicted this, but I predicted this.

 

[EasternTiger]

The translation of the Bible really wasn't an issue at all. The first English translation of the Bible came from the Catholic Church, the Douay Rheims, which has a New Testament which is 30 years older than the KJV's. I agree with all of your points here, I really hope Paradox sees them.

That's not true, the Douay Rheims is older than the King James, but there were other (Protestant) English translations before then. Translations such as the Matthew Bible (1537) and the Great Bible (1539) existed, which were based on incomplete translations by the martyred English Protestant, William Tyndale. There was also the Geneva Bible which also predated the Douay Rheims.

 

[Murrax9]

That's not true, the Douay Rheims is older than the King James, but there were other (Protestant) English translations before then. Translations such as the Matthew Bible (1537) and the Great Bible (1539) existed, which were based on incomplete translations by the martyred English Protestant, William Tyndale. There was also the Geneva Bible which also predated the Douay Rheims.

For some reason I thought the Geneva Bible was written in Swiss and I must admit I have never heard of the Matthew Bible. I knew Tyndale translated part of the Bible, but had no idea a full translation was later made. I apologize for posting misinformation, I will edit my comment.

 

[DominusNovus]

On that subject, with the current Concessions, what would be the "historic" route to take? It is easy to see what some cannot be (e.g. taking "Sole Fide" would not be historical), but there should be a historic path to take.

Presumably harsh on each step.

 

[FleetingRain]

So is it Papal Bulls or Golden Bulls? Game shows one thing, DD calls it another.

 

[Murrax9]

The interaction is fine but you CANNOT call it an Ecumenical Council. It's inaccurate and you are going to risk potentially unnecessarily offending people. There have only been 21 Ecumenical Councils in the 2000 year history of Christianity (the Council of Trent being one of them) - these are massive meetings of all bishops to debate doctrine - they are the highest authority in the Church, and not something done lightly (nor do they in any way involve a cash transfer...).

The design is great, but PLEASE rename it.

Who would this be offending? Catholics? Orthodox? The Orthodox would be offended by you calling the Council of Trent an Ecumenical Council because they only recognize 7 as being true Ecumenical Councils! It's a historical term and they can't cater to one group or another. The Council of Trent is an Ecumenical Council according to the Catholic Church and so in the game, it should be considered an Ecumenical Council by the Catholic Church. I'm a traditional Catholic who is usually very sensitive about media falsely representing the faith and I think they should take out those silly cash transfer things too and all these mentions of "siphoning money" which even an Orthodox might cringe at but I don't find using a word offensive at all because everyone should take everything in this video game with a grain of salt. Not only is it alternate history but it's a video game. No, the reformation isn't as simple as EU4 makes it out to be. No, the Catholic Church isn't as simple as EU4 makes it seem and no, being a Calvinist in real life does not give you trade efficiency irl. If people are changing their religious beliefs irl because of what EU4 says they should seriously take a second look at themselves. Let's criticize the functions of the mechanic and the descriptions, not the name "Ecumenical Council" but maybe that's what you meant, if so then we agree. But let's not be puritanical by a game using a historical term for something occurring in an alternate history game. If I misunderstood you please correct me.

 

[Lightwell]

and no, being a Calvinist in real life does not give you trade efficiency irl

Prove it.

 

[Charlemagne2020]

How will the AI choose whether to pick a harsh concession or a conciliatory concession?

Also, these are great changes, but will these affect non-European Catholics? If not, is there any planned content for them?

 

[korawit13]

@FleetingRain, you are right. Good catch on the mistake.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_bull
Golden bull uses by HRE emperors.
Papal bull uses by the pope.
It is fun that we here in the forum to recreate Christian schism by presenting different versions of Bibles.
Luckily, we do not reenact massacres or book burning in the forum. Hypocrite all around to worldly power-hunger leaders. Sad one person can ruin so many lives.

 

[Sete]

TIL:
Papal Bull 1551
Super specula militantis Ecclesiae:

Ended the status of Funchal as the largest diocese in the world, creating new bishoprics throughout the Portuguese Empire at Salvador &c.

 

[MoorishBro]

All religion groups should get this kind of make over, it certainly would uplift the game by a lot

 

[Sandtrolden]

is this dlc going to be released?

 

[love sweden]

is this dlc going to be released?

Would be very strange to spend a entire year on a DLC just to not release it.

 

[TinWiz]

Ecumenical Council
The Ecumenical Council is a way for the Papal Controller to siphon their own money into the Curia Coffers to increase their influence to become the next Papal Controller.

This is disappointing and cynical. When I started reading I thought this might actually be something like the title suggests, which would be really neat, but it seems like a misappropriated paste-on with no historical understanding. Do you mean some sort of illicit synod or corrupt plenary council? That might make a bit of sense, where some country sends its bishops to influence the church through corrupt means. As described it's neither ecumenical nor a valid council.

I noticed some other comments pointing out that the way the Catholic Church works in this game is like a Lutheran caricature, with less actual history.

 

[RichardOlcese]

The issue about the Ecumenical Council is certainly a controversial one. I'd even say it's en ecumenical matter. Yes. My position about it includes girls, feck, and drink. Mostly drink! DrInK! DRIIINK!!!

 

[korawit13]

@TinWiz, I agree if It is a religious meeting which does not take a day to reach an agreement and this threat to their power. I just learned now the autocrat-style leaders just giving up their power want someone to challenge them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_council#First_seven_ecumenical_councils

Council of Basel, Ferrara and Florence (1431–1445) addressed church reform and reunion with the Eastern Churches but split into two parties. The fathers remaining at Basel became the apogee of conciliarism. The fathers at Florence achieved union with various Eastern Churches and temporarily with the Eastern Orthodox Church.

I think it would be great for Paradox devs to create an ecumenical council system that allows the different sects to improve the relationship or write to papers to attack another sect. [That happens history check it out yourself. [Monarchs use swords and clergymen use pens.] Sorry if some feel offense. Sometimes, history is just history, not narrative or opinion that we do not want to hear or believe. When history takes sides, we are all in trouble. Don't you think?

 

[Scorpene]

Forgive me if I've missed it from some other Dev Diary, I only started following them a month or two ago, but it seems rather surprising to me that I don't see any other mechanics for Crusades here other than allowing them to be used past the point where they're turned off by the Age change. It especially seems like they should have some way to fund any ongoing Crusades using the Curia Coffers or some other more in depth mechanics. In general, Crusades tend to be pretty useless for most countries and are instantly forgotten about, when really they should be incredibly important, including ones against, say, the Hussites which did have to defend themselves against Crusades historically, not long before the start date of EUIV.

That's my opinion too. I hoped a lot from Emperor concerning crusades (regarding the Ottomans in Balkan mainly, which was very historical), and because we have crusader states and the Kingdom of Jerusalem I had a lot of hopes.... But once more, it seems that was all for nothing.

 

[TinWiz]

Sometimes, history is just history, not narrative or opinion that we do not want to hear or believe. When history takes sides, we are all in trouble. Don't you think?

Yes, and even if they wanted to go full-bore (or wild boar) Lutheran caricature, that's their artistic licence. That could be funny. Just, make it thematically substantial and have some logical connection with actual history.