The holy Swedish month of July is over and our workforce has been steadily trickling back into the office, resigned to the fact that sunlight is a luxury we won't be seeing for another 11 months. With that lovely thought in mind, let's return to our weekly dev diaries and talk about a new feature for our upcoming yet unrevealed expansion for Europa Universalis IV: Coptic Holy Sites.

Copts have had a rough time. Way back in EU's history they were simply represented as the Orthodox faith before getting their own religion within the Christian group, but even then they lacked their own flavour, destined to be left in the Horn of Africa and Armenia with hungry neighbours and their Patriarch being locked up and bullied in Mamluk-held Alexandria.

Well no longer! A feature in the upcoming DLC is a Holy Sites system unique for Coptic nations. Any nation which follows the Coptic faith will have access to a screen showing their Holy Sites. There are 5 in total, detailed with who is currently controlling them and the faith followed by the province. It is the Copts' holy mission to see these restored to Coptic control.

As shown above, Armenia (Who I released&played as from QQ) can open their Coptic menu and see the state of their Holy Sites. If a Holy Site is held by any Coptic nation and the province itself follows the One True Faith™ then all Coptic nations will be granted a blessing from the Patriarch. You are able to pick from the 5 available blessings but be sure that you or your Coptic friends hold onto your possessions tightly, as losing ownership of a Holy Site to a nation of another faith will lose you the blessing until it is returned to Coptic hands.

In 1444 the only Holy site in control of the Copts is Aksum, in the far north of Ethiopia. This will allow all existing Coptic nations to pick one blessing of their choice from the above list.

Legitimize Government: +0.5 Legitimacy
Encourage Wariors of the Faith: +10% manpower recovery
Send Monks to Establish Monasteries: +1.5% missionary strength
Promote Territorial Rights: -10% Core creation Cost
Will of the Martyrs: +5% discipline

Unlike other religious mechanics, the Coptic Holy Sites will collectively make all followers of that religion stronger. It makes no difference in the available Blessings if your nation or another Coptic nation holds the Holy Sites. Should the Copts fight back from their perilous position in 1444 and secure their Holy Sites, they will be that much stronger. Co-operate with other Coptic nations and share the Patriarch's blessings

Alongside the Holy sites and Patriarch Blessings, Copts will have a healthy dose of unique flavour events and missions to drive their liberation of the Holy Sites. Coptic Holy Sites will be a paid feature in the upcoming DLC, which will be released alongside the free 1.18 patch.

Next week I'll pass the reins back to Johan, as we return to see what changes have been going on in the Throne Room

 

[Dakka]

Coptic looks like a really strong choice now if you're in a position to take all those sites early. Might be a bit OP compared to other Christian options (and the other Christian options are already better than most non-Christians), but I suppose it's balanced by the fact that the Copts start out weak and isolated from other Christians (limiting their opportunities for PU games, for instance).

I'm looking at it the same way as Nahuatl. The religion is super powerful when finally reformed, but frankly if you're able to do it, you deserve all the bonuses it comes with

 

[Incompetent]

I'm looking at it the same way as Nahuatl. The religion is super powerful when finally reformed, but frankly if you're able to do it, you deserve all the bonuses it comes with

There's a HUGE gulf between the kind of disadvantage New Worlders start with and what Ethiopia starts with. (This may change somewhat in 1.18 with the tech overhaul, but I wouldn't count on it - New World countries have been fettered by design.) In addition, the New World religious reforms have special requirements and cause some kind of trauma to your country in the short term, whereas conquering a bunch of provinces and converting them is something everyone does anyway to increase their power base.

As for how strong you are once you get there, Reformed Nahuatl is decent enough in terms of base bonuses, but in measuring the strength of Coptic, you have to consider on top of that all the decisions and triggered mods that Christians get, plus the ability to get PUs (and even become HREmperor, although that would be an ambitious goal indeed for Ethiopia).

There's also the possibility of a pre-existing major finding a way to go Coptic - Coptomans anyone? Becoming (Reformed) Nahuatl if you don't start as a New Worlder is basically impossible.

 

[zeredek]

Is legitimize government also RT/Devotion/Horde unity?

I don't know about RT or Horde Unity, but the modifier uses the Devotion icon so that's p much guaranteed

 

[Grand Historian]

There's a HUGE gulf between the kind of disadvantage New Worlders start with and what Ethiopia starts with.

You mean like the ones they had historically?

 

[Incompetent]

You mean like the ones they had historically?

Sort of. Aside from the tech penalty (which is likely to change in 1.18, at least in terms of how it works), the disadvantages they have in-game don't correspond all that well to the real-life disadvantages, but the overall effect on power is not far off.

My point is that Reformed Native American religions are really hard to benefit from, so they can get big bonuses without being OP, whereas the new Coptic looks very easy to get going and simply feeds more rewards into a typical Middle East blobbing game.

 

[saegoto]

maybe instead of +10% manpower recovery speed make +20% manpower pool? protestants and catholics already have this.

 

[ahyangyi]

Guess Coptic Ottomans will be the new default WC route.

I'm delighted with coptics being taken care though. I guess I could play an Armenia game then. Restoring Rome with Coptic Armenia sounds weirdly fun.

 

[raikaria]

Sort of. Aside from the tech penalty (which is likely to change in 1.18, at least in terms of how it works), the disadvantages they have in-game don't correspond all that well to the real-life disadvantages, but the overall effect on power is not far off.

My point is that Reformed Native American religions are really hard to benefit from, so they can get big bonuses without being OP, whereas the new Coptic looks very easy to get going and simply feeds more rewards into a typical Middle East blobbing game.

Unless there are specific changes for New World which haven't been elaborated on yet; New World starts in 1444 with a 50% tech malus; along with Sub-Sahara and Hordes.

Even for the groups covered in El Dorado; that's 1/3 of the penalty they had to pay before. Combine with the 'instant reform if you have 16 tech levels' thing and New World is going to be laughably easy compared to now.

On the other hand; Hordes will be 50% tech down compared to all their neighbours; which is a nerf to all Hordes; ESPECIALLY the Chinese ones. With Ming being far more aggressive in the current patch; if that continues the Manchurians are going to be virtually unplayable unless Ming explodes in the first 20 years. Even a united Manchria cannot 1v1 Ming as it is with only a 15% tech disadvantage. With 50% in 1444? No chance.

 

[hajutze]

Technically 25% until Manchu fills up a bit of NIs.

 

[Angeleyed]

Assyrian Christians, much like Anatolia's population of Greeks, had been mostly massacred due to Timur's conquests - I doubt any of the provinces in game can reasonably have them as a majority, but I'll go ahead and ask @dharper for his input on this.



Same as the above, though I don't think they ever reached a majority to begin with.

Greeks were the majority in Anatolia for at least 300 more years after game starts. The game might show Turkish culture, but that's just for balancing.

Also, why aren't Constantinoples and Rome holy sites of the eastern christians?

 

[Wagonlitz]

Greeks were the majority in Anatolia for at least 300 more years after game starts. The game might show Turkish culture, but that's just for balancing.

Also, why aren't Constantinoples and Rome holy sites of the eastern christians?

I thought most Greeks had been assimilated---or rather had converted to Islam and hence essentially became Turks.
@Chamboozer do you know something about the amount of Greeks in Anatolia in the game period?

 

[Angeleyed]

I thought most Greeks had been assimilated---or rather had converted to Islam and hence essentially became Turks.
@Chamboozer do you know something about the amount of Greeks in Anatolia in the game period?

There was little to no assimilation of Greeks in the Ottoman Empire, since
1rst Sultans didn't care
2nd Christianity was allowed (The Sultan made Patriarch of Constantinoples his vassal)
3rd Greeks were more than the Turks...
4th Greeks were much richer (there are accounts of Greek merchants earning more than western european Monarchs)
5th Most of the land never changed hands so Greeks were the landlords too
6th Greek language was useful so wasn't banned
7th Greeks were more educated (even women)

and these are just a few of the reasons

Assimilation of Greeks was attempted during the Greek revolution, but it ended up in a bloodshed and the whole world intervened.
True assimilation began in the 20th century when Turkey was lead by the people and not by a Sultan.

Islam in Turkey was (is?) not the same as in other countries.
When Arabs conquered Greek lands they forced people to convert. The Turks cooperated with the people they conquered. (Greeks built the boats for the Turks to cross the straits etc)

 

[Res_Ipsa]

Coptic Ottomans stronk!! Dat core creation cost, Dat manpower recovery speed, Dat discipline. :-D

Damn, looks like everyone is picking up on that. Shhhhhhh . . . I want one good Copttoman playthrough before it gets nerfed!

And if we can still become HRE Emperor if there is Peace after league wars, and pass the third reform, tack on another 10% core creation reduction. I'm drooling. The hard choice--do I pass up a second diplo slot or fourth military slot so I can get Admin/Religious/Humanist combo for maximum domination?

 

[Chamboozer]

Greeks were the majority in Anatolia for at least 300 more years after game starts.

No

@Chamboozer do you know something about the amount of Greeks in Anatolia in the game period?

Muslims appear to have been the overwhelming majority in all of western Anatolia, the Greek population which one finds on 20th century maps was a result of migration to those coastal regions during the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

 

[Angeleyed]

I won't even comment an answer "No". obvious troll is obviously obvious

Muslims appear to have been the overwhelming majority in all of western Anatolia

Let me help you. Greek is a culture and Islam is a religion. (your world just came crashing down)
There can be muslim Greeks and christian Turks.

the Greek population which one finds on 20th century maps was a result of migration to those coastal regions during the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

Yes these bastards also later migrated to the Balkans only to settle and find a new nation naming it Greece. The poor native Turkish population ran for their lives.....
Are you on drugs or something?

You are worse than that American guy in the ck2 dev diary questioning if we had cats in Europe during the middle ages.

Ah i got it now. The millions of Greeks expelled from Anatolia in 20th century (in papers signed by Turkish officials) are also a result of a mistake and the papers stating the numbers misunderstood tourists with Greeks.

 

[Chamboozer]

I won't even comment an answer "No". obvious troll is obviously obvious

Yep. Troll is what I am.

Let me help you. Greek is a culture and Islam is a religion. (your world just came crashing down)
There can be muslim Greeks and christian Turks.

Not in the fifteenth century, generally speaking. Greeks who converted to Islam in Anatolia quickly adopted the Turkish language. The only place which ever developed a significant Greek-speaking Muslim community was Crete, after its conquest in the seventeenth century.

Yes these bastards also later migrated to the Balkans only to settle and find a new nation naming it Greece. The poor native Turkish population ran for their lives.....
Are you on drugs or something?

No, I just know a thing or two about the history of this area. And have access to Ottoman taxation surveys from the sixteenth century. And a few scholarly studies covering the Izmir region. It's very well established that the Greek population in western Anatolia was negligible during most of the early modern period, even in Izmir. It only became a majority Greek city again much later.

Ah i got it now. The millions of Greeks expelled from Anatolia in 20th century (in papers signed by Turkish officials) are also a result of a mistake and the papers stating the numbers misunderstood tourists with Greeks.

There were plenty of Greeks in Anatolia by the beginning of the twentieth century. It's just that 400 years earlier their ancestors were living on the Aegean Islands, not the mainland.

 

[Jer.Kaff van Hiderman]

So, the new expasion has been named after THRONE ROOM?

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

You are worse than that American guy in the ck2 dev diary questioning if we had cats in Europe during the middle ages.

Please, give me the link to those posts!

EDIT: Oh, it's just at the beginning of the DD's reactions: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-diary-17-crusader-cats.960813/#post-21654653

 

[Blackhood]

@Angeleyed
~ There is no need to be upset. ~

 

[DavidRoyman]

When you don't have anything historical to represent, you represent what it would be in an alternative history. Thus, I believe this mechanic represents the Coptic morale boost that comes with them turning from a powerless underdog to a major Christian denomination.

I really like this. We're playing a big "what if" game here and this POV on the feature is fun.