EU4 - Development Diary - 9th of October 2018

[Thrudgelmir2333]

I don't even know where to start with this.

In any case, if what you´re trying to explain is that Felipe II never used the title of king of Spain before he became king of Portugal, and that after becoming king of Portugal he started using king of Spain which included all of the iberian kingdoms, I'm very sorry to tell you that it's wrong, it didn't happen that way and I completely understand why the Portuguese guys oppose it. It's not historical, it's not realistic, it didn't happen that way.

And it's not like it stopped calling itself Spain after Portugal left the union, too XD

 

[BalticM]

Suggestion on Extremadura split.

North - Plasencia (Clergy)
Center - Trujillo (Nobility)
South - Badajoz (Fort)

Tagus and Guadiana rivers to make borders between those 3 acc. this map:


Those 3 are actually historical geographical divisions of Extremadura!

Spoiler

Of the many and varied regions of modern Spain, Extremadura is the largest, comprising two provinces—Cáceres and Badajoz—that only recently, with some effort, have begun the process of constructing a shared sense of identity. In fact the Extremadura of the past encompassed several regions, defined at least partially geographically. The historical experience of these regions from ancient until quite recent times varied considerably. Badajoz, the southernmost of the two modern provinces, historically was oriented toward Andalusia to the south and more directly affected by its proximity to Portugal to the west than was Cáceres; following the reconquest most of this southern half of Extremadura came under the sway of the powerful military Order of Santiago.
Cáceres to the north, however, was more closely tied to Castile and less homogeneous. This northern province—once known as Alta Extremadura—divides into at least two subregions. In the north lies a green, agriculturally prosperous region that includes the Vera and other valleys of the Sierra de Gredos. Plasencia has long been the main urban center for this area, and Yuste, the monastery to which Charles V retired in the 1550s, is located in the Vera. Appended to this fertile area are the barren and impoverished Hurdes, lying south of Ciudad Rodrigo, reputedly an isolated enclave of morisco settlement. The second, and larger, subregion of Alta Extremadura lies between the Tajo River to the north and the Guadiana to the south. It is a dry plateau, hilly and mountainous in parts, generally more suited to stockraising than intensive agriculture. Historical developments in some ways divided even this wide tableland. After the reconquest the western part (including Alcántara, Albuquerque, and Valencia) became the stronghold of another important military order, Alcántara, whereas the eastern part of the province, the Sierra de Guadalupe, was remote, relatively isolated from the rest, and during the late Middle Ages increasingly dominated by the wealthy and royally favored monastery of Guadalupe.
The subregion formed by the cities of Cáceres and Trujillo and their contiguous districts is a coherent geographical entity that for some observers epitomizes the conjunction of environmental and human factors that differentiate Extremadura from the regions to the north and south and imbue it with a distinctive character of its own. This central subregion, less directly influenced by Castile and León than Plasencia and less tied to Andalusia than Badajoz, was above all a pastoral region, with vines and olives cultivated in the hilly and mountainous areas and pigs fattened in the woodlands of the hills. Cáceres and Trujillo, with their dramatic hilltop silhouettes, offer among the finest examples in all of Extremadura of the fortified towns and castles of the Moorish and postreconquest periods and the results of the fifteenth- and sixteenth-century boom in private, public, and ecclesiastic construction.
Despite the physical and cultural homogeneity of the Cáceres-Trujillo subregion, however, historical experience—as almost everywhere in the Iberian peninsula—again generated differences. León claimed Cáceres and Castile Trujillo after the reconquest of the early thirteenth century, although both towns received extensive jurisdictions and similar privileges aimed at encouraging resettlement of the area. Cáceres became part of the diocese of Coria, whereas Trujillo was included in what would be the much wealthier bishopric of Plasencia. And though the original districts of both cities were very large, subsequent readjustments and changes left Trujillo far more populous and wealthy.

Central province named after Trujillo, not Caceres as it seems Trujillo was superior to Caceres in all aspects before 18th century. Whole Extremadura division was under Trujillo name afterall.

Spoiler

In the sixteenth century Cáceres and Trujillo were small cities whose populations probably increased steadily over the course of the century. With about 6500 inhabitants at midcentury, Cáceres was somewhat smaller than Trujillo, which possibly had a population of around 8000 at that time the towns of Cáceres's jurisdiction equaled or slightly exceeded the number of residents in the city proper, and the population of Trujillo's larger district probably outnumbered that of the city. Thus these towns were not very large, and the major cities of Castile easily eclipsed all the extremeño cities in size. In 1561 Burgos and Segovia had populations of around 22,000, Valladolid 33,000, and Toledo 60,000; Seville's population rose to 100,000 or more by the century's close. Nonetheless in a sparsely populated region whose inhabitants were concentrated in relatively few settlements, Cáceres and Trujillo in every sense were important urban centers, regardless of whether they were called "villa" (Cáceres) or "ciudad" (Trujillo). They dominated their districts and served as centers for industry and commerce, political and religious institutions. A corregidor, the crown's representative, presided over the city council of each; the councils, controlled by the powerful local nobility, entered into and regulated many aspects of local life, from setting bread and wheat prices to organizing religious processions to recruiting military levies. The cities had a number of parishes, whereas most villages and small towns had but one.
Self-purchase and a rash of sales of villages to nobles by the crown beginning in the 1550s left Trujillo with only fifteen towns under its jurisdiction in the latesixteenth century; the city still held twice the number of towns controlled by Cáceres but far fewer than the twenty-five or more it once had.

Source

 

[regne_valencia]

Spain is an incomplete nation,because Portugal is out,since Portugal get independence is wrong continue calling Spain to this country,the name "España" comes from "Hispania" ,Hispania was all the territory off the peninsula in times of roman empire.I think Portugal+Castille+Aragon+Navarra must be called Spain,like it was since 1580 until 1640

Tommassi is right when ha talks about Felipe II,the king who tried the integration off all spanish kingdoms was Felipe IV with the "union the armas",he failed,maybe if he didnt failed then it will create a country called Spain with all kingdoms 100% integrated

Felipe II didnt have 100% integrated off all his kingdoms and when he needs money or men he had to deal with this kingdoms in the courts

Edit:I will like to see an option called Reforma conde-duque olivares: "Union de armas"-If you do you have lot off unrest for many years,if you can manage it,then all kingdoms are integrated and you have more manpower,get more money fromn taxes,lower autonomy etc...

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

I would like to see some events about jews, moriscos, mudéjares. It doesn't feel like Spain without some those. I know we already have the conversion of Granada but I thought maybe something separate on a bigger scale

 

[InsidePRL]

Hello.
I am sorry for my English, I hope I will be understood.
Will the new Spanish provinces be translated into Arabic when playing Granada in update 1.29?
e.g
Málaga - arab. Mālaqah
Valencia - arab. Balansia

 

[navaluiki]

Suggestion on Extremadura split.

North - Plasencia (Clergy)
Center - Trujillo (Nobility)
South - Badajoz (Fort)

Tagus and Guadiana rivers to make borders between those 3 acc. this map:
View attachment 410276

Those 3 are actually historical geographical divisions of Extremadura!

Spoiler

Of the many and varied regions of modern Spain, Extremadura is the largest, comprising two provinces—Cáceres and Badajoz—that only recently, with some effort, have begun the process of constructing a shared sense of identity. In fact the Extremadura of the past encompassed several regions, defined at least partially geographically. The historical experience of these regions from ancient until quite recent times varied considerably. Badajoz, the southernmost of the two modern provinces, historically was oriented toward Andalusia to the south and more directly affected by its proximity to Portugal to the west than was Cáceres; following the reconquest most of this southern half of Extremadura came under the sway of the powerful military Order of Santiago.
Cáceres to the north, however, was more closely tied to Castile and less homogeneous. This northern province—once known as Alta Extremadura—divides into at least two subregions. In the north lies a green, agriculturally prosperous region that includes the Vera and other valleys of the Sierra de Gredos. Plasencia has long been the main urban center for this area, and Yuste, the monastery to which Charles V retired in the 1550s, is located in the Vera. Appended to this fertile area are the barren and impoverished Hurdes, lying south of Ciudad Rodrigo, reputedly an isolated enclave of morisco settlement. The second, and larger, subregion of Alta Extremadura lies between the Tajo River to the north and the Guadiana to the south. It is a dry plateau, hilly and mountainous in parts, generally more suited to stockraising than intensive agriculture. Historical developments in some ways divided even this wide tableland. After the reconquest the western part (including Alcántara, Albuquerque, and Valencia) became the stronghold of another important military order, Alcántara, whereas the eastern part of the province, the Sierra de Guadalupe, was remote, relatively isolated from the rest, and during the late Middle Ages increasingly dominated by the wealthy and royally favored monastery of Guadalupe.
The subregion formed by the cities of Cáceres and Trujillo and their contiguous districts is a coherent geographical entity that for some observers epitomizes the conjunction of environmental and human factors that differentiate Extremadura from the regions to the north and south and imbue it with a distinctive character of its own. This central subregion, less directly influenced by Castile and León than Plasencia and less tied to Andalusia than Badajoz, was above all a pastoral region, with vines and olives cultivated in the hilly and mountainous areas and pigs fattened in the woodlands of the hills. Cáceres and Trujillo, with their dramatic hilltop silhouettes, offer among the finest examples in all of Extremadura of the fortified towns and castles of the Moorish and postreconquest periods and the results of the fifteenth- and sixteenth-century boom in private, public, and ecclesiastic construction.
Despite the physical and cultural homogeneity of the Cáceres-Trujillo subregion, however, historical experience—as almost everywhere in the Iberian peninsula—again generated differences. León claimed Cáceres and Castile Trujillo after the reconquest of the early thirteenth century, although both towns received extensive jurisdictions and similar privileges aimed at encouraging resettlement of the area. Cáceres became part of the diocese of Coria, whereas Trujillo was included in what would be the much wealthier bishopric of Plasencia. And though the original districts of both cities were very large, subsequent readjustments and changes left Trujillo far more populous and wealthy.

Central province named after Trujillo, not Caceres as it seems Trujillo was superior to Caceres in all aspects before 18th century. Whole Extremadura division was under Trujillo name afterall.

Spoiler

In the sixteenth century Cáceres and Trujillo were small cities whose populations probably increased steadily over the course of the century. With about 6500 inhabitants at midcentury, Cáceres was somewhat smaller than Trujillo, which possibly had a population of around 8000 at that time the towns of Cáceres's jurisdiction equaled or slightly exceeded the number of residents in the city proper, and the population of Trujillo's larger district probably outnumbered that of the city. Thus these towns were not very large, and the major cities of Castile easily eclipsed all the extremeño cities in size. In 1561 Burgos and Segovia had populations of around 22,000, Valladolid 33,000, and Toledo 60,000; Seville's population rose to 100,000 or more by the century's close. Nonetheless in a sparsely populated region whose inhabitants were concentrated in relatively few settlements, Cáceres and Trujillo in every sense were important urban centers, regardless of whether they were called "villa" (Cáceres) or "ciudad" (Trujillo). They dominated their districts and served as centers for industry and commerce, political and religious institutions. A corregidor, the crown's representative, presided over the city council of each; the councils, controlled by the powerful local nobility, entered into and regulated many aspects of local life, from setting bread and wheat prices to organizing religious processions to recruiting military levies. The cities had a number of parishes, whereas most villages and small towns had but one.
Self-purchase and a rash of sales of villages to nobles by the crown beginning in the 1550s left Trujillo with only fifteen towns under its jurisdiction in the latesixteenth century; the city still held twice the number of towns controlled by Cáceres but far fewer than the twenty-five or more it once had.

Source

Right now, even after the new map, Extremadura is the worst-represented region of Spain. I hoped the at least would include one more province (like Plasencia). In the thread I had as signature I proposed a 4-province Extremadura (basically the same as yours, but splitting Badajoz and calling its eastern part as Mérida.
I find a bit sad how forgotten is Central Spain, even when at the time had a much larger influence than now.

 

[Anarchya]

This is in fact a very good idea. The medieval background of the era meant that the political dispositions were kingdoms . But every King in Iberia felt that they all belonged to a "Spain" entity. The Duke of Barcelona himself said in the 2nd concilium "debemos dejar bien alto el honor de España" and I've read (please Portuguese friends confirm this) that some Portuguese feel unfair for Castille claiming the Spain name

Yes.. Here in Portugal, at that time, when the kings united Castilla and Aragón and chose the name "España" to them, some portuguese said: "Espanha?! Mas espanhóis somos todos nós!" - "Spain?! But all of us are spanish!" Today, we don't care that much about that, but at those times, some ppl here said that... And then, amog the centuries came the idea to claim the Greek name of the peninsula "Iberia" to represent both states, Portugal and Spain.. but Espanha is the Roman name of all of us too.. and the fact they chose that name to them, came the idea too that, their plans, sooner or later would be to annex Portugal

 

[Arbus]

Thank God. I'm glad to know that there are people who know the history. Thank you!

I also want to add that I LOVE Portugal and if it depends on Iberia to join in real life, Iberia would be, but in the game, there is no discussion ... it is Spain, sorry brothers.

Argh, but don't you see? This argument goes against yours. There was a Spain (Castille+Aragon) before the PU with Portugal. Claiming the title of Spain for an incomplete union was controversial. Even the fact that "Phillips" have different dynastic numbers for the crowns of Spain and Portugal, endorses the fact that they were two separate entities. A fully integrated union of all peninsular kingdoms could have been called Spain if the union lasted long enough. As it didn't, the name Spain became more and more associated to the modern nation of Spain. That's why, in order to overcome this, people came up with "Iberian" to describe a union between all peninsular countries. And this idea came about during the EUIV time frame, so it's actually a good and plausible term to describe a state that would be formed during or after the XVIII century. You can even make it a requirement to have admin level 20 before forming Iberia.

 

[Thrudgelmir2333]

Yes.. Here in Portugal, at that time, when the kings united Castilla and Aragón and chose the name "España" to them, some portuguese said: "Espanha?! Mas espanhóis somos todos nós!" - "Spain?! But all of us are spanish!" Today, we don't care that much about that, but at those times, some ppl here said that... And then, amog the centuries came the idea to claim the Greek name of the peninsula "Iberia" to represent both states, Portugal and Spain.. but Espanha is the Roman name of all of us too.. and the fact they chose that name to them, came the idea too that, their plans, sooner or later would be to annex Portugal

Yeah, but remember that Luxembourg and the Dutch are in German lands, according to Romans, but it doesn't mean we should call them Germans XD Especially after an invasion or two.

 

[Nuajan]

In the fifteenth century the concept of Iberia did not exist. If you want, I could accept that they could be two formable nations, and that Iberia was only available after discovering level 22 of diplomatic technology, in the 18th century.

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

@tommassi I dare you, @Naranjito and someone playing portugal to a MP duel when the new update comes out and settle our differences as men

PS. I'm the good. You can guys choose if you want to be be the bad or the ugly

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

Yeah, but remember that Luxembourg and the Dutch are in German lands, according to Romans, but it doesn't mean we should call them Germans XD Especially after an invasion or two.

I don't have the information about Germans, but Hispania was the name given long before becoming a roman province. The area had a name because it was a discernible continuum , not only by the Romans but also by many others before them. They all agreed that Hispania, iberia, or whatever was the area inside the peninsula and up the pyrinees

This has a profound implication because it means that besides the artificial kingdoms product of a feudal system, the area was in fact a cultural continuum with some differences in each area of course. The case for Germany may be different because it's not as an enclosed area and therefore it may be harder to establish limits. The Roman designation of Germania maybe had more of a administrative function (I have no idea).

 

[Anarchya]

Adding to my previous posts and concerns about Portugal, I just had a jump at one of the Dev Diaries for Rule Brittania (here https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...velopment-diary-16th-of-january-2018.1065283/) - and... I don't know :

"In the 1.25 update we hope to better show how the various minor states in Ireland thrived as English rule grew weaker and weaker. We hope the new setup will better show how diverse the Island was and offer the player to lead one of the many clans or earldoms of Ireland to perhaps put up a stronger resistance to the English threat or fail and at best hope to rule as an English vassal." - the Immersion pack for the British Islands, rightfully took the time and placed effort toward portraying "many clams or earldosm of Ireland to perhaps put up a stronger resistance to the English threat", in all fairness, with the map that has been presented, I sincerely fail to see the same dedication and effort placed toward Portugal, a country that wasn't a push-over toward any of the Iberian countries...

" In the South two provinces have been carved out to show that the Anglo-Scottish border is in fact not flat and hard to defend. The addition of the West and East March provinces instead allows Scotland to fight an invader before they reach the farmlands around the capital
The Highlands have also been broken up, ensuring that a resurgent Highlander kingdom will be stronger and stand a better chance of surviving." - Several provinces were added and "broken up" to ensure that the "kingdom will be stronger and stand a better chance of surviving", Portugal has to this day remained independent and was solely occupied once by the combined forces of Napoleonic France and Spain (although France+Spain failed at their first attempt) - this in spite of being one of the oldest countries in Europe. How is a country like Scotland made more difficult to invade/easier to defend, while a country like Portugal is so fragile?

"While England was updated once before after release we felt that it was simply not up to date with regions like Denmark or Germany, and that it was too easy to overrun the island of Great Britain for a naval invader." - How is it "too easy"? I've never seen the AI do this, while in fact Portugal gets pounded into dust most of the time - while realistically, it was a really tough bone to chew (as mentioned before) - I fail to see the same concern being dedicated toward Portugal, given that its a country that is simply too simple to conquer by either sea or land - something that is far from what happened historically.

If invading Great Britain was/is "too easy" then invading Portugal is a EU4 tutorial on forts and how to move troops.

After reading the aforementioned Dev Diary, I'm even more confused with what was shown to us map-wise, there was so much dedication placed on the British Islands (not to mention France and the Low Countries), that I fail to see why Iberia isn't being given such attention, at least from a comparable point in the Dev Diary stage.

I really hope this gets reviewed...

That's why I posted several times "my portuguese map".. more provinces, to built our defense.. Like in reality it was.. They found provinces in rocks.. Ibiza, Mayorca.. Menorca, western canarias, eastern canarias... Xativa, Castello (or whatever) 4 in Galiza, and let's see what goes happen about Extremadura... in this side where is Setúbal? Braga/Guimarães? Elvas? All of them was important for the independence.. So much care about Scotland and the Highlanders like archipelagos split in 2 provinces.. Mann island? LOL Ok! How many provinces has Scotland in total? 5? 6? NO! They have more.. Or Ireland? 5? 6? 7? no. much more! But Portugal looks (we don't know yet) can't get much more provinces... In game, playing with other nations, Portugal loses everything really fast and many times even its independence... 1 fort in Évora.. another in Lisbon.. but we have more then 80 castels in reality.. This tiny country survived to Spain/France.. many of those castels bordering Spain (WHY???! Elvas.. ELVAS!) and in costal zones (Leiria, Aveiro, Setúbal, etc..) but try it in game... you'll declare bankrupcy in 2/3 years.. Braga/Guimarães; Bragança; Porto; Aveiro; Coimbra; Beira (Guarda/Castelo Branco); Leiria; Évora; Elvas; Lisboa; Setúbal; Beja; Algarve, Açores and Madeira! 15!

 

[Arbus]

In the fifteenth century the concept of Iberia did not exist. If you want, I could accept that they could be two formable nations, and that Iberia was only available after discovering level 22 of diplomatic technology, in the 18th century.

Yes, that's my idea, to have an endgame tag, pretty much like Brandenburg->Prussia->Germany. I think most players like to form new nations and alternative histories, and this Iberian tag combines both.

 

[Thrudgelmir2333]

Yes, that's my idea, to have an endgame tag, pretty much like Brandenburg->Prussia->Germany. I think most players like to form new nations and alternative histories, and this Iberian tag combines both.

This is what I tried to suggest, too, but apparently Spain is supposed to be an end of the corridor for the region, for some reason. I mean, it's not hard to picture why this two-tiered promotion would make sense; the game doesn't even require taking PT provinces to form Spain as it stands.

 

[Arbus]

This is what I tried to suggest, too, but apparently Spain is supposed to be an end of the corridor for the region, for some reason.

It is now, but in the new patch (I hope) they change it.

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

This is what I tried to suggest, too, but apparently Spain is supposed to be an end of the corridor for the region, for some reason.

It's just that Spain (Hispania) and Iberia are the same thing in different languages (Roman vs Greek). Iberia came out afterwards because castille_aragon took the name and after the centuries when ppl started thinking about uniting all of the peninsula they came up with Iberia because Spain was already a country

Personally I wouldn't mind having Iberia as a formable nation maybe for flavor but I'd rather see Spain as formable from Castille_portugal or any other Iberian kingdom for that mayter and gaining claims in all of the peninsula

 

[Afonso de Albuquerque]

In the fifteenth century the concept of Iberia did not exist. If you want, I could accept that they could be two formable nations, and that Iberia was only available after discovering level 22 of diplomatic technology, in the 18th century.

What do you mean the concept of Iberia didn't exist? Iberia is just the Greek word for what the Romans called Hispania (in the geographic sense, not politically), if anything it chronologically pre-dates Hispania. They were used synonymously since Antiquity. However, since the propaganda from the Castilian rulers eventually succeed in laying claim to the title of Spain, the word Iberia was left alone to refer to the entirety of the Peninsula.

 

[Anarchya]

Yeah, but remember that Luxembourg and the Dutch are in German lands, according to Romans, but it doesn't mean we should call them Germans XD Especially after an invasion or two.

My friend.. I'm still wondering why "The Dutch" and "Deutschland"! Are the same? I don't think so... but, why so similar? Maybe because Holand where "here" as a country before Deutchsland (Germany) was formed as we know it now! idk.. XD Same about Scandinavia... but I think that no1 (Sweden, Danmark; Norway, Finland, etc..) used that name the way that these guys did it with the name "Espanha" XD... I'm a portuguese spanish or a spanish from Portugal!

 

[Arbus]

Personally I wouldn't mind having Iberia as a formable nation maybe for flavor but I'd rather see Spain as formable from Castille_portugal or any other Iberian kingdom for that mayter and gaining claims in all of the peninsula

I don't like the core claims because it's too easy. There already is an historical path for Spain to PU Portugal, and I think there should also be a path for alternative Spain (Castille+Portugal) to PU Aragon. Froming Iberia after Spain should be a long term goal that requires some effort and should only be achived in the mid-late game.