EU4: El Dorado - Development Diary 1: Nahuatl, Exploration & Treaty of Tordesillas | Page 21

VolitionNewlove · Jan 24, 2015

Lemont Elwood said:
You're touchy, aren't you? Hashinshin's post wasn't saying that they were "uncivilized" in reality, but are uncivilized in the game, being that they fall so far behind in tech.

Doesn't that imply that there is then a problem with the system after all?

Mackus said:
Doom is an interesting mechanic, it accurately portrays reasons why Aztek got a huge empire, and a lot of enemies. Its true that country might've collapsed due to lack of sacrifices, because people genuinely believed it would. They really were uncivilised, superstitious barbarians. Also, neighbours of Azteks might've taken lack of sacrifices as sign of them weakening, and jump on them. But there is one problem with the mechanic: no way to "weather the storm".

That's a bit of an overly-stereotypical view of the entire Nahua peoples. There were no cases of the Emperor being sacrificed to delay "Doom," for example.

The concept of the Aztecs viewing the world at being in a state of armageddon before the arrival of the Spanish (particularly with the arrival of Smallpox) isn't really something that historian takes seriously.

Saintlukas · Jan 24, 2015

are we really going to start a fit over Word semantics? Focus on mechanics not politically correctness.

EmperorZelos · Jan 24, 2015

might have been asked before but gotta do it.

When is it expected to release and more importantly, will it work with the CKII->EUIV converter?

Wildcat_PL · Jan 24, 2015

Blackwolfpt said:
That button is to hunt privateers.

How do u know that? Have I missed it in this DD?

moscal · Jan 24, 2015

How do u know that? Have I missed it in this DD?

In generall description addon Paradox-man speak about fight with pirates.

VolitionNewlove · Jan 24, 2015

EmperorZelos said:
might have been asked before but gotta do it.

When is it expected to release and more importantly, will it work with the CKII->EUIV converter?

If I remember correctly (and I may be wrong,) Crusader Kings II was updated in parallel with Europa Universalis' Art of War patch, in order to accomodate the new provinces.

moscal · Jan 24, 2015

Zurück - AI dont have naval atritton, mission journey around the world give atritton on normal rules (exploratory missions 0 atrittion). So AI dont have problem with mission a'la Magellan?

EDIT

What with "Inter Caetera"? This idea simulate spanish colonial claims based on friedom with Pope.

FrontLine1111 · Jan 24, 2015

While the treaty mechanic is a good step in the right direction, I don't like how it's limited to Catholic nations. I'd prefer a general New World claim system that would not be limited by religion.

Golladan · Jan 24, 2015

Mackus said:
Uhm, what? This is exactly what i said.

Then I have no idea what you were trying to say with having a religion with doom and another religion with doom disabled and all that.

Doom isn't global. Why would another nation reforming their religion affect your own?

Rubidium · Jan 24, 2015

Pugman said:
While the treaty mechanic is a good step in the right direction, I don't like how it's limited to Catholic nations. I'd prefer a general New World claim system that would not be limited by religion.

Why? None of the Protestants paid any attention to the Treaty of Tordesillas (as indicated by the fact that I am currently typing this in English, not Spanish). And obviously the natives would be even less likely to pay any attention to it. Even other Catholics (e.g. France) mostly shrugged it off.

Sir Tornado · Jan 24, 2015

This type of naval exploration is something I suggested in one of the threads before EU IV was released. I am immensely happy that it has been implemented

EMT0 · Jan 24, 2015

Rubidium said:
Why? None of the Protestants paid any attention to the Treaty of Tordesillas (as indicated by the fact that I am currently typing this in English, not Spanish). And obviously the natives would be even less likely to pay any attention to it. Even other Catholics (e.g. France) mostly shrugged it off.

Mainly because it's annoying when you're one province short of completing the colonization of the coast of Colombia, and Brittany shows up to claim that last province that's completely surrounded by your provinces. Basically, stopping inane single province claims.

Can we also make the Rio Grande more unattractive? I'm getting tired of seeing Europe prioritize Texas over Cartagena, Caracas, or Georgia.

Keioel · Jan 24, 2015

Agreed completely on your last point. The problem with a sitting Emperor changing the mummies being actively involved in government is that he'd essentially be demoting his mummy as well, of course once they've made contact with the rest of the world there's no reason they couldn't take a look at ancient Egypt and decide to co-opt some of their stuff in relation to their mummies.

EMT0 said:
This may not be related directly to this dev diary, but it does address a soon to be touched upon topic in the Inca and their religion(I guess it can be called Inti...?)

The Inca's state cult was essentially Emperor worship by equating the Emperor to being a descendant of the Sun God; but if we're looking for things to reform, and believe me, it needed to be reformed eventually even if the Inca successfully crush any invaders, is the practice of maintaining the mummies of the previous Emperors, whose extended families and the dedicated priesthood to the mummy/family acted as nobility in the Inca Empire. Every Emperor went conquering to obtain more wealth for their own inevitable tomb in a grand contest of intergenerational oneupmanship as well as to maintain the splendor of their ancestor's mummies and frankly, the Inca couldn't keep that up forever. Don't quote me on this but the resources the Inca dedicated to the mummies of their dead emperors ballooned as the Inca state grrew, taking up a disproportionate amount versus what they were in the time of the small Kingdom of Cusco, pre-Pachacuti. Eventually, an Emperor would have had to crush the practice of mummy worship or at least minimize it, or risk gridlock in the Inca state as places to conquer for wealth run out; the Inca really only had the North Andes and the Beni plains as a means of expansion in their traditional method of vassalization or conquest at the point that they fell.

Completely unrelated, but can we please give the Inca a means of expanding in territories they owned but are represented as uncolonized? Half the provinces represented as uncivilized were more organized than some of the tribal states in Africa that have tags.

The Custodian · Jan 24, 2015

So, i have to wonder, how do Native American nations that westernize interact with the Treaty if they go catholic?

Fawr · Jan 24, 2015

I think the idea that the only thing holding back Nahuatl from keeping up with European technology was religious is a bit odd.

Love the exploration missions - and the bonus for circumnavigation is a nice additional objective.

The Tordesillas mechanics sound like a great way of putting together a generic version which limits the number of colonial powers until the reformation (possibly just the one in each colonial region).

Dr. B · Jan 24, 2015

So if the Aztecs annex and release a country in another continent, they will have the Doom as well?

Would be fun to spread the way of sacrifice to Europe!

ppigor · Jan 24, 2015

Mackus said:
Doom is an interesting mechanic, it accurately portrays reasons why Aztek got a huge empire, and a lot of enemies

Both Cortez and Pizarro won due to local forces, but these forces were completely different origin.
The ability to find allies where they seemingly can not be, is the main reason for their success.

Flower wars in game simulates necessity of constant wars, but in no way associated with the death of the Aztec civilization.
This is a great problem.
In my opinion, gamers will now have to perform in game a lot more actions, but the historicity of the game will not improve.
The same about alternative history.

Hakuromatsu · Jan 25, 2015

ppigor said:
Flower wars in game simulates necessity of constant wars, but in no way associated with the death of the Aztec civilization.
This is a great problem.
In my opinion, gamers will now have to perform in game a lot more actions, but the historicity of the game will not improve.
The same about alternative history.

I think Paradox does a good job of modeling (or trying to model) mechanics up to one "degree of separation" from history. Since Aztec civilization never really "reached 100 Doom" and only met its downfall at the hands of conquistadors, history has no record of what would have happened if any of the Nahua states had reached a critical level of unrest due to a failure to appease/honor/strengthen the gods. But the dev team has to model what could have happened in that situation, and after that first degree of separation it's hands off and the player can write their own alternate history. (It's the same with the League Wars mechanic, since we have no idea what would've happened if the Protestant League had curbstomped Austria.)

The concept of sacrificing the current ruler at 100 Doom does make sense, since the Aztecs believed that sacrifices of higher ranks and social classes were more meaningful.

Lemont Elwood · Jan 25, 2015

Pte Baldrick said:
Doesn't that imply that there is then a problem with the system after all?

That's a bit of an overly-stereotypical view of the entire Nahua peoples. There were no cases of the Emperor being sacrificed to delay "Doom," for example.

The concept of the Aztecs viewing the world at being in a state of armageddon before the arrival of the Spanish (particularly with the arrival of Smallpox) isn't really something that historian takes seriously.

What Westernization? Of course it's flawed. I was just pointing out that you seemed to be drawing a false impression of the guy's meaning.

EMT0 · Jan 25, 2015

I mean if we're guessing at what would have happened with a victorious Protestant League, I think Sweden would have annexed a lot of Northern Germany :s

Anyways, on the topic of making allies in odd places; one thing I've always liked as a concept to both enrich espionage and make the historic conquests of the Inca and Aztec a bit more...historic is the idea of being able to collude with local rebels. As an example, let's say you're invading Lithuania as Poland, or plan to invade Lithuania. A diplomatic option in a theoretical espionage window should be to target local elements in Country X, in this case Lithuania, to rise up as allies or at least coincidental cobelligerents in the war, and let's say your options are local minorities both nationalistic and religious, as well as nobles. This option would only be available in provinces with either a high revolt risk or that have reached a certain percentage threshold in militancy in the revolt bar.

By putting up ducats per month, you can accelerate the rate at which revolt risk increases in the target by simulating negotiation for an alliance as well as the channeling of money and arms. Upon declaring war, an army will spawn on a province of the group targeted that will range from a puny pack of poorly armed peasants to a professional army depending on how long you've been preparing this. But instead of creating unaligned Ukrainian Nationalists at the time of war declaration, a revolter army spawns in a single province that upon capturing a province of the same religion and culture, it will auto-annex them and will do so for any provinces that match this criteria; If the rebels aren't crushed by the time of peace with the original war declarer, then any provinces controlled break away and a weighted event will fire to make an alliance between the revolter and its original supporter.

How would this work for the Spanish if they barely had any diplomatic contact? If an area in your nation has an unaccepted culture and has reached a high percentage towards a revolt forming, then upon the arrival of troops from a hostile power in a province with its core, an event will fire where they pledge an alliance with the invading army and revolt. And depending on, I dunno, tech group/tech level/government, the threshold is either higher or lower. So less centralized states will be more liable to suffer from this, which was a common European tactic in many of the conquests at the time.

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