EU4: El Dorado - Development Diary 1: Nahuatl, Exploration & Treaty of Tordesillas | Page 23

bbqftw · Jan 27, 2015

Please allow Nahuatl zealots to enforce demands for religion change on non-pagan groups.

Or allow pagan zealots in general to enforce on non-pagan religious groups.

Yes, I have utterly shameless motives for wanting this.

Kraxis · Jan 27, 2015

bbqftw said:
Please allow Nahuatl zealots to enforce demands for religion change on non-pagan groups.

Or allow pagan zealots in general to enforce a non-pagan religious groups.

Yes, I have utterly shameless motives for wanting this.

World Doom by 1650?

Deleted · Jan 28, 2015

I hope you guys update the CK2 Converter to take advantage of the reform decision in this DLC, so unreformed religions won't just become Animist or Shaman but rather stay as unreformed, but reformable with this expansion.

Xinder · Jan 28, 2015

Cèsar de Quart said:
The Doom system takes off with a good idea, but it takes it to an extreme fantasy effect. I know it's supposed to model unrest and peril in the mind of the Mechica population, and it can be fun to play, but it's so far off reality, so abstract in its concept, that at the minimum information you have about Mesoamerican culture and religion, it will throw you off the game completely.

If they wanted to model a good system to represent Mesoamerican society and religion, they should have gone with:

- Indirect rule and vassal kings. The Aztecs, like other American state systems, had a political empire of vassal kings (indirect rule) that gave tributes and soldiers to the Triple Alliance in the Mexico valley. Take control of a neighbouring state and decide: keep their king, install one of your own family members, or rule the land directly at great cost.

- Prestige as a source of power: When the Spaniards showed that the Aztecs were weak against them (or that Moctezuma was the most indecisive monarch in a long time), many of the Aztec Empire provinces simply stopped sending tributes. Since their rule was indirect, and their army was not permanent, they relied on the threat of military action. The Spanish in play made many tributary kings both greedy for independence or afraid of crossing the Spaniards. Loose too much prestige and your vassals might start to secede.

- Respect the Line of Tollan. To the Aztecs, Tollan is the mythical ancestor of their people, and all the monarchies tried to link themselves with the one that was considered direct descendant of Tollan. I think it was Cholula, but I'm not sure.

- All roads lead to Cholula. The Mesoamerican Rome; archaeologists have discovered a vast network of ways and roads leading to Cholula. Being overlord of Cholula and respecting their royal family is key to religious control of the Valley and the lands of the Aztec-Maya religious system, which is not the same, but quite similar in many aspects.

- Rewrite History! Tlacaelel and his brother, King Izcoatl burned down the old books and re-wrote Aztec history. This allowed their rule to be more solid, but also made research and insight on the past more difficult. Moctezuma recalled having tried to investigate if fair-skinned men had arrived to America's shore before, but found out that there were no records, the books had been burned and the inscriptions destroyed. Maybe loss of tech power or monarch points?

- Abolish the Triple Alliance: In this Triple Alliance, Tenochtitlan, Texcoco and Tlacopan ruled, theorically, in accordance. At some point, Tenochtitlan took over the government of Tlacopan and installed a puppet ruler of the royal family of Tenochtitlan, and by that time the Tenochca faction was by far the most powerful within the Triple Alliance, making the kings of Texcoco and Tlacopan virtually subsidiaries to that of Tenochtitlan. I'd like to see federation-like systems that helped replicate the Triple Alliance system into other situations, and their dissolution, after one of their factions gains a lot of power, into a single, centralised entity. HRE style.

- The Battle (or competition) of the Gods. Or more precisely, of the Priesthoods. Like other pantheons, the Aztecs considered all gods possible and plausible. Many Aztecs converted to Christianity only to adore Mary and Tezcatlipoca at the same time, or associate Mary with Queltzalepetl, sister of Quetzalcoatl, and Christ or St Thomas with Quetzalcoatl itself. Anyway, the different priesthoods in the Mesoamerican world were always eager to extend the influence of their patron god further and further, higher and higher. Similar to the way Marduk went from patron god of the Babylonians that became, after Babylon's dominance over Mesopotamia, one of the region's patron gods, so did the patron god of Tenochtitlan, Huitzilopochtli. If you could choose which priesthood to support and promote their increase of wealth and influence, which festivals should it preside, etc etc, it could give out a nice theme for Mesoamerican religious world and struggle.

Now, DOOM.

More than a Doom counter, I'd have preferred something more akin to Mesoamerican thinking: calendar. According to the Moctezuma Codex, very 50 years or so, the caledar was "bound", the flames were lit off from the temples and the hearth in every house and palace, to be renewed, and complex rituals were to be carried out if the Tlaotani wanted the world to keep going. I don't remember the specifics, but the Binding of the Years, or New Flame Ceremony, was a rather close and constant endtimes scenario. I would have preferred that every X number of years, several rituals, festivities and other perks had to be made, and a certain amount of prestige and piety spent, in order to pass correctly to the next cicle.

There's a long description of the ceremonies in its Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Fire_ceremony

Everything this guy said fixes all the problems I have with this.

I was so excited for this expansion because of my love for the Aztecs, but this doom mechanic completely fails to represent them in any accurate measure. I can only hope somebody mods the game to fix this absurd misrepresentation.

Teten1 · Jan 28, 2015

Xinder said:
Everything this guy said fixes all the problems I have with this.

I was so excited for this expansion because of my love for the Aztecs, but this doom mechanic completely fails to represent them in any accurate measure. I can only hope somebody mods the game to fix this absurd misrepresentation.

Veritas Et Fortitudo, perhaps?

Swami · Jan 28, 2015

Is it possible to create your own culture for the nation you want to create? So you could make Frisian the culture when you create your own Friesland?

Morwys · Jan 28, 2015

My grain of salt:

The Doom mechanic is, in my opinion, better than nothing and that's it. Frankly, I expected a more realistic and political approach to mesoamerican and pre-colombian societies. What this does is basically adding a 'go to war' counter (one more reason to argue that EUIV is a war game more than anything else) to the Aztecs and other nations of the region. Without key political entities and structures, it's all meaningless in the end. But, as I said, it's better than what we have so far for those cultures: nothing.
The auto-exploration mechanic is amazing, something I've wanted since I first played EU3. I'd buy the DLC just for it, if it was the case.
The Treaty of Tordesillas mechanic is either great or lackluster, depending on how the AI behaves in relation to it. In one hand, it may help the AI to focus on a single region at a time, which I'd love to see. On the other hand, if the AI ignores or doesn't follow it more closely, then it's a ridiculous mechanic, useless most of the time.

victimizer · Jan 28, 2015

- Indirect rule and vassal kings. The Aztecs, like other American state systems, had a political empire of vassal kings (indirect rule) that gave tributes and soldiers to the Triple Alliance in the Mexico valley. Take control of a neighbouring state and decide: keep their king, install one of your own family members, or rule the land directly at great cost.

This mechanic needs to be used much more widely. Especially in the Indian and Zomian regions, I think.

net.split · Jan 28, 2015

The Treaty of Tordesillas is a super-important mechanic for the AI, regardless of how their behavior is implemented with respect to it.

If the AI ignores the Treaty, Catholic AI colonizers are going to hate each other and probably have poor relations with the pope as well. This will break up any alliances between Spain, Portugal, and France (assuming none of these go Protestant) and create a vicious rivalry between three of the four most powerful AI nations in EU4. This would add a lot of unpredictability to the game and may help stem things like France blobbing eastward and the three of them having basically no competition beyond the player in the entire world. Further, AI colonizing will slow way down due to the colonial growth malus.

If the AI follows the Treaty, colonial worlds will be divided between those nations. The effects of this are fairly obvious and don't really need further explanation.

If the AI will sometimes go one way and sometimes go another, you never know what kind of game you're going to get. Some Catholic nations may stay friends as they respect each other's lands while dogpiling the nation that chose to break the treaty. Progress of colonization will be drastically altered, as well as the land struggles on Europe proper.

Further, the fact that this only affects Catholic nations throws another wrench into everything. The game can develop very differently depending on whether England, France, Spain, and/or Portugal wind up converting.

Basically, this mechanic should add a bunch of dynamism to the game even without any direct interaction by the player. The only downside is that this seems to be specific to colonial nations and not trade companies, which means it won't hold for places like Africa or India, sadly. Though, maybe this is for the best, as the first Catholic to hit West Africa could lock down almost all colonization eastward for the rest of the game (AI only, of course).

Mikalos · Jan 28, 2015

net.split said:
The Treaty of Tordesillas is a super-important mechanic for the AI, regardless of how their behavior is implemented with respect to it.

If the AI ignores the Treaty, Catholic AI colonizers are going to hate each other and probably have poor relations with the pope as well. This will break up any alliances between Spain, Portugal, and France (assuming none of these go Protestant) and create a vicious rivalry between three of the four most powerful AI nations in EU4. This would add a lot of unpredictability to the game and may help stem things like France blobbing eastward and the three of them having basically no competition beyond the player in the entire world. Further, AI colonizing will slow way down due to the colonial growth malus.

If the AI follows the Treaty, colonial worlds will be divided between those nations. The effects of this are fairly obvious and don't really need further explanation.

If the AI will sometimes go one way and sometimes go another, you never know what kind of game you're going to get. Some Catholic nations may stay friends as they respect each other's lands while dogpiling the nation that chose to break the treaty. Progress of colonization will be drastically altered, as well as the land struggles on Europe proper.

Further, the fact that this only affects Catholic nations throws another wrench into everything. The game can develop very differently depending on whether England, France, Spain, and/or Portugal wind up converting.

Basically, this mechanic should add a bunch of dynamism to the game even without any direct interaction by the player. The only downside is that this seems to be specific to colonial nations and not trade companies, which means it won't hold for places like Africa or India, sadly. Though, maybe this is for the best, as the first Catholic to hit West Africa could lock down almost all colonization eastward for the rest of the game (AI only, of course).

i think how willing a nation is to ignore the treaty should depend on relations with the first colonizer

--

colonization still has the ultimate problem that its modeled primarily on the "move people here take over populatiuon of area" modell, and not, especially everybody who wasnt england, "make ssweeping claims with maybe some missions or forts as your own peoples real presense"

Loaf Warden · Jan 28, 2015

PDR1987 said:
What this does is basically adding a 'go to war' counter (one more reason to argue that EUIV is a war game more than anything else) to the Aztecs and other nations of the region.

To be fair, life in that region really was one big, endless war game. Not having constant war there would be as ahistorical as having all the daimyo of Japan settle down into peaceful coexistence with one another. In particular, having a mechanic that encourages the Aztecs to maintain a cycle of war against their neighbors is more realistic than having them just conquer everyone outright. I don't know if the Doom mechanic is the best way to go about it, but it's a step in the right direction.

net.split · Jan 28, 2015

Mikalos said:
i think how willing a nation is to ignore the treaty should depend on relations with the first colonizer

--

colonization still has the ultimate problem that its modeled primarily on the "move people here take over populatiuon of area" modell, and not, especially everybody who wasnt england, "make ssweeping claims with maybe some missions or forts as your own peoples real presense"

Not sure that's true... a colony becomes a full province with merely 1000 people. Plus the Base Tax values stay quite low. Light population seems to be the assumption.

Wizzington · Jan 28, 2015

net.split said:
The Treaty of Tordesillas is a super-important mechanic for the AI, regardless of how their behavior is implemented with respect to it.

If the AI ignores the Treaty, Catholic AI colonizers are going to hate each other and probably have poor relations with the pope as well. This will break up any alliances between Spain, Portugal, and France (assuming none of these go Protestant) and create a vicious rivalry between three of the four most powerful AI nations in EU4. This would add a lot of unpredictability to the game and may help stem things like France blobbing eastward and the three of them having basically no competition beyond the player in the entire world. Further, AI colonizing will slow way down due to the colonial growth malus.

If the AI follows the Treaty, colonial worlds will be divided between those nations. The effects of this are fairly obvious and don't really need further explanation.

If the AI will sometimes go one way and sometimes go another, you never know what kind of game you're going to get. Some Catholic nations may stay friends as they respect each other's lands while dogpiling the nation that chose to break the treaty. Progress of colonization will be drastically altered, as well as the land struggles on Europe proper.

Further, the fact that this only affects Catholic nations throws another wrench into everything. The game can develop very differently depending on whether England, France, Spain, and/or Portugal wind up converting.

Basically, this mechanic should add a bunch of dynamism to the game even without any direct interaction by the player. The only downside is that this seems to be specific to colonial nations and not trade companies, which means it won't hold for places like Africa or India, sadly. Though, maybe this is for the best, as the first Catholic to hit West Africa could lock down almost all colonization eastward for the rest of the game (AI only, of course).

Catholic AIs will typically try to follow the treaty as long as all the good land isn't claimed, so if you rush to grab everything but the frozen wastelands they're not going to go 'shucks, I guess he called dibs' but it'll be much easier to carve up the new world if you're not greedy.

Freudia · Jan 29, 2015

Wiz said:
Catholic AIs will typically try to follow the treaty as long as all the good land isn't claimed, so if you rush to grab everything but the frozen wastelands they're not going to go 'shucks, I guess he called dibs' but it'll be much easier to carve up the new world if you're not greedy.

Will Catholic AIs attempt to actually flesh out their claimed areas before trying to grab land in other areas? For example, if Catholic Castile claims the Caribbean, will it actually colonize all of the Carribean before moving on to Brazil/North America?

VolitionNewlove · Jan 29, 2015

Cèsar de Quart said:
The Doom system takes off with a good idea, but it takes it to an extreme fantasy effect. I know it's supposed to model unrest and peril in the mind of the Mechica population, and it can be fun to play, but it's so far off reality, so abstract in its concept, that at the minimum information you have about Mesoamerican culture and religion, it will throw you off the game completely.

If they wanted to model a good system to represent Mesoamerican society and religion, they should have gone with:

- Indirect rule and vassal kings. The Aztecs, like other American state systems, had a political empire of vassal kings (indirect rule) that gave tributes and soldiers to the Triple Alliance in the Mexico valley. Take control of a neighbouring state and decide: keep their king, install one of your own family members, or rule the land directly at great cost.

- Prestige as a source of power: When the Spaniards showed that the Aztecs were weak against them (or that Moctezuma was the most indecisive monarch in a long time), many of the Aztec Empire provinces simply stopped sending tributes. Since their rule was indirect, and their army was not permanent, they relied on the threat of military action. The Spanish in play made many tributary kings both greedy for independence or afraid of crossing the Spaniards. Loose too much prestige and your vassals might start to secede.

- Respect the Line of Tollan. To the Aztecs, Tollan is the mythical ancestor of their people, and all the monarchies tried to link themselves with the one that was considered direct descendant of Tollan. I think it was Cholula, but I'm not sure.

- All roads lead to Cholula. The Mesoamerican Rome; archaeologists have discovered a vast network of ways and roads leading to Cholula. Being overlord of Cholula and respecting their royal family is key to religious control of the Valley and the lands of the Aztec-Maya religious system, which is not the same, but quite similar in many aspects.

- Rewrite History! Tlacaelel and his brother, King Izcoatl burned down the old books and re-wrote Aztec history. This allowed their rule to be more solid, but also made research and insight on the past more difficult. Moctezuma recalled having tried to investigate if fair-skinned men had arrived to America's shore before, but found out that there were no records, the books had been burned and the inscriptions destroyed. Maybe loss of tech power or monarch points?

- Abolish the Triple Alliance: In this Triple Alliance, Tenochtitlan, Texcoco and Tlacopan ruled, theorically, in accordance. At some point, Tenochtitlan took over the government of Tlacopan and installed a puppet ruler of the royal family of Tenochtitlan, and by that time the Tenochca faction was by far the most powerful within the Triple Alliance, making the kings of Texcoco and Tlacopan virtually subsidiaries to that of Tenochtitlan. I'd like to see federation-like systems that helped replicate the Triple Alliance system into other situations, and their dissolution, after one of their factions gains a lot of power, into a single, centralised entity. HRE style.

- The Battle (or competition) of the Gods. Or more precisely, of the Priesthoods. Like other pantheons, the Aztecs considered all gods possible and plausible. Many Aztecs converted to Christianity only to adore Mary and Tezcatlipoca at the same time, or associate Mary with Queltzalepetl, sister of Quetzalcoatl, and Christ or St Thomas with Quetzalcoatl itself. Anyway, the different priesthoods in the Mesoamerican world were always eager to extend the influence of their patron god further and further, higher and higher. Similar to the way Marduk went from patron god of the Babylonians that became, after Babylon's dominance over Mesopotamia, one of the region's patron gods, so did the patron god of Tenochtitlan, Huitzilopochtli. If you could choose which priesthood to support and promote their increase of wealth and influence, which festivals should it preside, etc etc, it could give out a nice theme for Mesoamerican religious world and struggle.

Now, DOOM.

More than a Doom counter, I'd have preferred something more akin to Mesoamerican thinking: calendar. According to the Moctezuma Codex, very 50 years or so, the caledar was "bound", the flames were lit off from the temples and the hearth in every house and palace, to be renewed, and complex rituals were to be carried out if the Tlaotani wanted the world to keep going. I don't remember the specifics, but the Binding of the Years, or New Flame Ceremony, was a rather close and constant endtimes scenario. I would have preferred that every X number of years, several rituals, festivities and other perks had to be made, and a certain amount of prestige and piety spent, in order to pass correctly to the next cicle.

There's a long description of the ceremonies in its Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Fire_ceremony

Really makes me sad that these ideas weren't in the game instead.

Doom is already feeling a lot like Europa Universalis' answer to Crusader Kings' infamous Decadence mechanic.?

Incompetent · Jan 29, 2015

Freudia said:
Will Catholic AIs attempt to actually flesh out their claimed areas before trying to grab land in other areas? For example, if Catholic Castile claims the Caribbean, will it actually colonize all of the Carribean before moving on to Brazil/North America?

The AI already concentrates on one or two regions at a time, doesn't it? I've never seen an AI just spraying colonies randomly unless it's run out of alternatives. The Caribbean may be something of a (deliberate, historically justifiable) exception though, as it's so valuable that everyone grabs whatever they can there before it's all gone.

TheDarkMaster · Jan 29, 2015

Incompetent said:
The AI already concentrates on one or two regions at a time, doesn't it? I've never seen an AI just spraying colonies randomly unless it's run out of alternatives. The Caribbean may be something of a (deliberate, historically justifiable) exception though, as it's so valuable that everyone grabs whatever they can there before it's all gone.

Usually what I see is that they establish a CN in one region, plus a few more colonies that it started before the CN was established, then move onto a different CN region. Once it's filled out most of the CN regions in its range with CNs along with non-CN regions, it fills out the remaining empty spaces in CN regions it already has a CN in.

Steph · Jan 29, 2015

Aren't we supposed to get a new dev diary today? Hurry up guys!

Freudia · Jan 29, 2015

Incompetent said:
The AI already concentrates on one or two regions at a time, doesn't it? I've never seen an AI just spraying colonies randomly unless it's run out of alternatives. The Caribbean may be something of a (deliberate, historically justifiable) exception though, as it's so valuable that everyone grabs whatever they can there before it's all gone.

Probably, but since we're adjusting the AI to accommodate the Treaty, it's still a good idea to ask how it'll behave in the new patch. It's not a good idea to assume everything will work the same unless specified otherwise; this is Paradox, after all.

gnome109 · Jan 29, 2015

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