EUIV - Development Diary - 11th of February 2020

[van Fol]

DoF tiers seem interesting, but I don't like how they are calculated, here are the cons of counting tags:
- due to huge initial amount of tags you would start from top tier
- it adds to the momentum of initially large nations that can afford it
- with time countries eliminate each other and you have no control over that, the tier will go down no matter what you do, where is the carrot in that?
- players will release tags only to get higher tier

I'd suggest counting development (percentage-wise) but excluding dev of DoF to encourage actual defending of faith and helping your brethren, rather than blobbing. But it shouldn't be the only factor. Favor-style progress sounds also reasonable. It makes sense as long as it converts real effort to higher tier.

However I also understand that with time religion should be less impactful, but it should be handled in different way than a simple tag count (because it comes with the cons I mentioned).

Force rebel spawn is a great improvement, but +50% rebel size does not sound realistic as this would mean rebel numbers decrease after years as they grow in power (long-time rebels should be actually even larger than forced ones), instead size boost they should receive a morale boost, because they are defending themselves if we initiate a fight with them.

 

[Weyird]

I'm also a little 'worried' by the bonuses being from the number of countries. But I see that it is meant to represent you defending other countries, and stops giving its bonuses if you're just govvling it them up. So it's ok.

Would be a lot more fun to do that DaiViet achievement now where you need to get 10 nations following your faith.

 

[Alfray Stryke]

Damn, this really weakens the mechanic for Anglicans since spreading religion is highly unlikely

But I can understand that a single Anglican nation adopting Defender of the Faith just for the bonuses is probably one reason why you're making this change

You should at least be able to get the Tier 2 bonuses, assuming colonial nations count (Cascadia, Canada, Eastern America, Louisiana, Australia should all be doable).

 

[Metz]

Can anything be done regarding Defender of Religious Minorities? Like protecting Jews in Eastern Europe, Muslims in Iberia, or Copts in the Middle East?

Since we have estates what about having religious communities when you have at least one province that has a their religion? Jewish communities could be represented by province modifiers. The more Jewish communities you have the better terms you get for loans. However there is a larger chance of rebellion when things go wrong due to scapegoating.

You could have different tax levels just like you have different tariff levels for your colonies. While we are at it, you could have different tax levels for states too.

 

[BrotherJonathan]

Nice way to actually make DoF into a meaningful gameplay mechanic, rather than just "spend gold to get some bonuses and CBs". However, I do agree with those who say that bonuses should probably be calculated by development or province, rather than by tag count, in order to avoid spamming.

 

[Spaninq]

@Groogy Let's say you're going for the One Faith achievement on 1.30. You obviously want 50 nations of your faith for the tasty -30% missionary maintenance cost. So optimally, you want up to 49 client states/vassals that are landlocked within your borders so no one will declare on them (at least without the Imperialism cb or no cb). That's a lot of button clicking, although one faith runs already have a bunch of button clicking due to needing to convert 2000+ provinces.

This might be something to consider when weighing whether to have the tiers based on # of countries, total dev, or # of provinces.

FWIW, I do believe that # of countries should have some impact, since a defender of the faith title when you're the only nation of that religion is pretty cheesy.

 

[yyrkroon]

What is provoke rebels? Sending arms to rebels? Is it limited to a rebel type? Can i arm pretenders if my king is bad? Do i still have to wait for the pretender rebels to capture territory or can i accept demands right away?
Thanks.

Lining up everyone in the village and executing a certain number of people, turning a conquered mosque/church into a stable, "blood tax", or in the west, imprisoning members of the press or clergy, etc...

 

[IndigoRage]

Is it me, or does the Two Sicilies have the same flag as the normal Sicily tag? It would be better if we had the actual Two Sicilies flag.

On that note, it's a little weird the march of Sicily you get in the Andalusia mission tree is bog-standard Sicily with the Christian theming and everything.

 

[IndigoRage]

I see the Gulf of Trieste still isn't on the map.

 

[yyrkroon]

Thank you for you answer!
Well the church was a huge sponsor in multiple sectors (look at the arts and literature of the time. Look at the renaissance, literally founded in big part by the church), but they still condemned anything that opposed the religion or the holy books. Galileo's situation was a weird one, it's true, but i still think the church censorship and the old way of thinking were one of the reasons that led to the scientific revolution. If you take the index of forbidden books you can find multiple famous works and discoveries, and that surely hasn't helped with scientific progress.

The "problem" isn't really religion, it is de facto or de jure state backed orthodoxy (little 'o'). That orthodoxy could be religion, social order, cultural perspective, etc...
Any time there is a belief system that cannot be questioned, pursuit of the truth will suffer. This is as true today, although religion has largely been replaced with various secular social-progressive dogma, as it ever was.

 

[MaXimillion]

what I and Johan want though is that you don't benefit as much if you own literally everything. That it is better for you if there are other nations to defend.

How about

(countries_with_religion * 10) + development_of_religion_not_owned_by_dotf_or_non-tributary_subjects

 

[raikaria]

The country-limits for Defender of the Faith are a mixed bag to me. They make some sense [The title holding more prestige if the faith is larger] but...

It kinda feels like it will enforce Religions even more in MP, since now you get basically no benefit for being an off-religion just so you can have Permament DotF. Why go Reformed for solo DotF and decent benefits when you can just join the wave of mass-conversions to Orthodox; get it to T5 DotF for an extra bonus for everyone?

Also it makes DotF a lot less attractive to Ibadi; Coptic; Anglican and to a lesser degree Orthodox; Reformed and Shia countries, and is probably a buff to Sunni.

Of course; you could always become the Aggressor of the Faith; if I recall it's easier to make Heratics convert now... I might try a some sort of Theocracic campaign as a smaller religion with the explicit aim of converting others...

 

[fatedkoga]

Release a beta patch

 

[Vollwertkost]

DoF tiers seem interesting, but I don't like how they are calculated, here are the cons of counting tags:
- due to huge initial amount of tags you would start from top tier
- it adds to the momentum of initially large nations that can afford it
- with time countries eliminate each other and you have no control over that, the tier will go down no matter what you do, where is the carrot in that?
- players will release tags only to get higher tier

I'd suggest counting development (percentage-wise) but excluding dev of DoF to encourage actual defending of faith and helping your brethren, rather than blobbing. But it shouldn't be the only factor. Favor-style progress sounds also reasonable. It makes sense as long as it converts real effort to higher tier.

However I also understand that with time religion should be less impactful, but it should be handled in different way than a simple tag count (because it comes with the cons I mentioned).

Force rebel spawn is a great improvement, but +50% rebel size does not sound realistic as this would mean rebel numbers decrease after years as they grow in power (long-time rebels should be actually even larger than forced ones), instead size boost they should receive a morale boost, because they are defending themselves if we initiate a fight with them.

Yes to all of this. I think these adjustments would not only make more sense, they'd also improve the mechanics gameplay-wise. It'd be really cool, if progression of DotF tiers was also tied to "honoured defensive call to arms" or something similar.

Concerning the provoke rebel uprising mechanic: If the point of chosing this option is purely timing based, aka "please not right now, my armies are needed elsewhere, let's speed this up", then a slightly larger revolt is no real downside. What do you think, maybe the opportunity cost could be a bit more harsh? An induced uprising could pacify the region for now, but depending on the type of rebels could add 2-5 years of seperatism, 2-5 unrest, +0,005 monthly autonomy for 5 years etc.

 

[regne_valencia]

Here is an idea: how about measuring defenders of the faith by actual job performance? That is, making defenders earn credit by actually defending fellow nations from infidels.

Every new defender starts at level 1, and earns points each time it answers a defender call to arms and successfully defends. It loses some credit if the war is lost, and it loses a lot if it either declines the call or renders "unsatisfactory condottieri performance". When the defender reaches a certain number of points, it gets promoted (or demoted).

How much each war is worth depends on how big the infidel opponents are. If you keep fighting off Ottomans on behalf of others, you deserve a prize for it.

Sounds interesting, a mechanic with dynamic bonus that vary according how you act as a defender of the faith

 

[TheFireWarrior]

something that i've been wondering for awhile
with the kingdom of god decision no longer disabling the papacy

does the same apply for The Pentarchy mission?

 

[gronak]

Is counting the number of countries the right way to measure success for defender of the faith? This seems to punish defenders if large numbers of small countries start eating each other and consolidate into larger powers. But this phenomenon doesn't seem to have much to do with religion, really.

Maybe a better way to measure would be total development or number of provinces in that faith.



Addendum

Here is an idea: how about measuring defenders of the faith by actual job performance? That is, making defenders earn credit by actually defending fellow nations from infidels.

Every new defender starts at level 1, and earns points each time it answers a defender call to arms and successfully defends. It loses some credit if the war is lost, and it loses a lot if it either declines the call or renders "unsatisfactory condottieri performance". When the defender reaches a certain number of points, it gets promoted (or demoted).

How much each war is worth depends on how big the infidel opponents are. If you keep fighting off Ottomans on behalf of others, you deserve a prize for it.

Maybe make it so it's total development - your development, to prevent the player cheesing it with their super high dev britain, for example.

 

[otaats]

Nice additions.

One tiny complaint - dynamic province name of Zeta remained as 'Kotor' in Turkish. The proper Turkish name for this region is Karadağ.

 

[Felidae]

I like this a lot. First tier is just claiming you're the defender of the faith. As you prove your metal, and defends successfully your brethren, you get additional bonuses as you become the DotF not just in name, but are recognised as such.

This would also introduce a new type of choice when faced with a call to arms. "I don't want to fight this war, but if I do, I'll get those nice bonuses. Also, I'll lose the other bonuses I got from fighting those other wars. Decisions, decisions....", instead of rejecting the call to arms and paying the money to get it back as if nothing happened.
This for me would better represent the "burden" of being the DotF, while also rewarding players fighting wars not just for conquest. So win-win I'd say.

Agreed. I happen to like playing as Reformed Netherlands, and thus often have the Reformed DotF. But if I get a CtA from, say, Reformed Milan against Catholic France, it's a no-brainer to just hit 'no', then go to the Religion tab and pay the pittance 500 ducats from my overflowing trade treasury to get DotF again. That's a bit gamey, and not in the spirit of being DofF. On the other hand, if I had some really nice bonuses stacked up from previous actions, I might not be so eager to refuse the CtA...

Tying it to performance also gets rid of the issue that if you've united the whole HRE under yourself, and it's all converted to your faith - and while you might be one of only a few Catholic nations left (besides your colonies), you've actually done a really good job defending the faith... but you only get the first or second level DotF bonus. Which kinda sucks.

Maybe something like the following?

It takes 100 points to advance a DotF level.

5 points for manually converting a province in your home super-region.
5 points for your Center of Reformation converting any province (this is to give the protestant nations a point investment from the beginning, but only CoRs personally owned by the DotF count. Being a Johnny-come-lately brings no credit).
1 point for converting provinces outside your home super-region and in your colonies.
20ish points for accepting a religious CtA.
-10ish points for losing such a war
0 points for white peace
10ish points for winning (structured to provide incentive to accept even unfavourable wars)
20ish points for force-converting another country
You lose DotF and all progress for refusing a religious CtA.

 

[Vic3RebelUprising]

I like the new DotF changes, but the tier should be based on number of provinces, not countries.

About provoke rebels: it shouldn’t increase the stack, it should cost military mana points.