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Feedback Requested: Espionage

Hello Stellaris Community!

We hope you’ve all had a great holiday season so far! We’ve collected some excellent feedback so far, with over 8000 responses to the two feedback forms to date.

If you want to leave some feedback on Pirates and Crime, there’s still time! The form will be active until next Monday, after which we will close responses.

The topic for this week’s feedback form is Espionage. We’ve often talked about an espionage rework, and know that many of you find espionage rather lackluster outside of certain circumstances. So here’s your chance to let us know what you think!

Here’s what Eladrin said in Dev Diary #364:
Espionage
Espionage is a related system that isn’t satisfying its promise currently, as Mr. Cosmogone reminds me during every design meeting.

It’s difficult to keep track of spy networks, is generally of low impact, and has no real counterplay. But he’s got schemes.
So, do you think espionage is deserving of a rework? What would you like to see in a reworked espionage system? What do you like about the current Espionage system?

Answer all these questions and more on this week’s Feedback Form: Espionage!

We hope you enjoy the rest of your holiday season, and we’ll be back with our last feedback form next week, after which we will return to our regular Dev Diary schedule.
 
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Seeing people talk about spy networks, makes me think about having a new map layer, could see that being cool - particularly if a spy in another empire, maybe can advance the intel of neighbouring countries? I think a visual view of influence would be a lot better than what could be a additional messy UI.
 
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One issue with Espionage (and many other systems in Stellaris) is that they go into details too much and the big problem is that the details are not very interesting. The player is "spirit of the nation" so to speak: least I am not that interested telling specific spy go spy there or go do this exact mission but rather "I am thinking about going to war against this empire, I need to find about their military assets, designs and so on". I don't really care how the spy gets the information - only that I get something. Likewise during the war I want to obscure my fleet movements so maybe I could try to plant false orders to fool enemy spies (or maybe I get fooled by false orders).

Map mode or similar might be helpful.
 
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I think the issue I have with the system is that the effects aren’t always visible or valuable, stealing techs can be nice but the pirates or sabotage ones aren’t as effective. Maybe the effects should scale as the intel or espionage progresses?
 
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envoys either need to turn into full fledged characters or be taken out of the game
espionage should also tie into crime and piracy
maybe look to the better parts of hoi 4's system
 
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I, honestly, think just scrap it. There's way too much danger of making Espionage 'the only thing worth doing'. I know that's gonna get me a lot of red Xs from people who still, for some reason, see promise in espionage, but that's my feedback.
It was part of a paid expansion.
 
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I, honestly, think just scrap it. There's way too much danger of making Espionage 'the only thing worth doing'. I know that's gonna get me a lot of red Xs from people who still, for some reason, see promise in espionage, but that's my feedback.
While I loathe it myself, the fact remains that the covert sabotage stuff is part of a paid DLC (and is the reason why I didn't, and won't, buy that DLC).
 
Any rework of espionage should come alongside a rework of stealth and stealth detection. Even if you wanted to stealth for whatever reason, you mostly can't after a certain point in the game, stealth ability is far outpaced by stealth detection. Even empires that are far far weaker than me shut all stealth vessels down immediately.
 
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1 I think most operations should be ongoing to reduce micro.

2 The overal tone of the operation event text needs to be more positive, every event makes you feel like you are doing something wrong, it's problem after problem and complication after complication demanding more resources or incurring penalties that make you feel like "Omg I suck at spying" for no reason even with operations that end up being succesful.

3 There should be ongoing intelligence operations that are to be performed within your own empire with the objective of masking your empire "Threat" value.
Operation events for this should range from generic hiding WMD sites to spreading propaganda to disguise your in-game crimes.
There should also be ongoing intelligence operations to be performed within other empires with the objective of making their "Threat" value seem increased and exagerated.
"Threat" operations should be able to be exposed by other operations, revealing the actual values to all when complete.

4 Stealth and detection needs to be integrated with espionage. Additionally, cloaking should work differently for military ships and science ships. Science vessels should have more leeway to infiltrate other empires and attempt to do nefarious things

5 Espionage should be more tied to the way your empire sees the galaxy and less to the typical "HAHAHA I STEAL GREEN LAZOR FROM YOU AND PUT A BOMB ON YOUR STARBASE!"
Having more effective intelligence should allow you to see a betetr picture of things you previously couldn't and open up operations to exploit preexisting weaknesses/ opportunities otherwise unavailable.
It should be more about gaining an advantage for yourself and less about direct harm.

6 Espionage needs to have teeth. INtelligence does this now, with things like telling you when other empires are about to go to war with you, but the operations aren't even noticeable when carried out against the AI. I think operations should bring sizeable reddit to the empire doing them. Take the "Fund pirates" operation for example. It doesn't give you much, the pirates suck and are mostly just an annoyinace and cost a fortune to pay for. Imagine if the pirates would perform a raid and bring you stolen lesser artifacts or other loot when succesful?
 
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I honestly like the system as is but have a few ideas that might be interesting if added!

I pretty much only use espionage to raise my base intel level on hostile empires (so the acquire asset operation is pretty much the only one I use) but in that context I find it super useful and would be sad if it disappeared. In the real world, a lot of the major instances of espionage that my non-professional-historian brain is aware of involve that sort of intel gathering (what's going on with this Manhattan Project thing?) and it would be exciting from a role-play perspective if destabilizing technological developments (jump drives, megastructures, sapient AI, juggernaut, colossi) were announced via espionage (along with a chance to steal that technology). In the late game, though, the Sentry Array and other boosts to base intel level make that part of espionage obsolete. It would hurt, but I'd either scrap the sentry array megastructure entirely or just have it able to detect fleets -- not their orders, loadout, etc.

On a more tactical/strategic level, now that leaders are important, assassinating leaders would be both mildly useful and great for RP (and maybe it has destabilizing effects on your empire if your head of state or councilor is assassinated). I'd also love to be able to interfere with the internal politics of another empire by supporting unhappy factions (and maybe even helping them rebel or stage a coup) or aggressively promoting your empire's ethics in your subjects. Explicitly "sabotage" operations would feel more fun and impactful if they were instead, say, shutting down the gateway or hyper relay network for a few years, disabling energy or alloys output from jobs on one of the enemy's main industrial worlds, or (if you're a psionic empire) summing a shroud demon or three in the enemy's space. I love the arm privateers and plant stellarite eggs operations. In general, disruptive operations are nice, but

However, I'd be really, REALLY annoyed if the AI managed to turn off my ecumenopolis and there was nothing I could do about it. I'd like the ability to shore up defensive espionage by assigning envoys to your own empire; if you have a lot of envoys on defense and good decryption on an adversary, you'll likely be able to shut down their operations (and maybe catch their spies and destroy assets). Could being the victim of espionage be made a casus belli?
 
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There needs to be more options like damaging fleets (maybe even destroying a percentage of ships), maybe bribing fleets to turn to your side, steal resources (not just tech) start revolts on planets etc.

Assassinating leaders would also be good, including the current faction leader.

Hive minds having some sort of way to replace populations over a long period of time would also be amazing. Likewise machine intelligence being able to cause AI uprising.

Also, pre ftl civilisations we should be able to decrease their tech level.
 
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The problem of spio is: or is OP, or is useless with one mission useful (like collaboration government in hoi4)...the other thing can be counterable if a player do well (no passive bonus and nothing else) but too the IA or other players not become a anti-espionage with KGB,CIA,MI6 toghether and their resource fail the 99%
 
honestly it needs a rework along side the intel system, personally i kinda want to see it done similarly to the hoi4 espionage system
I disagree, only because the HOI4 espionage system single handedly drove me out of the game with the constant need to babysit your “intel department” or whatever it is called. If that aspect is removed, I could see potential, but in general I wouldn’t say HOI4 is a model to follow
 
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- I would like to see more/different operation types depending on your civics/ethics/traditions. Make the identity of my empire part of the espionage.
- With enough intel we can already get a warning if an empire is preparing for war with us. If we know their ship compositions, we should get tips for our ship designs as well (what do we need to build into our ships to counter them, what is the projected rate of success)
- Influence the diplomatic landscape beyond just extorting favors or reducing the opinion on someone. I want to improve their opinion of me via propaganda, maybe pressure their government into a deal by rallying their citizens against them. These would be high level operations of course.
- If en envoy dies, replace him. I cant't count how often I was waiting to do a certain operation, only to come back later and find that the envoy died and the slot has been left empty, losing me all my infiltration progress.
 
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Espionage feels weak for a few reasons. first, its micro-intensive, making the player have to engage with the subsystem a lot to get the most out of it. It is resource intensive, which is okay, when you hit mid-game and have a lot less to sink influence into but during the early game where spycraft may be the most important (as you know the least about enemy builds at this point) you are far better off sending your envoys to serve on first contacts which generate influence, and putting said influence into map expansions.
This then wraps into a lot more effort and cost having to be sunk in to spy on rivals and more hostile powers than friendlier ones who can give you reasonable amounts of intel from embassies and one or two pacts. personally, I never had to use the steal map option once as most of the time and friendlier empires will fill it in for me and if not one spy ship can resolve any missed points on the map.

The envoys also feel less like leaders and more like a resource, which while reasonable as people didn't like using officials for it, this ends up making their impact far more minimal.

Rather than how well you can get in being directly tied to their relation to you and their Diplo statuses (Closed borders, primary species only, etc) one of the big factors should be crime and stability, the less stable a planet/system/empire is the easier it is to infiltrate. on that I also think the player can choose where to target, each one being more influential than the last but at the cost of risk

-Planet or system, the easiest. for when you want to do a quick job or to target a specific leader. short time to invest and has fairly easy results, the defender in a way shouldn't need to worry about this as well as any issues can be resolved easily. much like crime issues spurred by a spy on these levels can be reigned in with soldiers or Enforcers so long as a planet is properly managed.

-Sectors, Should be treated as the default, middling in challenge the goal here is affecting a larger scale or planetary issues en-mass, here you can incite sector based revolts, convince systems to join you, push for piracy, and other things that can weaken an area for conquest or distract an enemy. nothing deliberating but limiting

-Empire, this is espionage at the highest degree, it should be hard for an empire to do so unless they're built for it. at its top end it shouldn't just be crippling an opponent or weakening them but actively pushing them to align with you, this can include getting assets as council leaders, shifting research focuses, and cultural changes. if you are doing stuff at this level it should feel very cold war-like.


I am personally fine with envoys as a concept but they should also go back to being leaders, a lot of the stuff written for them is leftovers from when they were. the issue was making them officials opposed to their own leader type. officials should have some expansion in use, though that is a separate topic; envoys however should have their range a bit more expanded to cover this and to streamline espionage options.

Envoys as they are tossed to improve diplo, go to a pan-galactic group (federations, GC,) or sent to spy. Each of these is fine as diplomats tend to also serve as espionage assets in the real world but this also goes into the cost-weight that espionage suffers from, most of the time you will get better results in improving relations or sending envoys to your federation than sending them to the GC or to commit espionage acts.

With this, I would suggest if an envoy is sent to an empire at any level (Planet/Sector/Empire) they do double duty to maintain or shift relations, just at the cost of possible efficiency, and have the player choose which one they rather focus on rather than committing to one or the other.

Envoys sent to Pan galactic groups in turn will also serve as espionage assets on most if not all members just at a significant delay to efficiency and locked to more surface-level acts. (The idea is that these envoys can serve as more of a bridgehead to save you time digging into other empires, as opposed to new espionage acts starting from zero you'd start at say ten or fifteen for example). on a federation and vassal end, outside the standard federation, the other members should not know everything about each other, just that intelligence gain would be much easier due to integrated politics. weaker members of a group should be able and try to build assets in secret, especially if they're not fond of their current dynamic or wish to get a higher position.

Envoys as governors will also focus on species relations and counter-espionage; while ideally, each governor type would deal with it to a degree via traits they would be the ones more built to root out localized agents without the player having to worry too much about the hunting of enemy envoys.

Finally, I think there should be a new classification of holding that is hidden from an empire. These Clandestine holdings are the most numerous and any empire can establish them if they have enough infiltration in another at the cost of significant damage to relations and destruction of the holding if discovered. Clandestines will also be used by criminals or pirates if regional stability is low enough. Empires can also establish Clandestine holdings on their own planets to deal with certain issues, boost espionage effects, or generate more "positive" crime at the cost of pop happiness and stability if revealed.

Clandestine Holdings have 4 flavours
-Blacksites, these are the ones players develop in personal systems, other empires, or in vassals, they can serve as more powerful variants of vassal holdings and other stability-boosting buildings and counter-espionage internally, and in vassals and other empires, they can serve as flat boosts to espionage effects as well. the caveat is that they can be lost far more easily than any other holding you can build
-Criminal holdings, self self-explanatory however players should be able to found them, and like Blacksites serve to boost espionage just to a lower degree.
-Hidden Nodes, this is a gesalt-only flavour and allows gestalt pops to be established in non-gesalt empires (ideally to give a hivemind invasion/ secret conversion feel)
-Rogue operations, these are ones internal AI may establish in preparation to rebel or if the the planet/ sector is unstable enough to generally siphon off income from the system into its governor pocket, a bit of a transitory phase between Criminal holdings and Blacksites.

Clandestine Holdings like default criminal jobs will siphon workers to fill them but their exact job will be hidden till the holding is discovered. upon discovery, the crime generated (if any) will be lowered and you gain the option to destroy it. all these holdings will still give some benefit to the host empire but it is worthwhile to keep at the risk of stability. Every Clandestine Holding on a planet has a higher chance to be found, based on enforcer, soldiers, and governor type. Blacksites will also give a CB to the empire that built it to remove any others they have Criminal holdings if founded by an empire have plausible deniability and can only be destroyed (unless it's a criminal Megacorp).

TDLR; Envoys the base of diplomacy and Espionage have little presence despite being one of the core mechanics of these systems.
 
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I've waited for this survey since the warfare one showed up. But i didn't expect it to be the first thing in the new year. I nearly missed this one :eek:.

Like i always say: Espionage need a rework and i really hope it get some real impact in the future. I made a lot of suggestions over the years and it would be incredible cool to see at least some things from my wish list (or even complete ideas) find their way into the game.
 
I only use spies to determine how powerful an enemy's military strength is. Once I have an idea about that, it serves no real further purpose.
 
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I am very sorry that my forms are rather negative.
This one in particular. as Espionage has no teeth, no use, and the few espionage systems you might want to use, have needless cooldowns on them.

Also how come it takes me a century and a half to infiltrate a Stone age civilization so I can teach them basic math and agriculture, while I am at the same time sending stellarite devourer egg bombs to local megacorp's star system?
 
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CIv4 had an Espionage DLC which I initially feared, but came to really like as I used it -- basically the opposite of the Stellaris DLC, which I was a bit hyped about, but became disappointed as I used it (and then stopped using it).

Here are the basic features of the Civ4 DLC ("Beyond the Sword"):

- You got a new resource -- Espionage Points ("EP") -- and accumulated them. Your current total was a defense barrier against enemy operations.

- Operations cost EP, so if you played the spy game, you became an easier target for enemy spy games. You had to invest in EP generation if you wanted to use a lot of spy operations.

- EP generation came with tech, buildings, and a specialist job ("Spy"). There was also a Spy unit which seems confusing since it's the same name as the specialist job, but in practice it was not confusing. There were also some government-specific EP sources which you could opt into by changing your government civics.

- Overall, higher tech meant you were better, so high-tech empires could bring a lot of EP to bear against an opponent -- but big empires had options, too, including spamming the specialist job ("Spy") to out-produce the high-tech empire and steal their juicy tech.

- Spy operations couldn't wreck your empire, but they could steal techs and destroy specific defenses (where the enemy spy unit was standing) making you more vulnerable to war. They could also make your cities unhappy and thus cost you production if the city rioted, or even cost you the city if it was inclined to defect (e.g. if it had been recently conquered).

There were also Great Spies (like Great Scientists / Great Engineers / Great Generals / etc.) who could be expended for some specific buff, and World Wonders which gave more EP or enabled new ways to earn EP or defended you against specific operations.


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My proposal for fixing Stellaris Espionage:

- First build a Domestic Espionage system which uses a new resource (Espionage Points / "EP") and spends them to pursue domestic-targeted operations. Things like persuading specific pops to have your governing Ethics, or to join a specific Faction / leave an unloved Faction, or remove a Criminal Syndicate branch office (or maybe any unwelcome branch office), and so on. Maybe reduce crime, maybe interact with Mercenary fleets in your space or even pirates (to bribe them to join you).

- Price the domestic operations reasonably, and adjust them according to player feedback.

- Give a variety of ways to earn EP, including base empire resources, buildings, a trade policy, civics (e.g. Police State has Enforcers generate EP, Citizen Service has Soldiers generate EP, Shadow Council has Administrators generate EP, etc.), several Council positions, a Starbase building ("Listening Post"), and so on.

- Might work best in combo with some other government-limiting suggestions, like a cap on Sectors, so if you get too big then you either need to spend EP to keep your Frontier Worlds in line, or you need to do something else to keep them stable (which should reduce their productivity a bit since risk vs. production is a worthwhile equation), or like a regular slave rebellion mecahnic which requires armies to land on your own colonies to suppress -- or domestic spy operations to assassinate slave leaders & agitators.

- When all that domestic espionage stuff works, you have a well-tested base price list for domestic operations -- use that to scale foreign operation costs using the same resource ("EP").


Tech should give better EP options, but buildings and so on might be best used by Wide empires, so there's both a role for focused "tall" and for sprawling blobs.
 
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