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Feedback Requested: Pirates and Crime

Hello Stellaris Community!

We hope you all have had/are having a great holiday season! Last week’s War and War Resolution Feedback Form had over 4000 responses, and we’d like to take the time to thank you all for your feedback. There are certainly some insights to be gained from the feedback you offered, and we’re excited to see some trends emerging - and combined with the rather large sample size - we feel we have a solid amount of community feedback that can inform potential future development on War and War resolution in Stellaris.

For those of you who didn’t see last week’s feedback post, we are taking advantage of the break in dev diaries to collect feedback to inform future Stellaris development. This is not a promise or a guarantee that there will be a rework on any of these mechanics at any point, this is to collect community feedback in a centralized place so that if the devs do a rework in a particular area, we have an idea of the community’s expectations and what you like and dislike about the current implementation of features in Stellaris.

Today we’re taking another look at another topic from Dev Diary #364 -Sights Unseen: Pirates and Crime.

This is what Eladrin said in DD#364:
Pirates and Crime
Space Piracy is a popular fantasy - we touched on it a bit with the Treasure Hunters origin in Grand Archive, but they could mesh well with the Nomads idea mentioned earlier or even a factional political expansion. Crime and Deviancy aren’t terribly engaging systems at the moment either, and might benefit from wider examination.

So, Stellaris Community, what do you like/dislike about Pirates and Crime in Stellaris? Fill out our Piracy and Crime Feedback form and let us know!

From all of us here on Stellaris, thank you for taking the time to offer your feedback, and thanks for playing Stellaris!
 
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Im not opposed to these aspects of the game in and of themselves but as others have mentioned, it currently feels just tedious and another thing to manage/pop up to deal with.

I guess its a question of how do you represent crime & piracy. If you play a Star Trek federation type empire, there will be by definition very little crime in this utopia. Same in theory for a Galactic Empire police state. Machine empires? Guessing there would be very little crime.

As for piracy, currently this is just tedious busy-work, particularly mid game onwards when you have sufficient fleet power.
 
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However, one should be careful with new or changed operations.
"Kill enemy leader" sounds great in theory, but will be extremely frustrating if it is used by the AI vs yourself. Especially since there is no real counter-espionage in Stellaris, sou you cannot even protect yourself against that (encryption is too passive and has a very limited impact).

I could very easily see this issue being fixed by having simple game rule at the start "Espionage ON / OFF / LIMITED.

And yeah. Killing Leaders is a bit too much, that I do agree.
 
Maybe have crime being a group that tries to sell a thing (drugs, slaves, bonuses in espionage, etc. being better or worse in some of the things) Have them want to buy cheap and sell expensive, have leaders in crime increase (and sometime reduce) their effectiveness, if they get to a certain level, have them want to make their own nations, and even want to reduce crime in the end if they are successful.

Crime is a lack of power outside of the crime, so let it want to expand if the lack is available.
 
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I put this in the form:

The problem with them now is that they're more annoying than engaging. Building hangar bays on most starbases takes care of most piracy, and just being xenophile takes care of most crime. What those two don't take care of can be mitigated with moving a fleet or building Precinct Houses--one-click solutions that aren't very satisfying. What we need are systems that 1) Make Sense and 2) Are fun to deal with.

What if our leaders' traits had a big impact on their sector's/planet's crime rate, and vice versa? An official going to a high-crime place would be more likely to become corrupt, and a corrupt official going to a low-crime place might raise the crime rate. But before that can really be fun, the "crime rate" needs to matter more. ANY crime should have a negative impact, even if it's small at first.

So what should the impact of crime BE? In the real world, people usually either steal physical stuff (i.e., Consumer Goods) or steal money (in Stellaris, energy). So it seems like crime on a planet should negatively impact the consumer goods and energy production of that planet first. Then, as crime gets worse, it makes the neighborhood a less desirable place to live--so amenities, pop growth rate, and immigration pull should all decrease (and emigration push should increase). Eventually, as the criminals organize, they should start stealing minerals and alloys to build ships--and become space pirates! (This can mirror how gangs in the real world eventually displace the government as the holders of the state's monopoly on violence.)

Once there are space pirates, they shouldn't be destroying mining and science stations as they do now. They *want* resources to be produced so that they can steal them! They can set up a protection racket in systems where they're strong enough, or skim an ever-increasing percentage off all the traded resources that flow through the systems that they dominate. (This is where it would be really helpful to have an actual functioning trade system where resources produced on one planet get shipped to other planets. Without civilian supply ships, there's nothing to pirate!)

Pirates also need places to hide so that they can't be easily found and destroyed by a player's regular navy. For instance, a *hidden* asteroid station could function like the real-life Tortuga or New Providence in Caribbean. Pirate ships should also probably come equipped with cloaking by default--and perhaps cloaking that's a step better than their empire's current detection rating. That way they can just cloak whenever they're not attacking, and let the regular navy ships pass them by! They should also be able to move from system to system if a fleet is hunting them, raiding targets as they go in order to meet their ship maintenance costs. (Which is another reason why we should HAVE fleet maintenance costs beyond energy and alloys anyway. See my War Resolution post, last paragraph.)

If the pirates get strong enough to start defeating a player's fleets, they should eventually make a grab for the government by a rebellion or by simply invading the capitol. (Not sure if we want to make a playable "Pirate Republic Megacorp" that players can encourage on purpose, or just have the takeover be a "lose" condition, but I'd sure love to see it happen to AI empires!)

TLDR: Crime should lead to piracy, and piracy should lead to a fun cat-and-mouse game with real consequences if you lose.
This. Why are pirates blowing up bases and fighting my fleet directly, which is a fight they're always going to lose? At most if piracy gets to a certain level, I should get a a pop up "pay or we'll destroy the bases", and once they do that, their fleet should scatter. (Perhaps all pirates should have cloaking.)

I find the patrolling system so tedious that post-dyson swarms I often don't even bother to collect trade outside my core sector.

As for crime and crime sydnicates, instead of having absolute numbers, have enforcers etc... decrease crime by a percentage so I can't just have one hall of justice end all crime. Even Judge Dredd can't stop crime.
 
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I don't like crime. I don't care about pirates.

Really both of these need to be fixed.

We have the space barbarians which basically do nothing unless they spawn the Great Khan or get in a relatively advanced empire's way. My suggestion would be as follows:

1. Rebrand the raiders / barbarians as pirate nations. This gives them some stickability in the early middle game. Think of them as Boskone in the Lensmen saga by EE Doc Smith
2. Allow them to access the Megacorp crime syndicate mechanisms. Add create pirate base to options which trashes trade in the target but can be combatted by boosting fleet patrols. Scrap the spawning pirates.
3. Tweak the mercenary enclave to become a pirate enclave. You can still set them up but it trashes your reputation with non-criminal factions (and boosts it with pirate factions). Provides money to owner to offset loss of trade from surrounding systems - means that pirate enclaves will almost always be set up on the border of two empires (realistic?) You get to use their fleets if you pay.
4. Criminal Megacorps become wannabe pirate factions - an established Criminal Megacorp is no different from a Day One spawned pirate faction
5. Great Khan event becomes Pirate King event

This makes the "barbarians" (now pirates) a threat from Day One. Their AI would be focussed on keeping what they have and only responding to provocations from players / npc (like fallen empires)
Why not both ?
There can be both marauder and pirates micro nation as well as both mercenary and pirate enclave, they have different flavor and not the same base use
Though a civic and or government type where you have pirate enclave instead of mercenary could be interesting, but most Empire probably would prefer regular mercenary
 
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This... the more crime there is, the bigger and better the black market. And if you have crime on your worlds, you get better deals on the black market.

Add Galactic Black Market. Allow undercutting Galactic Market and influencing it.

Allow some smuggling. Violating border control so the Pirates/Crime Empires have to keep some logistic going for other empire to suffer their presence instead of shadow affecting them across galaxy with other side having no means to reach them.
 
For me pirates are just a micromanagement anmoyance. I know i habe enough fleet i just need to put some ships on patrol. Than cause pf a new system i need to readjust the patrols but forget it and than habe pirates i need to deal with.
I think there should be a mechanic that binds forces to keep your empire trade running but maybe it should be abstracted so that you do not have the microing to do.
Regarding crime: is something i think shouldnt be so relevant for a space faring nation. Crime is something for sim city and stuff like that.
I think it should be in as it allows for some interesting roleplaying elements of galactic syndicates but fighting crime should for me lineing be more abstracted into decisions, policies and their corresponding trade offs.
 
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Piracy and Crime need to be integrated into the game's economy. Deviancy and Divergence should be a similar, but not identical, mechanic for Hive minded empires.

The first rule of Crime is that getting it to zero should be nearly impossible. Maybe one ascension path can pull it off?

The impulse to disagree with the rules of society and break them is universal. Crime as a percentage goes up with economic problems, unhappiness, and exposure to ideologies that don't align with the dominant ones. Suppression of crime *doesn't eliminate it*, it *scales it down*; this scaling down can be at the cost of generating more unhappiness.

The Crime you see is a product of how much of the populace *wants* to Crime and how much they *do* Crime. Most policing can only slightly suppress the 2nd.

The second rule is that Crime and Piracy should be connected. Crime is the colony-based effect, Piracy is the map-based effect.

Piracy should occur on the map. To me, this implies a slightly more complex map; unstable and uncharted hyperlanes should exist, and pirates should hide in systems reachable by those unstable hyperlanes; these systems flicker in and out of reach, with the migratory pirates having to evacuate before their hyperlanes evaporate.

The third rule is that Crime is a social construct. Crime should act differently in different ethics; in fact, I'd have a Crime for each ethic lined up - doing things aligning with the opposite Ethos!

Egalitarian - Authoritarian : Elitism - Levelers
Rationalist - Spirituals : Quacks - Heresy
Militarist - Pacifist : Peaceniks - Interventionists
Xenophobe - Xenophile : Galacticists - Isolationists

The forth rule is that Crime and Factions should be related.
 
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I like that Piracy and Crime are there for flavor, so my number one feedback is: Don't get rid of them.

But the current implementation is certainly rather boring. I liked when pirates had a bigger chance of spawning in unoccupied systems next to yours, disincentivizing border gore. Right now, there's really no reason to take bad systems, which means you'll be leaving holes in your empire for most of the game.

Pirates that move around are a must too. Oh, and have them stop destroying your stations, that's just annoying micro. Pirates wouldn't want to destroy their source of income anyway. Have them occupy the system instead, preventing you from getting anything from it until you deal with them.

For Crime, I want to see it become a bit more of a real issue and not something that just doesn't exist unless you're playing wrong. Give us a reason to ever build Precinct Houses.
 
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Dear Paradox-Stellaris Team!

In my opinion the potential of "holdings" tab in planetary menu is criminally underutilized and there should be more mechanics for AI-controlled (and to lesser degree user-controlled) Empires interacting with this tab, including Empires without directly controlled systems/planets. Crime is a perfect test case for this kind of things.

Also, in regards for Piracy. Please, indtroduce some kind of shipping mechanics and tie piracy to this mechanics. Steal from Cities: Skylines if needed.
 
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I'm a little late to this discussion and maybe this has already been mentioned. My main concern is any kind of mechanic that the player has no agency to prevent or control. I bring this up in this specific thread mainly because of all the posts I've read in the past complaining about crime syndicates and how you have little or no recourse to get them off your planet. I don't even know if that is still a thing in the game or not since I never bought that DLC (mainly due to this reason). Just hoping any changes to crime (or anything else for that matter), keep this in mind.
 
What if pirates played like a nomad empire with secret asteroid bases around the galaxy, this is the foundation. What if after multiple pirate nomads are established they meet together to form their version of the galactic community, a cool idea for example would be if an empire is about to build a sentry array (that would reveal all their secret pirate bases) all the pirates come together to declare that empire a crisis to their continued existence and throw everything they have against them (kind of like the sentry array is a aetherophasic engine).
This is a good way forward. I like the idea and reality of pirates preying on shipping lanes and at choke points, so the basic foundation is fine. However, it just seems random and as much annoying now as anything else. Pirates could be more like the great Kahn to some more limited degree, or like factions of trade leagues with secret bases - each chasing their own agenda. It would be more fun for empires to go pirate hunting when needed, and lessen piracy by destroying bases. Void worms will get worse if you don't kill their concentrations, why not pirates??
 
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Crime and by that measure criminal syndicates never made sense because the player on the receiving end just has one course of action which means, there is no thought, no engagement, and no fun. Criminal syndicates at most should consume resources but provide tangible benefits that the target empire might actually find useful but depending on cost to their economy may decide to just not share the results. As in, syndicates don't want to destabilize a world because it reduces their own profits and brings notice to them - but what if they skim off a percentage while boosting stability through amenities and the like... then it becomes fun.

as for pirates - pirates are just dumb. First off where do they even come from and you can just put a base on every part of the trade route and remove links in between to limit or remove their effect and gateways autonegate them. it just adds nothing to the game and the idea that these same pirates never affected gestalt empires because they had "no trade" while obviously moving resources around was just dumb to be blunt.

I would make pirates purely an espionage function and allow them to target resources as a whole in the target empire
 
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I would like to see trade routes simulated with non-interactable travelling cargo vessels (not visible on the map). It would help make the galaxy feel more 'alive' and perhaps give pirates something to actually do. The performance cost would be minimal as they'd just follow an already-defined route.
 
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i would say that pirats need have more stuff but alos should not total ruin your empire NOT AT FIRST TIME YOU SEEE THEM... like you have pirats over and over and at some points they become not evne stronger but smarter ( ai gona pretend it is ) like they now spawn in the same way doing nothing like YEE FOR SURE THAT SUPER EMPIRE NOT DESTRY OUR FLYING ROCK FIRST MOMENT THEY FIND ANY TIME KILLING SOME OF OUR SHIPS AND CREW AND TAKING RESORCES... what if at first it was just base and pirate ships have big chance to jump out if fight and come back nexst time... and at some point they do somethign that could look like player or normal ai empire spy on you and do some spy stuff... like meyby pirates have now one of your weapon as tech steal? or your trade protect star base in region lose 1-2 systems making biger chance for yet another pirates spawn near by, meyby they dont use base at all now and have one biger ship that alos can jump out of fight but having like 50% chances and not 90% like others.

damm there could be even pirates crime clans that dont have base that we can just destroy and to kill them for good you and other empires need fight agisnt they prite outpost and crime events... even normal pirates near you worlds culd make criem on it worst... and meyby some pirates for hive mind ? rouge units stealing resorces from world in few hyperlines from they base ?
 
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Honestly, I'm down entirely to just lurking here after not playing in years, so correct me if I'm wrong about how things currently or could work, but:

Crime Syndicates should operate behind one or more "front empires", rather than wearing the obvious burglar outfit and announcing their intentions to everyone they meet. An empire might meet both the front and the syndicate without (officially) connecting the two together. Eventually other empires will discover that they're working together and then that they're actually one and the same. I don't know if you'd display them to more knowledgeable empires like lord/vassals or federation members.

Pirates are mostly independent contractors and mostly don't have the resources to generate empire-grade objects (e.g., colonies, warships - though maybe Strike Craft?). Pirates can be empire assets, either as criminal fronts or privateering contract-holders, and these would more likely have the advanced resources. Substantial Pirate bases should still be map objects, but closer to Anomalies that warships/transports "research". If a Pirate base gets to a 1-Pop size, you're now talking about a wildcat colony and I'm not sure if you'd just follow standard rules for taking over another colony or add a wrinkle.

Both of these options require the ability to have a number of different empires/factions with segments of control in a single system. There are more options that open up if you add that functionality, including secret bases/stations for espionage.
 
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Criminal Heritage could be reworked as a societal origin, if we get a rework of the current system of origins and permanent civics. For instance, origins could be split into three categories: world, species, and society. Most permanent civics could be changed to societal origins, including Criminal Heritage; ideally also Shadow Council, which makes much more sense as a societal origin than a civic. Some societal origins could perhaps also have a special effect where they masquerade as being another - until sufficient intel is gained, they could appear as a regular Prosperous Unification. This could be used by both Shadow Council and Criminal Heritage, where the latter insist on being perfectly legitimate businesspersons.

Cordane's suggestion could then be approximated by allowing criminal heritage megacorps to enter commercial pacts that allow the creation of normal branch offices (but with a higher risk of random crime-increasing events, and greater vulnerability to intel/operations of the criminal syndicate). In the absence of a commercial pact, they would be able to create criminal branch offices whose owner is unknown to the target. If their criminal nature ever gets exposed, however, they lose the ability to enter commercial pacts with anyone. There would also need to be some Influence-costing action that allow megacorps to take over an existing branch office through competition rather than war, since concealed criminal heritage empires could otherwise not seize branch offices outside of commercial pacts without exposing themselves.
 
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Piracy is intimately connected with trade, and while trade remains a purely local or intra-empire thing, it won't ever make a lot of sense. It also does not make sense that the player cannot pirate the enemy trade routes for profit or logistical damage, u-boat style.
 
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I am maybe late to this thread, but my main issue with piracy is that dealing with it is tedious. I theoretically like the feature as something you have to deal with to support a trade empire - but because the methods of suppressing piracy (assigning patrol fleets) are so tedious and need to be re-done every time you go to war, I end up either modding piracy out of the game or simply ignoring it besides killing the pirate fleets that spawn.

There really need to be true automation options for dealing with piracy - either an "automatically suppress piracy" function for fleets (similar to EU4's autonomous rebel suppression or pirate hunting), or (even better IMO) an option to disperse your fleet to deal with piracy. Dispersing the fleet to hunt pirates would make it unavailable, requiring some time to re-gather when you need it - but also automatically apply pirate suppression throughout your empire without the need for pathing or fleets moving about.
 
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Small Novella warning, if you’re not interested in reading a long two page bit on what I would like to see, please pass on, I just wanted to put my thoughts out there for the devs, to shoot some ideas for things I think would be really cool to add to the game.



Hello, I was hoping to be able to write up a whole thing for your "What do you want out of stellaris" question a while back and was unable to find time to write anything up at the time due to a busy schedule. That being said, I spend a lot of time playing as mega-corps, both Criminal Syndicates and normal eco empires (I've also tried playing as a Merc company, but not being able to actually rent out your own fleets makes it a little dull, you more just feel like the parent company for a bunch of private merc companies. and I think there's something fun to be had in looking into adding contracting features later on, but that's not what I'm here to discuss.). Personally, because of my play-style I deal a lot with the trade systems, piracy, and espionage, and think that they're not only interlinked, but crucial to the playstyle. This being said, these are my hopes. One: that Piracy will be linked to crime overall, it should be impossible to have 0 crime, it should be more of a half-life thing, where you can have less and less, but never none (barring things like hive minds, because individuals aren't sentient). Crime itself needs a major rework, but it should be something you're always concerned with a bit, you have to manage your empire, and if dealing with crime was as easy as building a few police stations and rooting out the criminals, we wouldn't have any crime in real life, which just isn't the case. as crime develops on your worlds it creates a "Branch office" called a Criminal Hideout, it's on the same page, but like overlord encampments things it should be it's own tab. as you have more crime it will develop more criminal enterprises to take advantage of the things that are plentiful on the planet, syphoning off those resources, making enforcement really important to make sure you're getting all of the resources you want from your world. As a Criminal Syndicate, I think that instead of building a branch office, you should Hijack the local Criminal Hideouts for yourself, which would limit (to a degree the piracy that will happen at high crime in your empire, making criminal syndicates have a minor positive, making them not quite as annoying, sometimes it's better to let the mob run the crime than to let the hooligans go crazy). Similarly, I think that "Intel" on criminal hideouts should be locked behind an enforcement resource, which dictates how much enforcement you have, how effectively it fights crime, and how much intel you have on your criminal elements. This would make crime more meaningful, impactful, and actually relevant to gameplay, allowing empires to really play around with the feature. this also allows for criminal syndicates to be more unique, and not just make playing a normal mega-corp unfun, and you have to evict every criminal syndicate from your trade partners in order to establish your branch office, but makes doing so relevant, as your branch offices would lose resources due to bad crime, possibly giving you an option for something like private police companies in branch offices. Now, how does all this tie into piracy, I think that at a certain stage of crime development a Pirate port/hideout should be built, and that this should syphon resources to fund piracy in your empire, meaning that if you have bad crime, and a strong economy, you're going to have strong pirates that are going to be a real threat as they have more resources to do as they please. Now, to touch on the last two things that I mentioned at the beginning, Trade and espionage, starting with trade. I hope that trade will become a resource that will be used sort of like a GDP, of sorts. Making an actual currency resource, and not just energy credits (EC) (though trade agreements with a Gestalt should be in EC because they would have little use for real currency.) I think that this should just be your trade value, as we currently have it, I don’t think it should automatically be converted into EC, because this sort of devalues trade and resource management. Being able to actually accumulate and spend trade value should be important, and using the market through regular/recurring purchases should be how you use this to generate resources. Generating energy with trade just feels cheep, and I never feel a need to build a single generator district or power world ever, I constantly joke about powering my worlds by burning money in a furnace. Having Crime directly impact your resource production (and particularly trade, through things like piracy, and planetary crime) will add a lot of depth to eco empires in my opinion, and using trade value as the measurement for “Economy” in the GalCom could make stacking economy an actually viable way to generate political power, as right now the only real way to do it is through fleet strength, though you can get a decent amount from pops, if you do it right (economy is usually a joke stat for political weight as it doesn’t matter how much more of everything you produce than anyone, there just isn’t any weight there, which doesn’t make sense as economic weight in the real world is often the most important, and is only ever set aside by military weight, similarly, I think that all things that generate diplo-weight should generate influence, as right now the only way to get influence consistently is through military strength which makes very little sense). Lastly: Espionage, this is one that’s near to my heart, as I really love the idea of information brokers/spy nations, but espionage is utterly unremarkable. First, I don’t actually think a lot needs to change to make it alright, as it currently exists basic espionage has it’s place, but if you want to lean into it, it quickly becomes underwhelming. Enter, Spy Networks, if you guessed I was going to suggest another thing in the branch office tab, they you guessed right. Spy networks should work similarly to criminal hideouts/organizations in that they should be a tab that when you lack the required information, should be blacked out, so you can’t see what’s happening there, or who owns it, I think that there are some unique mechanics that you could add, such as shadow wars, using resources, and things like codebreaking, and strong/experienced leaders, in order to usurp spy networks from other factions, helping you to establish dominance in the spy/information world. But, in essence, you would have a branch office, which you could develop as it progresses, through a combination of how high your intel level is, and how long the network has been developing on that world. This should only be available to the espionage tradition. And the espionage tradition should also provide bonuses that increase the difficulty of detecting these networks, which should still be through enforcement, though vs encryption as opposed to crime. This would make them very hard to root out for factions that specialize in spying such as taking spy civics. These Spy Networks should allow you to syphon resources at the cost of risk (which should count against your encryption to make it more discoverable). The first building should be guaranteed, and it should just be the Spy Network Headquarters, which provides a small amount of intel gain, this should be able to be upgraded, and this should be the primary way a spy empire gains intel on an empire, basic spying should really only develop low level intel “They’re looking to declare war on you, this is generally what their territory looks like, here’s their capital, ETC” making the capital the place where you would probably have to start your Spy Networks for most factions. Anyways, I obviously have too many ideas about how I would love to see this implemented, so if you want to pick my brain more I give the community team permission to DM me on Discord, I’m in the discord as zodrickzheioh. But I think you guys get the idea. Anyways, I hope you like the idea, I have wanted this for a long time, and would love to see more depth be added to this part of the game. That being said, I think that these are all excellent opportunities, because they’re additional features, and you don’t have to interact with them if you don’t want to, just build a police force, run a police state, be a Fascist, or a Gestalt and you should crush all these with ease due to enforcement bonuses. Anyways, I hope everyone’s having a good time, and I can’t wait to see what’s next for Stellaris.
 
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