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Feedback Requested: War and War Resolution

Hello Stellaris Community!

With the devs off on holidays, and a rare four Thursdays in a row free, we decided we would commandeer your regularly scheduled Thursday dev diary slot to gather some feedback that may help inform development at some point in the future. Here on Stellaris, we work on rather long timelines, the content for 2025 has been in-development for some time already, and while we can't wait to share those things with you, our objective here is to inform potential future development based off the topics discussed in Stellaris Dev Diary #364 - Sights Unseen.

We are going to spend the next four weeks collecting feedback on what the Community likes and dislikes about the current version of Stellaris, and your expectations for certain features that were discussed.

While having an open conversation worked really well for Dev Diary #364, and we thank you for sharing your thoughts there, a more structured approach is required for something that might sit for a year or two before it gets used, if it gets used at all.

It's important to note that this is not a confirmation or guarantee that any topics discussed here will appear in the game at any point.

Warfare and War Resolution
At some point in the future, I’d like to see us revisit war and war resolution, and enable more of the scenarios that occur in the “Stellaris Cinematic Universe” of our trailers. When the Gamma Aliens attacked the UNE colony of Europa VII, the Commonwealth of Man did not wait patiently for an invitation to war before summoning the Apocalypse. Humanity was threatened, and they acted. More fluid rules around joining and leaving wars are needed, and betrayal is not supported to my satisfaction. (Secret Fealty exists, but I don’t find it enough in its current state - other mechanics currently prevent them from seizing the chance for freedom at what would be the most opportune moments.)

Without further ado, we present the War and War Resolution feedback form. This form will be available to leave feedback on until next Thursday, at which point we will read through the feedback, and prepare a report for the developers that outlines what the community likes/dislikes, and their expectations for a future rework or expansion.

Thank you for taking the time to offer your feedback, and thank you for playing Stellaris!
 
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I posted before but thought of something else recently--I really wish there was more diversity in the AI's approach to ship and fleet design.

Most of the time, the AI fleet comps consist of:
- Lots of corvettes and frigates compared to larger ships
- Lots of kinetics with smaller amounts of laser/plasma with an occasional disruptor/missile

This means you're almost always best off with lightly shielded carrier battleships.

An experience that recently drove the point home--in the last run I had to play against the spiritualist fallen empire and my fleet got absolutely annihilated despite having a 2:1 advantage in numerical fleet strength. I figured it out when I realized their ship loadouts--they were using lots of bypass (arc emitters), torpedoes and plasma, and had a ton of shielding with shield hardening, which is totally different from normal AI behavior and countered my comp forcing adaptation.

There are a lot of youtube videos online about basic ship design, it seems like it shouldn't be too hard to program the AI to randomly pick a strategy. For example, maybe once an empire researches disruptors, it throws a curveball by going full disruptors on its fleets, which is pretty devastating if the opponent doesn't get shield or armor hardening.

Also I think the consensus on the internet is that torpedo cruisers are all around superior to frigates, so it seems like the AI should use those instead once it gets the tech.
 
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For war exhaustion my casual thoughts on it is that it should be an overall empire stat rather than war specific. It doesn't make sense to me that an empire can be in a series of wars one after the other with less problem than one war of the same total length. It should be something that your empire has which cools off when you're at peace, and different wars contribute to the uptick differently.

Secondly maxing out war exhaustion or going high with it seems like a great opportunity to start situations. No magic "in two years your society quits". Instead have events popping up that we can respond to representing the various peoples in our empire protesting, or in the case of gestalts the mental toll and possible fragmentation.
Perhaps we could also have the opposite effect for fanatic militarists: Situations and discontent brew if you are NOT at war
 
Perhaps we could also have the opposite effect for fanatic militarists: Situations and discontent brew if you are NOT at war

I wouldn’t necessarily like a system where fanatic militarists always want to be at war, but one where they want to intervene in wars or go to wars for specific reasons in line with your empire would be good. Like if there was a system where we could intervene in wars an empire where we had good relationships with, that was at war with an empire we’re not good with, lead to a significant push to intervene.
 
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I wouldn’t necessarily like a system where fanatic militarists always want to be at war, but one where they want to intervene in wars or go to wars for specific reasons in line with your empire would be good. Like if there was a system where we could intervene in wars an empire where we had good relationships with, that was at war with an empire we’re not good with, lead to a significant push to intervene.
I think the way to go for militarists would be to make them discontent if there's a "world war" equivalent happening that they aren't part of. You choose what to do with it, but they're not happy if the state of the galaxy is being shaped by a major war and you're sitting it out (this would probably include MAJOR issues if you try to sit out the War in Heaven).

Joining ongoing wars is necessary for that, but I also think at this point we need some way to leave ongoing wars anyway so the two could be added together.
 
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Is there a way to unfollow this thread? Since this is a dev diary its somehow different from a regular thread, and the unfollow button is not where I expect it to be..
 
I didn’t react to your comment but I disagree with it because I think it’s too simplistic and enacting it would be dev time better spent elsewhere. Sounds like your main issue is you want the technology of cosmogenesis with the aggression of nemesis, in which case you can get that by playing a genocidal empire and picking cosmo. Trying to fit all crisis events and systems in one will likely make a mess.

I’d argue that this basically already happened in miniature already. Galactic nemesis is, IMO, poorly done. It tried to be too many things at once and tonally is a mess. There’s no sensible link between menace points and the unlocks you get from them (how does genociding lots result in the technology for mineral corvettes or star killers?), whereas advanced logic and the means to get them completely fit the cosmogenesis path. Also aesthetically nemesis is trying to be both an ork Waaagh! where swarms of low-tech scrap ships are thrown at enemies and incorporate eldritch hypertech evocative of intellects vast, cool, and unsympathetic.

If the devs tried to combine the two I feel we’d have even more of a thematic mess where the flaws of nemesis undermine the polish and coherency of cosmogenesis. If anything I feel we should have the opposite to all-in-one. Instead nemesis should be broken into two different crises, one thematically appropriate for an empire that Waaagh!s with scrap ships and one that focuses on eldritch hyper tech. But I wouldn’t say that this should be any sort of priority, since there are better things the devs could work on.
Not the "aggression" of Nemesis, just the existential threat the rest of the galaxy treats you as. I might have mentioned it in the original post, but I'm basically after stuff that allows me to more accurately roleplay the Reapers from Mass Effect. Also, if you just play as a genocidal empire and pick Cosmo, that won't have the same effect as picking Galactic Nemesis because unless they've recently changed it on PC (consoles have just gotten Galactic Paragons), no matter how powerful *and* aggressive/violent you are, empires will actually *STOP* declaring war on you because they know they'll lose. I have never once been declared a Galactic Crisis even hundreds of years past the End Game, but playing as a Galactic Nemesis makes it so that once you reach the final tier, for the rest of the game all empires are in open war against you until you are fully destroyed.

In the current system, this is kind of exploitable because there're no actual buffs or bonuses needed from the final Menace Tier, so you can hold off on the final research project that causes everyone to declare war on you until you've built up your power to satisfactory levels. I will say that I'm also not a fan of the "blip the universe out of existence with the press of a button" mechanic, but that's just me.

I've suggested it before (maybe not in this thread), that I'd love a Machine-based Crisis path that results in you building a Megastructure supercomputer that allows you to become a Singularity, and the each tier reduces Empire Sprawl by a total percentage, and the final tier eliminating it completely, allowing you to abuse your techs and traditions to your (my) hearts desire, and instead of just getting a victory screen, you still get to go around and destroy everyone normally if you want. Maybe as an extra caveat, when that Megastructure is completed, it presents the small threat that if the galaxy is able to destroy it in an attack, your entire empire is destroyed. Gone, boom, in an instant. I'll let you guess which 3rd game's final battle I've got in my head.

Also, just to be clear, when I suggested a "general" Crisis system that allows you to choose your path and perks, what I was suggesting was for the game to not choose your empire's "theme" for you and have you decide that yourself, choosing the buffs and perks that suit what you want. For example (we'd need more Aetherophasic Engine equivalents for this), if you picked Nemesis, you know you'd end up on the entire galaxy's bad side, but that doesn't have to mean you're - as you described - orks that throw thousands of cheap corvettes at their enemies. To use the Reapers from Mass Effect as the obvious example, they were largely indifferent to the morality, politics, societies and technologies of organic civilizations. All they cared about (as far as you could tell from the first two games) was increasing their own strength. It was the acquisition of strength for it's own sake.

To me, Cosmo has a similar problem you've described for GN, the only distinction is that it "makes sense" in-universe. My empire doesn't want to enter another universe and reshape reality from scratch Thanos-style, just like how in GN my empire doesn't have any interest in becoming Shroud Gods, which is why I never finish the Engine's last stage. Cosmo's "theme" is consistent with itself, which is a bonus over GN, but it still doesn't present the player with many roleplaying options. Even if I do what I do with GN and stop just before the end, it still would be kind of breaking the purpose of the perk.

I'm wondering if to try and solve your problem with GN and my problem with Cosmo it might be a good idea to change the Crisis Perks from turning your empire into another of a specific theme and "character", and instead take it back to when it was called Become The Crisis, but bake it into something similar to the Civic system, to use Determined Exterminator as an example. Your civics (or maybe ethics?) would decide what "Crisis-type" you are (again, we'd need more events for this to actually work since we only have two right now) and the Become The Crisis Perk would enable you to actually pursue your empire's "dark side" as it were, since it could actually be you want to play as the good guy for once and it'd be really annoying if you were somehow locked in at the game start, barring the obvious civics. After you take the BTC perk, you'd then start unlocking player-chosen bonuses with the available choices being based on your "Crisis-Type". If you're a Determined Exterminator or Fanatical Purifier with a hatred of organics (or aliens in general), you might not care so much about strength and superiority, just about eliminating potential threats, which would be similar to GN and would have thinks like the Menacing ships. And the reason I threw FP in there was because I'm not sure a FP would be patient enough to wait for advanced technologies as opposed to eliminating their enemies as soon as possible. Not sure what we'd have for Driven Assimilator, but if you avoided those civics and I just had a normal Machine Empire with no explicit motivation other than to simply take strength and add it to myself, the choices could be a mix of highly advanced technologies mixed with combat proficiency and expertise (like the FE Battleships/Titans and the 40% ship damage). To make this work, we would also need to do something with the AI's capability of declaring you a Crisis, assuming that hasn't already been done in between console's current build and PC's
 
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I find the war aspect of the game woefully under-developed, its arguably less advance than old games like Victoria 1 or HOI2. And yes, this is 'war game' just as much as any other aspect/feature of the game.

Combat is basically - my fleet/ground troops power number is bigger than yours so I win (in the majority of cases). This is waayyyy too simplistic.

Im not saying this game has to be dedicated war game level complexity here but cmon, drag it into the 21st centrury a bit eh?

Some proposed ideas to improve the game:

-For gods sake fix doomstacking. Its cheap, lazy and annoying. Older Paradox games didnt do this. I have no idea why it has become a thing again. Or if you do feel the need to do this, there should be very heavy penalties for doing so.

-Some basic doctrinal/tech pathways - fleeting in being, carrier focus, battleship focus, gunship focus, raiding doctrine, fortress doctrine. Make these playstyle choices mean something. If your strategy is to raid planets & steal stockpiles & cripple economy - make it a viable option. You should be able to bring an enemy to heel without necessarily just smashing their fleets/occupying their planets.

-More variety/definition in ship classes. Dont have to go nuts here - dedicated escort/light/fleet carriers would do. Perhaps a flagship as well. Distinct fighters & bombers would be cool as well. Make carrier builds mean something.

-More clarity on weapon components. I know what the words 'shield penetration' means but the game is not clear on what benefits this brings. What is the optimal loadout for a ship? Do I want a equal split damage & penetration or is one attribute generally better? I dont know.

-Ground combat could use some expansion/improvement. Dedicated infantry & Armour units - that have distinct roles (ala HOI2 & onwards). I like the existing sci-fi tropes in the game - clones, gene warriors, xenomorphs, slaves etc but units that actually feel like they have a distinct role/purpose would be nice. Ground combat just feels like tedious busy-work at the moment. For simplicity, make gene warriors/clones as residence level species or above.

-Get rid of dimensional fleets. Gods they are annoying. And can be way overpowered. A million fleet power fleet in a single fleet? WTF?

As for resolution:
-Better clarity on peace deals- - particularly for other wars. I find the layout/peace notifications hard to decipher.

-More diplomatic options - including pre-war threats. eg: 'give me X system or I declare war'.

-Sort out declaring rivals. In my experience, you are declared a rival for no reason whatsoever, which often arbitrarily tanks existing diplomatic improvement efforts. Or AI players declare everyone a rival then do nothing about it, and just sit there staring at each other. It gets boring real quick.
 
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As many others have said, the biggest improvement would be diversity around political actions, both lifting of many of the restrictions for political actions during a war, and greater diversity of political war-goals. I have a few thoughts, which I'll try to categorise.

Politics of War
At the moment, war is very restrictive. When the victim of multiple foreign aggressors in sequence, a faction is hard-locked out of a lot of political actions in a way that doesn't really make sense, either from a gameplay or realism perspective. This can cause a faction with many ready and willing allies to be prevented from forming alliances, taking vassals, etc, even when those potential allies would want a war against the aggressors.

In the real world, major powers are quite capable of engaging in a minor war-front on one side of the world, whilst building diplomatic pacts on the other-side. Diplomacy is often critical, in fact, to the outcome of a war.

An example of this is in a losing war when a peaceful, friendly, empire, on the verge of joining a federation. In reality, the onset of a war can galvanize alliances and cause loose political alliances to become open military support. Similarly, a faction that is the victim of a war is likely to be more proactive about seeking military alliances, albeit other factions will potentially have some reticence.

I would generally support all political actions being possible during a war, in addition to which, I think we need more ways to enter a war after it has begun, either joining by invite or request, offering fleets to other factions,

War and Peace
The way war goals and peacetimes interactions between opposing factions work could also do with some tweaking.

The claim system at the moment is great and gives a controlled, restrained, way of gradually gaining territory. However, with the current war-exhaustion balance and mechanics, to claim a few systems generally requires conquering the majority of the opponent's space. Because, with the restriction on diplomatic actions in war-time, the attacker is strongly incentivised to finish the war quickly, we get a sledgehammer to crack a nut style of waging war, where the attacker uses overwhelming force to capture a few systems that they could have held with a fraction of their fleet. A few changes here would work wonders, namely, more war exhaustion inflicted for holding claimed territories over time, and introducing the ability to build star-bases on temporary territories, allowing invaders to fortify to help them hold position, without having to send a doom-stack to chase down the enemy fleets.

Moving on to peacetime, truces currently forcibly allow factions to trespass on each others' territory. This is open to abuse by both players and AI and currently prevents meaningful prevention of access, as a quick, low threat, war can be declared to force a 10 year removal of territorial rights. It also doesn't really make sense from the point of view of a highly aggressive faction. We've all heard the complaints: why would the fanatic purifiers absolutely dominating a war across large territories suddenly decide to grant a 10 year reprieve, when in real terms their economy has grown and their pops are happy and unified by the murder.

Age of Wonders 4 has done war quite well, with a grievance system. This allows factions to trespass on each other and build border friction, but gives a grievance to the opposing player. When trespassing during peacetime, you are also open to be attacked, albeit this also builds grievances. Declaring war without having more grievances than your opponent imposes hefty penalties on influence (called imperium, in that game) for the duration of the war, and once a war is declared, all prior grievances are cleared. Functionally, this means that territorial disputes are more significant and more likely to cause war, and that short wars are more practical, with repeated wars being possible, but harder to do without building up new grievances. Grievances can also be bought and sold, which allows players to exert some influence over the system.

Mechanics
Fleet cap has done very little to remove the doom stack strategy in Stellaris. In part, this is because ships, rather than fleets, are the fundamental military unit, and there is no reason that any combination of individual ships can't be in the same system simultaneously. This is very important, in fact, to allow players to build fleets that can tackle enormous major threats, such as fallen empires etc. However, for both players and AIs it is currently always strategically beneficial to concentrate all forces and systematically sweep through territories.

I recently played a speed build using the stormchasers origin, which was able to significantly outmaneuver the enemy. This was a good proof of concept that mobility being inversely proportional to fleet size can be an answer to doom-stacks and one solution that would couple well with the fleet cap would be for more fleets moving together to be slower, to simulate logistical complexity of supply chains etc.

Another criticism I see often levelled at Stellaris is late game performance. It appears experientially that a large portion of this is from bloat from larger fleets. Realistically, each planet in the real world would only be generating a few large spacefaring ships each, whereas stellaris fleets are vast, to the point that swarm builds look silly and large capital ships need to clip together in order to fly in formation. Fleets made of smaller but more powerful ships, with more emphasis on upgraded tech, should help a lot with the late-game bloat and would make each ship feel more significant to a conflict.
 
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Another criticism I see often levelled at Stellaris is late game performance. It appears experientially that a large portion of this is from bloat from larger fleets. Realistically, each planet in the real world would only be generating a few large spacefaring ships each, whereas stellaris fleets are vast, to the point that swarm builds look silly and large capital ships need to clip together in order to fly in formation. Fleets made of smaller but more powerful ships, with more emphasis on upgraded tech, should help a lot with the late-game bloat and would make each ship feel more significant to a conflict.
I've heard that a lot of the performance issues comes from the number of pops in the game, which seems like an obvious one to me, but I suppose (especially on PC when you've got larger scale caps) on max settings each AI empire has hundreds of ships it can be around just as much of an issue.

Anyway, from what I can tell you're suggesting that we make ships more commensurately powerful but reduce the amount of ships in a fleet? Part of the reason I enjoy Battleship-spamming so much as a theme is that I enjoy the idea of supremely powerful instruments of destruction that are simultaneously monsters to take down, so I am generally a fan of the idea of having less of them in numbers, but commensurately much higher in individual strength. So instead of having around 24 Battleships and 2 Titans per fleet, I'd have around 5 Battleships and maybe 1 Titan per fleet. Would we be reducing the Titan cap from 20 to 10 or 5 or are we leaving that where it is? And I wonder what we'd do with Naval Cap to accommodate these changes
 
It could be interesting if wars in Stellaris were similar to diplomatic plays in Victoria 3. All empires already calculate how much they are threatened by eachother, so why not start each war as a "play" where one empire demands something of another. The empire being demanded could cave in or escalate by choosing their own demands which would become their winning conditions in the war, and the demanding empire could then add additional demands. At this stage both sides will have a chance to invite allies as minor participants using favors and promises (adding something to the war goal just for a minor participant). If a minor participant accepted to join one side, the other side could promise that minor participant something else in the wargoal for switching sides, and if the war itself ends up swinging in a particular direction some participants may white peace or switch sides.

A whole bunch of minor concessions could be added to wars to make this system more robust, such as lowering naval capacity or starbase capacity, economical concessions (energy and minerals), releasing subjects and even making systems demilitarized.
 
So, I'm a little late to the party as I took a break from playing Stellaris, mainly because of sales on Steam letting me play other games I wanted on the cheap. I didn't see this in time to participate in the survey, but I do want to voice an opinion on one aspect that I don't know if it were covered yet, as the thread is TL;DR for me right now.

I feel like any revamp of war would be incomplete without also revisiting how borders are done.

Case and point: I had a game once where I was at war with someone and was moving a huge fleet into their territory. As this is happening, they get a rebellion. My fleet is now in the rebel star system. Before I'm able to traverse the system, they close their borders. Poof, that huge fleet of mine teleports away and is now unavailable for a significant chunk of time.

Please tell me why my huge empire is supposed to give two rat's farts about the feelings of a one system minor to the point that I say "oh no we're violating your sovereignty, please forgive us despite the fact that we could crush you like the insignificant ants you are." Moreover, I am now blocked from going through that system. Why? Why am I forced to respect their borders? Why should I be forced to care? That's like me telling an approaching tornado "Sorry Mr Tornado, but I've locked my doors and windows, you can't touch my house."

The current system of closed borders is gamey as hell. I understand it was put in to prevent things like a player doomstacking right outside a nation's capital and then declaring war, but if the game could consider just the border intrusion itself to be an act of war, then you can't pull that tactic anyway. In the example I listed above, I would suggest letting me violate the one system minor's borders, and make it so that there are diplomatic repercussions. For example, if some larger power decides to aid the rebellion and threatens me with war if I don't respect their borders, then THAT would be cool gameplay because it MAKES SENSE.
 
I've heard that a lot of the performance issues comes from the number of pops in the game, which seems like an obvious one to me, but I suppose (especially on PC when you've got larger scale caps) on max settings each AI empire has hundreds of ships it can be around just as much of an issue.

Trade actually, is one of the bigger drains in systems also, and removing trade routes increases performance massively. which is odd. There are few mods that remove Trade routes, and make trade be just auto collected. which is a big performance boost. Making pops as of right now a much less of a big issue, at least on my end.


Another performance drain is absurd sized fleets in combat. But, this is more a late game issue. But Fleets and number of ships could well be compressed when it comes to fleets.
 
Trade actually, is one of the bigger drains in systems also, and removing trade routes increases performance massively. which is odd.
That sounds like something is causing excessively frequent calls to a pathfinder that doesn't have a good heuristic.
 
1) I would love that we wouldn't just stick to 1 meta build of each ship and technology would matter more (PVE)
2) the ground combat could use mechanics (i mean build armies the same way we build ships maybe? It's A COMBAT)
3) would love more options with war (with trade offer an empire to join war, buy yourself out of a war, different war goals should have more effects on politics (ex. vassalizing war should be forbidden or empire is denounced)
 
Mercenaries are badly designed. Their fleets should not be present on the map while idle (lags and distractions). And there should be accesible interface to hire them and see if they are hired already (maybe a new column in the contacts list).

Their base is ugly :/

And of course fleets in the outliner should be sorted (sortable).
 
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They could limit the number of ships that can pass through a hyperlane at once. The rest have to queue up and wait their turn. This would be upgraded by researching the technology. So instead of 'Fleet Command Limit', your empire has a 'Hyperlane Transport Width'. This solves doomstacking, giving the defender the advantage by parking a larger fleet by the hyperlane exit. But if the aggressor has researched the tech to cram 600 ships through a hyperlane, you'd better move aside.
 
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They could limit the number of ships that can pass through a hyperlane at once. The rest have to queue up and wait their turn. This would be upgraded by researching the technology. So instead of 'Fleet Command Limit', your empire has a 'Hyperlane Transport Width'. This solves doomstacking, giving the defender the advantage by parking a larger fleet by the hyperlane exit. But if the aggressor has researched the tech to cram 600 ships through a hyperlane, you'd better move aside.
I don't hate that in principle, and it makes command limit matter again beyond now-capped admirals...

However, it likely makes attacking a dedicated defender simply impossible. Defenses are far too weak and they need more tiers of starbase, faster platform building, ideally the option to assign admirals to starbases, etc. But this would make defenses virtually always win, which isn't great either.
 
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I don't hate that in principle, and it makes command limit matter again beyond now-capped admirals...

However, it likely makes attacking a dedicated defender simply impossible. Defenses are far too weak and they need more tiers of starbase, faster platform building, ideally the option to assign admirals to starbases, etc. But this would make defenses virtually always win, which isn't great either.
So split your fleet and attack multiple starbases, forcing them to thin their defenses. Most hyperlanes aren't within engagement range of the starbase, so a starbase without a defensive fleet camping the hyperlane would still be overwhelmed by massing fleets within the system, outside of range.

If the defender holds a single, entrenched chokepoint, then no, you aren't going to beat them unless you're a whole lot more advanced. This is the consequence of removing doomstacking as a win-button. It would be an interesting experiment. There may be fleet tactics that would help too, like using high-evasion corvettes as a screen.
 
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