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HoI 4 Dev Diary - Communist China

Hello, and welcome back to another Dev Diary covering China. Today, we are taking a look at Mao Zedong, and the country recently renamed to “Communist China”. As a little treat, we will also show you how crazy you can really get with the new decision system (spoiler alert: pretty crazy).

Given the overall situation in China in 1936, the Communists certainly weren’t anyone’s favourite to win the Civil War. Mao and the Red Army had barely escaped encirclement and destruction in Jiangxi, being forced on the famous Long March that carried them to Shanxi to a new Base Area. There, they tried to recover their strength and prepare for the next showdown with the forces of Chiang Kai-Shek. Japan loomed in the background, and the basic question was simple: Who would strike first?

Capture_intro.JPG


This question formed the core of the strategic deliberations the Party found itself in. If Japan struck first, then an alliance with the Nationalists would be necessary to present a United Front to the enemy. If Japan remained passive, then the efforts should be directed against the Nationalists. And while Mao had emerged as supreme in the internal factional struggles during the Long March, he was far from safe. Others may well try to usurp his position, advocating different paths to achieve true communism.

Capture_zhang_lan.JPG


When war actually came, it came from the Japanese. Mere months earlier, one of Chiang’s top generals had taken matters into his own hand and forced Chiang (more or less at gunpoint) to sign an alliance with the Communists (this Xi’an incident is represented in game as a decision the warlords can take - which we thought worked better from a gameplay perspective than a random event that fired at some point). Finally together in a United Front, both sides lost no time in undermining the spirit of the treaty while staying true to the letter. By 1940, the United Front had become more or less a formality.

Looking at the focus tree, you will note that the Communists share the right hand side of their tree with the Nationalists (modders will be pleased to hear that we now have something called a “shared focus” in script, which does about what you’d think it does). Since the the opening missions to the various countries depend on either having the same ideology or very good relations, the Communists start in a somewhat weaker negotiating position than the Nationalists. But changes in the global situation might give you new opportunities - for example if, say, Japan were to fall to communism…

prc_tree.jpg


On the left side, the tree deals with the various internal factions in the Communist Party, from Mao and his allies to the Soviet-trained and backed faction under Wang Ming to an attempt at less radical “Social Democracy” under Zhang Lan. In the center, you are presented with the mirror of the choice facing the Nationalists - do you focus on the Japanese threat, or do you try to take the fight to the other Chinese factions and try to gain supremacy before Japan comes knocking?

Representing the Chinese Communists contribution to the war presented us with a bit of a problem - they didn’t engage in open warfare for the most part, and our systems are not really made to represent offensive guerilla warfare. We wanted to give the Communists a real shot at winning the Civil War without having to resort to the clumsy and counter-intuitive system used in vanilla, where you boost party popularity in China to flip states to your side.

So a few late-evening “design meetings” (beer may or may not have been involved) later, we came up with the Infiltration/Uprising system, which is a unique mechanic for the Communists. At the most basic level, it was supposed to let you pay infantry equipment to infiltrate a state. By itself, this does very little - but when you trigger the Uprising, the states you have infiltrated will flip to your side. Depending on your approach, this can cripple the other side’s war economy and strand a large part of their army in enemy territory.

infiltration.png

(numbers are not final)

While we did want this to represent the ways the Communists executed their strategy of People’s War, building base areas from which to wage guerilla warfare, we also didn’t want to leave the other side without any way to counter the infiltration. So the infiltrated player can spend resources to try and uncover your infiltration, and, if discovered, to counter it.

We then expanded the system a bit further to make infiltrating a state not just a binary infiltrated/cleared state, but actually allow you to build up a Base Area in several levels. On the most basic level, your soldiers merely sabotage infrastructure and factories when you trigger the uprising. On the higher levels, the state flips to your control and on the highest level even spawns militia units to defend it.

We then adapted this system to also work against the Japanese. Countering infiltration does not remove it instantly, but only reduces the level of infiltration. It is always worthwhile, but it may not be enough.

Note that this system is still in testing and might change before release.

But opposition and warfare is not the only way you can win the Civil War. We really wanted to explore how the Communists could have secured their influence through political means, which brings us to the second unique China mechanic: Political Support.

support.png

(numbers are not final)

When the Communists decide to go down the “Social Democracy” branch of their focus tree, they will eventually form a coalition government with the Nationalists, which will begin a power struggle between the two parties. You can then spend political power over a number of days to build your power base in different states. Each state represents a support value, and securing the support of other warlords adds even more support. Once you have more support than the Nationalists, you can make a push for taking over the entire country, eventually annexing all of China after Chiang Kai-Shek suffers an...accident.

The Nationalist player, of course, has ways to counter this, but with political power scarce, eventually something will have to give. Note that you can pursue both approaches at the same time to keep the Nationalists guessing.

More details on how we did this will have to wait until a future diary, in which we talk more about the scripting behind the new features.

That’s all for this week. Next week we will talk about Generals, and why we have been looking at their family tree. For now, have a look at the awesome hats the Heroes of the Revolution wear into battle:

PRC_cavalry_infantry_02.jpg


Edit: We forgot to showcase some of the other new portaits for PRC, here ya go:
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At 16:00 today, @Da9L and @podcat will show off the reworked German focus tree, attempt to kill Hitler and bring back the Kaiser! So check out the Paradox twitch today at 16:00 CET: https://go.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive
 
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Though I prefer to wait until the warlord trees are released and not make any assumptions, perhaps they will have something that establishes them as the true government of China so they get China proper as cores.

Mengkukuo and Yuan CHina are coming :eek:

Joke aside, I wonder if Mengkukuo will get something
 
So a few late-evening “design meetings” (beer may or may not have been involved) later, we came up with the Infiltration/Uprising system, which is a unique mechanic for the Communists. At the most basic level, it was supposed to let you pay infantry equipment to infiltrate a state. By itself, this does very little - but when you trigger the Uprising, the states you have infiltrated will flip to your side. Depending on your approach, this can cripple the other side’s war economy and strand a large part of their army in enemy territory.

Will other communist countries have this capability? (E.g. Soviet Union) It similar in principal to the Great Patriotic War. In fact, it seems representative of most countries whose Homeland was invaded. Have you considered it for those that have core provinces/states occupied by an invader?
 
It's worth keeping in mind that HoI4's naval system does introduce a bunch of new things that improve it over past HoI's in many areas, and that other Paradox games aren't particularly strong navally as well (the numbers of ships sunk in fleet actions in EU4 would have Nelson rolling in his grave, and the Vickys play rough-and-loose with the most vibrant time in naval technology in any of the periods of history covered by Paradox games). At the end of the day, the devs can only work on so much at once. While I think (almost) every expansion should be a naval expansion (tanks should still be in the game, but only to give LSTs something to carry :D), the devs have to prioritise what they do, and I can understand things like CoC and China getting bumped ahead of naval (areas of the game that have also drawn plenty of comment on the forums as well).

I agree the the HOI4 naval system did some things that were different than HOI3, some good and some horrible such as the use of generic convoys to transport units. And I understand that fixing the naval system will require a lot of effort given it's current shape. I was holding out hope that since the air system was looked at in 1.4 the naval system would be looked at in 1.5. After all, both the Med and Pacific theaters revolve around naval combat. Right now the naval system is pretty much ai suicide in SP and see who has the biggest, um, stack in MP.

As you note, the devs can only work on so much. But we have been told focus trees are handled by different people than those who do the coding and such. So since naval combat isn't receiving a lot of attention we can only hope the ai fixing and balancing has been devoted to improving the ai front priorities and shuffling (which is still bad), the ai production priorities and system, and getting to ai to actually deal with resistance in a competent manner. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the things revealed so far, but most are stuff around the edges, focus trees (hopefully this means the German tree won't be causing stupid war declarations now), or eye candy that doesn't actually address playability or ai competency. Completely revising the general stat system might be good, but it wasn't a need, it was a want. Getting the ai to play better is a NEED, at least for those who like to play SP.

Since it now appears Waking the Tiger is a post Christmas release it will probably be some time before we know what has been done to improve actual ai play. Until then all we can do is tune in every Wednesday and see what tidbits PDS tosses out to us. Time to get back to cooking the bird and watching football (not futbol).

Y'all have a Happy Thanksgiving and Roll Tide!
 
Any chance for a way for China to get someone like Peng Shuzhi or Wang Fanxi in charge to hang out with Trotsky if he becomes leader of the USSR and the Orthodox Marxism tree is taken?
 
I was holding out hope that since the air system was looked at in 1.4 the naval system would be looked at in 1.5. After all, both the Med and Pacific theaters revolve around naval combat. Right now the naval system is pretty much ai suicide in SP and see who has the biggest, um, stack in MP.

I had similar hopes early on, but once Chain of Command had been announced I adjusted them because I didn't think it was feasible we'd get that level of change in land mechanics (particularly with other things like air supply and division name lists also being non-naval in nature) as well as a significant change to naval mechanics. That doesn't mean we won't necessarily see some small improvements though, just a case of waiting and seeing.

Y'all have a Happy Thanksgiving and Roll Tide!

Right back at you and to everyone else :).
 
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Or to Xibei San Ma. Xibei San Ma basically means Ma family and they had a lot of generals.

I like to call them, "One Big Scary Family", seeing how they were some of the fiercest warlords in China and drove the Japanese out of Qinghai.
 
Happy thanksgiving y'all. Best on this holiday and whatever holiday you give thanks for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Go War Eagles!!! Go Tigers, Go Cardinals.
 
It's no quite true what you write. The Communist weren't forced on a long march and weren't nearly annihilated by anyone but Mao himself. Chiang repeeadly opened up corridors for he reds to leave battles and areas. The only fighting took place on orders of Mao. The long march is just propaganda, Mao wanted to be closer to Russia and thus they started Walking.
Edgar Snow got Everything wrong, but he was Close to Roosevelt whom didn't much trust his own foregin affairs office but instead lisened to special friends. Both Roosvelt and Stalin continually threatened Chiang if he dared to touch the reds and Mao. Even Churchill threatened Chiang.
The unified front for mao was just a way to lay claim to land behind the japanese lines, and the japanese complied even. Seeing how Nat china was the main threat.

(My keyboard sucks :( )
 
I like to call them, "One Big Scary Family", seeing how they were some of the fiercest warlords in China and drove the Japanese out of Qinghai.
Or to Xibei San Ma. Xibei San Ma basically means Ma family and they had a lot of generals.
In fact, they were not of the same family, most of their ancestors just adopted their Ma family name from "Mahmud", which is equivalent to Mohammed in Turk languages. Some Ma cliques were basically rivals.
But did the Japanese invade Qinghai? I only knew the Ma cliques killed some communist sympathizers cruelly though.
 
In fact, they were not of the same family, most of their ancestors just adopted their Ma family name from "Mahmud", which is equivalent to Mohammed in Turk languages. Some Ma cliques were basically rivals.
But did the Japanese invade Qinghai? I only knew the Ma cliques killed some communist sympathizers cruelly though.

It seems that they tried, but the Ma army was fanatical and ruthless enough to stop them before the Japanese even got to Qinghai's border. The cavalrymen under General Ma Biao, who held a violent hatred of all Japanese, were so fearsome that the Japanese couldn't even collect their dead for cremation, as the cavalrymen would immediately open fire or start charging. Instead, the Japanese stuck to quickly chopping arms off bodies and making a run for it. Anyway, Ningxia and Qinghai were never conquered.

Yeah, the Ma clique really hated the communists.
 
@Archangel85 Since we're putting slightly less likely options on the table: How about a Trotskyist path for Communist China under Chen Duxiu as well? Just a suggestion, but Trotskyists were fairly active in the urban areas of China during the Civil War, so it's not implausible :)
 
This is a really cool mechanic but I wonder if it will all backfire. I mean this means demands for political power will be higher than ever and I fear China will be even more likely to fold like a napkin when the Japanese invade. Especially if the AI cannot habdle the new mechanic.

Still, it is nice to see the Paradox team is thinking outside the box and that they are still adding new features to the game. Next expansion can you guys fix the naval ai?
 
I like to call them, "One Big Scary Family", seeing how they were some of the fiercest warlords in China and drove the Japanese out of Qinghai.

When did the Japanese get anywhere near qinghai
It seems that they tried, but the Ma army was fanatical and ruthless enough to stop them before the Japanese even got to Qinghai's border. The cavalrymen under General Ma Biao, who held a violent hatred of all Japanese, were so fearsome that the Japanese couldn't even collect their dead for cremation, as the cavalrymen would immediately open fire or start charging. Instead, the Japanese stuck to quickly chopping arms off bodies and making a run for it. Anyway, Ningxia and Qinghai were never conquered.

Yeah, the Ma clique really hated the communists.

When did the Japanese get anywhere anywhere near Qinghai?