HOI4 Dev Diary - A New Germany

[ltccone]

Yeah, that is pretty much spot on. Funnily enough, in German, the word 'empire' developed it's own life, just as 'Reich' did in English, and is heavily associated with the British empire. In fact, the British empire is most commonly called "Britisches Empire" in German, and not, as one might assume, "Britisches Imperium". It's pretty much the same as "German Reich" in reverse.

And both Kaiser and Czar derive from the word 'Caesar.'

 

[Shatterfury]

Germany was HRE successor,but so was Austrian Empire and Sudes was still their region, it was never German. We wll never know what could have happened if Kaiser would still rule after WW1 or if Versailes treaty would never happened.

It doesn't matter how many Germans lived in Sudetenland it was not the territory that Empire had. You can make Qingdao as your colony again, how many Germans do you think lived there or in their Africa colonies...I'm talking purely on what the focus tree is and it shows that it's clearly meant to to restore old German Empire territories on Kaiser path. You want Sudetenland and Austria? You have Hitler's path and yes Pozen should be a region that Empire should have a core or claim on, since it was once part of their Empire, sames goes for west and east Africa + New Guinea.

If the Austrian Empire was the successor of the HRE it would be named the German Empire, since it was not, it isn`t the successor of the HRE, or shall I say the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation, to be more precise.
I don`t care about some far flung places that the Reich used to have in the 19th century, I care about the realities of the 20th century.
The century that forged countries based on the principle of self determination and like it or not the Republic of German Austria, who also included Sudetenlands, voted to unite with with Germany. Based on the will of the people there I say Germany, regardless of it`s government, had far bette claims on those lands, better than on Qingdao or any other colony Germany used to have.
But if you want to restore the old colonial holdings, be my guest, the focuses are there.

I`m not saying that focuses have to be removed, no, just that in addition to what you say, recreating the old colonial empire Germany used to have, we could have an alternative of allowing Austria and Sudetenlands to be united with an imperial or democratic Germany.

I`m merely advocating for alternate paths rather than removal.

 

[ltccone]

If the Austrian Empire was the successor of the HRE it would be named the German Empire, since it was not, it isn`t the successor of the HRE, or shall I say the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation, to be more precise.
I don`t care about some far flung places that the Reich used to have in the 19th century, I care about the realities of the 20th century.
The century that forged countries based on the principle of self determination and like it or not the Republic of German Austria, who also included Sudetenlands, voted to unite with with Germany. Based on the will of the people there I say Germany, regardless of it`s government, had far bette claims on those lands, better than on Qingdao or any other colony Germany used to have.
But if you want to restore the old colonial holdings, be my guest, the focuses are there.

I`m not saying that focuses have to be removed, no, just that in addition to what you say, recreating the old colonial empire Germany used to have, we could have an alternative of allowing Austria and Sudetenlands to be united with an imperial or democratic Germany.

I`m merely advocating for alternate paths rather than removal.

Austria was very much the successor of the HRE. Francis II was the last Holy Roman Emperor. Napoleon's victories at Ulm and Austerlitz effectively destroyed the HRE when the Prince Elector of Bavaria ditched the HRE and declared himself king. Other German members of the HRE followed and became French allies.

 

[RurikHasSexWithMen]

This looks absolutely great, is it possible in the future you can re-do the USSR focus tree? Allowing for more option for Trotskyite Communism, perhaps adding new Ideology paths, Infastructure plans, and maybe even the Romanov restoration perhaps? ( and a Portrait for Kerensky would be nice as well )

 

[Shatterfury]

Austria was very much the successor of the HRE. Francis II was the last Holy Roman Emperor. Napoleon's victories at Ulm and Austerlitz effectively destroyed the HRE when the Prince Elector of Bavaria ditched the HRE and declared himself king. Other German members of the HRE followed and became French allies.

There was only one successor and that was the German Empire.
Francis II lost the title of Holy Roman Emperor and King in Germany when the HRE was dissolved in 1806.
The German Empire, formed in 1871, is the legitimate successor of the HRE.

 

[Lumpy]

There was only one successor and that was the German Empire.
Francis II lost the title of Holy Roman Emperor and King in Germany when the HRE was dissolved in 1806.
The German Empire, formed in 1871, is the legitimate successor of the HRE.

I am afraid there is no evidence to back this claim up. The Holy Roman Empire wasn't a modern state in the first place. Hence, there can be no successor state in this particular sense. Even the contemporary Germans in the 1870s didn't perceive the newly formed German Empire as a successor to the Holy Roman Empire, which was a loose supranational construct.

 

[Alliegorical]

And both Kaiser and Czar derive from the word 'Caesar.'

"Kaiser" is even almost exactly how the Romans themselves pronounced Caesar.

I am afraid there is no evidence to back this claim up. The Holy Roman Empire wasn't a modern state in the first place. Hence, there can be no successor state in this particular sense. Even the contemporary Germans in the 1870s didn't perceive the newly formed German Empire as a successor to the Holy Roman Empire, which was a loose supranational construct.

While all very true, I was fascinated to learn from Church of Spies by Mark Riebling that Claus von Stauffenberg (the leader of the July 20 plot) did in fact see Germany this way, or at least aspired for Germany to see itself as the next HRE. But as a Catholic, his feelings were probably not shared by many other Germans of his time.

 

[Lumpy]

"Kaiser" is even almost exactly how the Romans themselves pronounced Caesar.

Yep, the Romans very likely pronounced the C letter as a /k/ sound, rather than as a /s/ sound. So in Latin, it would have been "Kaesar", which is almost identical to the German word "Kaiser" phonetically.

While all very true, I was fascinated to learn from Church of Spies by Mark Riebling that Claus von Stauffenberg (the leader of the July 20 plot) did in fact see Germany this way, or at least aspired for Germany to see itself as the next HRE. But as a Catholic, his feelings were probably not shared by many other Germans of his time.

That's the point, the German Empire was defined very much by Prussian Protestantism, hence Bismarck's "Kulturkampf" ("culture struggle") against the Catholic church. The HRE legitimized itself by a large extend through the first papal coronation in the 10th century, hence the "Holy" in the title. Von Stauffenberg was probably quite alone with his views.

 

[Alliegorical]

That's the point, the German Empire was defined very much by Prussian Protestantism, hence Bismarck's "Kulturkampf" against the Catholic church. The HRE legitimized itself by a large extend through the first papal coronation in the 10th century, hence the "Holy" in the title. Von Stauffenberg was probably quite alone with his views.

Oh yeah I know. Wasn't disagreeing, I just wanted to share something interesting I'd learned.

 

[ltccone]

There was only one successor and that was the German Empire.
Francis II lost the title of Holy Roman Emperor and King in Germany when the HRE was dissolved in 1806.
The German Empire, formed in 1871, is the legitimate successor of the HRE.

Before Francis II 'lost' the title of HRE because of Napoleon, he WAS the Holy Roman Emperor. The Habsburg Austrians were elected Holy Roman Emperor continuously from 1415 until it was desolved, except for one three year period when Charles VII was elected.

 

[Lumpy]

Oh yeah I know. Wasn't disagreeing, I just wanted to share something interesting I'd learned.

No worries, I got you, just wanted to throw in some background to emphasize your point.

 

[Shatterfury]

I am afraid there is no evidence to back this claim up. The Holy Roman Empire wasn't a modern state in the first place. Hence, there can be no successor state in this particular sense. Even the contemporary Germans in the 1870s didn't perceive the newly formed German Empire as a successor to the Holy Roman Empire, which was a loose supranational construct.

Of course it wasn`t a modern state, the HRE was but a confederation of sorts but the HRE Emperor also was the King of Germany.
Given the name that was chosen it builds on the legacy of the HRE, with some exceptions the German Empire had almost all the lands of the Kingdom of Germany.

If you are looking for a stable state to find, you will find none.
On the other hand as a heraldic title the Kingdom of Germany dates from the 9th century of so, it`s the bedrock of the HRE, the German Kaiser rested his legitimacy on that, unlike the Austrian Emperors.

Before Francis II 'lost' the title of HRE because of Napoleon, he WAS the Holy Roman Emperor. The Habsburg Austrians were elected Holy Roman Emperor continuously from 1415 until it was desolved, except for one three year period when Charles VII was elected.

They were...until they relinquished both titles of Holy Roman Emperor and Kings of Germany for that of Emperor of Austria.

Good thing the Hohenzollerns lifted Germany to the rank of an Empire.


Whatever, this silly debate about heraldry has no bearing on the 20th century.
After WW1 German Austria, who included Sudetenlands, voted to unite with Germany.

 

[TheDungen]

There was only one successor and that was the German Empire.
Francis II lost the title of Holy Roman Emperor and King in Germany when the HRE was dissolved in 1806.
The German Empire, formed in 1871, is the legitimate successor of the HRE.

The claim is that the last holy roman emperor while having the right to abdicate the imperial throne had no right to dissolve the empire. The German empire sees itself as the spiritual successor of the holy roman empire but it should be noted that the Austrian emperor also keep calling himself kaiser. Meanwhile the Austrians believe that they merely ended their formal overlordship of the imperial princes and remained emperors in their own land because their own lands were the real holy roman empire and the imperial princes had not been defacto part of the empire for more than two centuries at that point.

There can be no doubt that the influence is there in the formation of Germany otherwise he would have become king of Germany, not Kaiser, but it was never formalized, and subsequently there are two empires who found themselves allies (and thus never "settled the matter") who views themselves as the real successors of the holy roman empire.

 

[Shatterfury]

The claim is that the last holy roman emperor while having the right to abdicate the imperial throne had no right to dissolve the empire. The German empire sees itself as the spiritual successor of the holy roman empire but it should be noted that the Austrian emperor also keep calling himself kaiser. Meanwhile the Austrians believe that they merely ended their formal overlordship of the imperial princes and remained emperors in their own land because their own lands were the real holy roman empire and the imperial princes had not been defacto part of the empire for more than two centuries at that point.

That reminds me of the whole debate of naming, German Kaiser or Kaiser of Germany.
The first option was chosen because the Austrians were Germans and outside the German Empire.

This whole debate started over the fact if imperial or democratic Germany should have any cores on Austria and Sudetenlands, let`s get back on track.
Heraldry was out of fashion by that time.

 

[TheDungen]

That reminds me of the whole debate of naming, German Kaiser or Kaiser of Germany.
The first option was chosen because the Austrians were Germans and outside the German Empire.

This whole debate started over the fact if imperial or democratic Germany should have any cores on Austria and Sudetenlands, let`s get back on track.
Heraldry was out of fashion by that time.

No they shouldn't because that focus tree is all about restoring things to the the pre ww1 status quo. Which means the alliance of two kaisers (used to be the alliance of three emperors until Russia backed out).

 

[SoulStriker 13]

@podcat Hi, so I'm rather curious, will if one brings back the kaiserriech, do they get cores on all of the lost lands in mainland Europe?

 

[Shatterfury]

No they shouldn't because that focus tree is all about restoring things to the the pre ww1 status quo.

You can bend the knee and accept UK naval supremacy, there is room for a lot of things in that tree.
Letting imperial or democratic Germany get those two isn`t anything game breaking.

 

[Lumpy]

Of course it wasn`t a modern state, the HRE was but a confederation of sorts but the HRE Emperor also was the King of Germany.
Given the name that was chosen it builds on the legacy of the HRE, with some exceptions the German Empire had almost all the lands of the Kingdom of Germany.

If you are looking for a stable state to find, you will find none.
On the other hand as a heraldic title the Kingdom of Germany dates from the 9th century of so, it`s the bedrock of the HRE, the German Kaiser rested his legitimacy on that, unlike the Austrian Emperors.


They were...until they relinquished both titles of Holy Roman Emperor and Kings of Germany for that of Emperor of Austria.

Good thing the Hohenzollerns lifted Germany to the rank of an Empire.

The "Kingdom of Germany" is by no means synonymous with the "Holy Roman Empire", though. If anything, it is even more archaic than the HRE, and the term itself phased out of being used at all past the 12th century.

The reason for the German Empire being called an "empire" ("Reich") was not to establish a continuity to the old Holy Roman Empire, but to imply a rulership over a culturally coherent German domain. So in a sense, it does the exact opposite of implying a claim to non-German lands. Bismarck's remark about the German Empire being "saturated" after the acquisition of Alsace-Lorraine further reinforces this notion.

Aside from all that, there is still no way to plausibly claim that the German Empire was the successor of the HRE. As others pointed out, the last HRE emperor was an Austrian Habsburg archduke, and the von Habsburgs had been emperors ever since the 15th century. The Hohenzollerns had not even a slight claim or even connection to this title.

 

[Shatterfury]

The "Kingdom of Germany" is by no means synonymous with the "Holy Roman Empire", though. If anything, it is even more archaic than the HRE, and the term itself phased out of being used at all past the 12th century.

The reason for the German Empire being called an "empire" ("Reich") was not to establish a continuity to the old Holy Roman Empire, but to imply a rulership over a culturally coherent German domain. So in a sense, it does the exact opposite of implying a claim to non-German lands. Bismarck's remark about the German Empire being "saturated" after the acquisition of Alsace-Lorraine further reinforces this notion.

Aside from all that, there is still no way to plausibly claim that the German Empire was the successor of the HRE. As others pointed out, the last HRE emperor was an Austrian Habsburg archduke, and the von Habsburgs had been emperors ever since the 15th century. The Hohenzollerns had not even a slight claim or even connection to this title.

Of course those two titles aren`t interchangeable, one is a kingdom, the other an empire title.

Bismarck wanted, and achieved, a Protestant Prussian Reich in all but name but that is besides the point and could make for a nice debate about Kleindeutschland vs Grossdeutschland.

The Hohenzollerns got the majority of the land that used to be in both the kingdom of Germany and HRE under their heel and named themselves German Kaisers, unlike the Austrians.
The Hohenzollerns didn`t claim the title of Holy Roman Emperor, they were already kings of Prussia, thus they just upped the German Kingdom to the rank of an Empire.....and since the Habsburgs ceased to be Kings of Germany and Holy Roman Emperors in 1806...there you go.

I know what you are trying to say through heraldic continuity but the reality on the ground was that Prussia had the vast majority of that land under it`s heel, the facto translated into de jure pretty fast.

 

[Lumpy]

Of course those two titles aren`t interchangeable, one is a kingdom, the other an empire title.

Bismarck wanted, and achieved, a Protestant Prussian Reich in all but name but that is besides the point and could make for a nice debate about Kleindeutschland vs Grossdeutschland.

The Hohenzollerns got the majority of the land that used to be in both the kingdom of Germany and HRE under their heel and named themselves German Kaisers, unlike the Austrians.
The Hohenzollerns didn`t claim the title of Holy Roman Emperor, they were already kings of Prussia, thus they just upped the German Kingdom to the rank of an Empire.....and since the Habsburgs ceased to be Kings of Germany and Holy Roman Emperors in 1806...there you go.

I know what you are trying to say through heraldic continuity but the reality on the ground was that Prussia had the vast majority of that land under it`s heel, the facto translated into de jure pretty fast.

But if you are claiming that the German Empire was a de facto successor to the HRE, with claim to former HRE lands, you can't get past heraldic continuity, because the HRE was by very definition a heraldic rather than a cultural entity. That is the reason why they never went out and put claim on all prior HRE lands. A "Großdeutsche Lösung" under Prussian leadership would likely have led to a German Empire which would have included the German speaking lands of Austria proper, but not The Kingdoms of Bohemia, Croatia, Hungary, and so on.

I do agree that a incorporation of Austria into a monarchist German Empire after World War I would make some sense and is somewhat plausible given the right circumstances, would I hardly believe a monarchist Germany would have made a claim on the Sudetenland based on demographics, which was legally part of the old Kingdom of Bohemia.