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HOI4 Dev Diary - Chain of Command

Hi everyone and welcome back to regular dev diaries. This and upcoming diaries will be covering stuff happening in the 1.5 "Cornflakes" update as well as the unannounced expansion that will come out together with it. One of the main focuses of those can be summarized as "making players care more about armies, leaders and troops" (our DLCs tend to have 1-3 main focuses or missions). The first feature that touches on this, and the topic of today's dev diary is adding a military chain of command to the game.

After Hearts of Iron III, where something like organizing the soviet chain of command could take about an hour of the players time we decided that we wanted something that was a lot less effort to work with for HOI4. We basically settled on a flat level with field marshals with no restriction on commanded divisions, and generals with a limit on division count but with a different set of traits. Over time we felt that we lost a bit too much of the WW2 military flavor with this abstraction, so we started thinking about how to do it in a more interesting way.

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What we have done now for 1.5 is that field marshals are now leading an Army Group, which is a certain number of Armies (what we had before) led by Generals. There are then places in theaters as before. Theaters are like before just a geographical organizational tool for the player and don't have a commander or the like to keep them as flexible as possible. This means that we have a Theaters->Army Groups->Armies->Divisions structure now.
While the Generals still come with a soft cap for how many divisions they can efficiently command, the field marshals will now have a number of armies they can efficiently command.

I also want to make sure to point out that this is still very early on in development, so stuff is very likely to change, and some stuff aren't completely working as it should yet. So we are showing you this in progress rather than showing a completely finished feature, and as always any numbers you see are extremely subject to change ;) Also I very sneekily hid the topbar for now ;)
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When it comes to controlling your troops the new system introduces some changes to the battle planner. You can either do a plan for each army in the army group, or have a central plan for the whole Army Group where each army has a part of the frontline assigned as its responsibility. You can also do a mix, in which case an Army will finish its plan and then fall back to executing the Army Group's plan. We are still iteration on this stuff though but I figured you all wanted to know how it would work in practice.

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Something that does not really come across in the images is that we are working on ways to streamline the process for setting up fronts using the new army groups. This should make at least the basic cases feel smooth to set up, even with one more command level and more armies without a ton of extra clicking.

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The sharp eyed reader will also notice that we have removed the skill level for generals. This is now replaced with separate skills of different kinds. Attack, Defense, Planning and Logistics. Attack and Defense do what you expect while Planning improves planning speed and Logistics lowers supply consumption. Field marshal stats apply together with army general stats at a reduced capacity, so you will always want to have a chain of command for best efficiency.

The chain of command feature is going to be part of the free update, although there is some cool DLC features that tie into it we will be revealing in later diaries. Also expect to read more details about the system itself like how things in combat are affected etc.

See you next week when we will be taking a look at national unity...
 
This looks great, but please improve the way fleets are set up. I like to set up 15 dockyards for submarines and destroyers after I have enough to spare, and I leave it on the automatic assign option. I then split up my fleets and put them in all the regions I care about, and I think, "Well, there aren't that many ships right now to defend the big ones, but in a year, it'll be about right." I leave as is without looking at it for about a year, enter another war, and start getting notices about my fleets losing battles. I check them, and there's a fleet with..550 destroyers and subs. All the other fleets have about 10 ships. When it says auto assign, I would think it spreads it out evenly.
 
This looks great, but please improve the way fleets are set up. I like to set up 15 dockyards for submarines and destroyers after I have enough to spare, and I leave it on the automatic assign option. I then split up my fleets and put them in all the regions I care about, and I think, "Well, there aren't that many ships right now to defend the big ones, but in a year, it'll be about right." I leave as is without looking at it for about a year, enter another war, and start getting notices about my fleets losing battles. I check them, and there's a fleet with..550 destroyers and subs. All the other fleets have about 10 ships. When it says auto assign, I would think it spreads it out evenly.
Auto assign all goes to one port, usually your biggest one. All the ships get lumped into one fleet, not even subs are separated out.

Using auto is weak play and can hurt you. It is better to assign the new ships directly to fleets and then occasionally rotate which fleets are getting the reinforcements. One of the reasons auto is bad is it leads to things like Germans subs having to run the gauntlet to get on station. Now that land based planes are so much more deadly it is also bad for you new DDs etc. to have to run through contested areas to reach their area of operations. it is far better to let the production system teleport them to where you want them.

There might be a slight disconnect from reality in that abstraction but there are enough other little things to occupy ones attention without worrying about getting the individual new ships assigned to some useful fleet.
 
It is true that Germany wasn't logistics; they were still heavily dependent on horse-drawn carts and had the expectation of a fast war where they could win before the issue caught up with them. This worked for them in France and Poland, but Rommel had far greater distances to cover.
They were perfectly comfortable with motorized logistics. It simply made more sense to use horse drawn carts and coal fired steam trains to minimize petrol fuel costs in logistics.
 
I don't get why there is so much hype about this DD. I mean chain is a good feature and all, but why are you acting like it is gonna completely change the game? It is still HoI4 with appearing useless fronts and AI that can't invade Brittany.
My point is, don't get your expectations too high to not be disappointed later
 
It is still HoI4 with appearing useless fronts and AI that can't invade Brittany.

I have seen the AI successfully invade UK on several occasions.
One could then on the other hand ask, how the heck did they succeed with that without sinking the Royal Navy first.
 
@podcat - First of all, very excited about the potential for this feature. I know PDS does listen, but I truly hope the biggest cheerleader for this feature was @SteelVolt, as an AI Army without CoC is a blob without direction. I'm hoping to see this feature bring much needed order and control in how troops get assigned by the AI, fighting multiple fronts - CoC is The Chosen One, bringing order and balance to HOI, haha.

Questions/Comments about the feature as described:
  1. Can upgrade/reinforcement priority button be given to FM level, else it's too high, only in theater level
  2. Are the left side FM/General windows moddable? From your example, what if there were 100 divisions of each type, would it autowrap to new line or be unviewable? Thinking of mods with several more unit types than vanilla.
  3. Right side windows - With theater window doubling in size (with at least 1 FM, triple size with 2 FMs, etc), it seems like there should be a button to collapse the new FM rows. Just thinking of countries with several theaters (UK, Commonwealth, USA). Auto-collapse would be perfect but how would that work when moving armies in between theaters? Maybe autoexpand for that theater only when mouse is over that theater window. I know it would often hide your new beautiful feature, but I think it could add too much clutter.
  4. Should Left Side FM window show a list of all unit types just as each general has a list of all types? Else I have to look at all Army windows and count to figure out how many med armor divisions my army group has. Same for theater, how can I see all unit types assigned in a theater?
  5. If I click on a single unit type from the Army/General left side windows (and hold shift to select more), will those units be selected? Or to move divisions from one theater to another I have to create new temp armies, one for each army group, move those armies to a new FM/theater and then merge?
Wishlist for additional CoC abilities:
  1. Strategic Reserves - Having a strategic reserve system would be awesome in this new CoC. Each theater once its front lines are saturated with supply limits create a Reserve Army, located in the closest adjacent supply zone to the front lines. Some theaters with huge fronts like the Eastern Front will require a Reserve Army Group. The size is based on width of the front(s) in that theater and number of divisions on that front. Each country has a Strategic Reserve Army or SRAG, where troops are first deployed and train/exercise if there is spare equipment and no requests from the RAs. Once the RAs are filled from the SRA the SRA is stockpiled. If the front expands slowly (i.e. Not a breakthrough), additional divisions are taken from the RA to cover the front, supply permitting. If supply is not available, front line needs to shift amongst front line A/AGs. Divisions are swapped between front line and RA in cases such that the front line division has fallen below a certain health %, or is queued for a template upgrade which can be a huge hit on health and experience. The battered front line division can re-equip, retrain if possible. If the RA stays full (front line is doing its job), and all other RAs are full and SR is ok in size, a front can be more aggressive, in offense or defensive counter attacks. If a massive breakthrough occurs that needs exploitation/plugging, the entire RA can be sent. If an entire new front occurs, not close nor adjacent to existing fronts, the SRA is sent, leaving the existing fronts alone and unhindered. Humans can select an Army or Army Group to be a RA, one per theater. The SR is its own theater, geolocated near the capital. In essence, this is a supply system for divisions rather than equipment.
  2. Navy/Air CoC, bound with land CoC - Army/Navy/Air coordination. As stated by others I feel naval and airpower desperately needs to be added to CoC. After ~1000 hours of watching AI handoffs games, I don't know if Army AI drives the Navy AI or visa versa. After all, a theater needs more than land power to be successful. HOI3 did this wonderfully including showing needed Intel of enemy forces in your theater, the additional unit types needed by your forces - mechanics the AI directly used, and you could too by enabling auto control for that theater.
  3. CoC Combat Logging - Can combat log be added per FM/ArmyGroup? This will help refine searches and granularity of the data you are looking at. Combat log is great info, but 1 per theater is too much data, more refinement needed, and CoC is the mechanism for this refinement.
  4. Theater Commander - I think going to corps level is too much, especially due to the high number of ahistoric divisions which the human and especially the AI builds. The Army and Army Group hierarchy will help the AI for sure. However, it doesn't feel right with emersion in this first attempt of CoC to not have a theater commander. I know it's another layer, but it can be simply done by assigning a FM in each theater to also be theater commander. One FM in a theater, done automatically - two or more, just click a promote button on that FM. Divisions enjoy 1/4 (or half of the Army Group leader bonus) of the theater commander traits/skills. It also would make the TheaterCommander's Army Group the more powerful of the other army groups, and the AI could always give it the toughest assignments. Again, this is mainly for emersion, not playability.
  5. Geolocation of Theaters - Another carry over from HOI3 missing here is the geographical definition of a theater. Location of the troops assigned in a theater seem to be the current definition of theater location rather than hard defined geolocations. I think this has lead the AI to all sorts of nonsense. While a perfect AI would never need to bind itself to a physical map, a perfect AI doesn't exist, anywhere....well, chess is an example, but that map is child's play compared to the earth. Not understanding what the AI is doing with dynamic theaters, I know it can't be doing it well if not hard coded - and Majors might need different theaters rather than a simple list of theaters. The AI should be discouraged from transferring units in between armies, even more so between army groups and even more so in between theaters. That's why I think the Strategic Reserve concept is so important. But I think AI dynamic theaters are too abstract, meant to work on ANY map, not tailored for this planet's geography - as we've learned from many AI deficiencies. Dynamic Theaters I'm sure works better for sandbox, but is absolutely horrible with historic mode.
In closing, I'm disappointed navy wasn't the topic today, but still glad to see a very useful and needed improvement (especially for the AI, I believe). 4/5 Majors have their WW2 experience severely reduced because of poor Navy AI. You don't understand how frustrated I have been with the dev updates since 1.2, "and now, a new focus tree, portraits, 3D models, most of our manpower effort, for those countries everyone loves to play, Latveria, Lilliput, and Lumpa Land!!". This is a much more sensible feature which will hopefully help the AI more than the players, but either way ALL players will enjoy the improvement from the results.
 
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Nice to see a chain of command being reintroduced, and not being too clunky. I do hope Italy and France get a few more generals so we can flesh out a couple of theaters.
 
OH MY GOD NOOOOO !

Guys Remember HOI3 and how that game blow soo bad !

I know I know you want to do something cool and great I respect that also I can play like this too but many players cannot.

How do I know ?

I have a facebook group which has more than 2k members who all play HOI4 and this game is like their first strategy. I mean you really nailed it guys with this game you turned a CS:GO player to strategy gamer and thats great but DO NOT GO TOO FAR please make it very simple.
 
OH MY GOD NOOOOO !

Guys Remember HOI3 and how that game blow soo bad !

I know I know you want to do something cool and great I respect that also I can play like this too but many players cannot.

How do I know ?

I have a facebook group which has more than 2k members who all play HOI4 and this game is like their first strategy. I mean you really nailed it guys with this game you turned a CS:GO player to strategy gamer and thats great but DO NOT GO TOO FAR please make it very simple.

I don't think you need to worry. The HoI3 chain of command had 5 levels! ( Division, Corps, Army, ArmyGroup, Theatre ), and 4 of them had HQ units you had to keep track of as well.

This is only about adding a second level, and no HQ units revealed so far so it's no where near HoI3. :)
 
Funnily enough, I just realized that China's high command in-game consists of nothing but Field Marshals.

So a suggestion for the new system: First, introduce Chiang Kai-shek as China's main field marshal with high defense and logistics. Second, add a number of KMT generals instead of Generic Asian Man/Admiral Chen Shaokuan in an army uniform. Here's some of my recommendations:
  • Sun Li-jen
  • Chen Cheng
  • He Yingqin
  • Wei Lihuang
  • Ma Hongbin
Also, downgrade Xue Yue, Tai An-lan, Du Yuming and Wang Yaowu to Generals. And when China unites, give China the ability to hire Li Zongren, Bai Chongxi, Ma Bufang, Yan Xishan and Long Yun as generals too.
 
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I don't get why there is so much hype about this DD. I mean chain is a good feature and all, but why are you acting like it is gonna completely change the game? It is still HoI4 with appearing useless fronts and AI that can't invade Brittany.
My point is, don't get your expectations too high to not be disappointed later

There are some of us who do actually enjoy the game, even right now.
 
Really excited about the compromise between the HOI4 simplification and the HOI3 OOB potential nightmare.

With the added set-up time of creating your OOB (even just the 2-level one), could we have a pre-start 'save' for the Ironman games?

Would be nice to be able to have the set up already set that you want (or modify slightly) in case weirdness happens that locks you out of the achievement you're going for or a crushing defeat from missing something.
 
OH MY GOD NOOOOO !

Guys Remember HOI3 and how that game blow soo bad !

I know I know you want to do something cool and great I respect that also I can play like this too but many players cannot.

How do I know ?

I have a facebook group which has more than 2k members who all play HOI4 and this game is like their first strategy. I mean you really nailed it guys with this game you turned a CS:GO player to strategy gamer and thats great but DO NOT GO TOO FAR please make it very simple.

Podcat himself admitted that they swung the pendulum too far. And now they are trying to correct that mistake. Swing it back to dead center atleast. And who knows, if they design this CoC properly and the AI handles it extremely well, it could one day be moddable to increase the levels, which I think would satisfy EVERYONE (would need severe GUI modding though, more levels than they current propose would be god awful ugly IMO). I personally don't want this game to be designed for first time strategy game players.
 
it could one day be moddable to increase the levels, which I think would satisfy EVERYONE (would need severe GUI modding though, more levels than they current propose would be god awful ugly IMO).
I really hope the Devs keep this in mind. I can understand that for some things can get too detailed but many of us seem to want a working CoC a bit more detailed but does not become a pain in the butt.