HOI4 Dev Diary - Formables and Releasables

[--Yigito123--]

And as several posters are trying to explain, we expect management to look at the dev's "pet project" and say "We appreciate your passion, but we're not going to put this into the core game as that's not the direction we're trying to take the product. But it should make for a nice little optional content pack. Almost like a company-sanctioned mod, for the AH crowd. Keep at it."

This feels like the DD where they revealed Confederate States focuses for the US, which elicited similar "WTF is this?!?!" from a large slice of the forum community. If anything that was a more egregious example of alt-history shenanigans as it wasn't an example of developer "free time" endeavors. The devs are gonna dev, but what kind of guidance and direction are they getting from their superiors that's planting the seeds of "HOI4 needs more alt-history stuff" in their heads at all?

So you want people to develop content... and then not add it in? Why would they do that? What would making this an independent free DLC actually accomplish? Especially for this, it is ludicrous to assert that the Al-Andalus formable being removed from the game would have any effect on the average "historical accuracy" striving player. Do you have historical campaigns that frequently (Or ever, in fact) result in Morocco controlling the entirety of Iberia, enough that Morocco declaring itself the Caliphate reborn in those situations would have a concrete effect on your immersion? Do you often play Morocco in a historical framework (Or ever, in fact)? Why campaign to get something removed that requires a game to have already flown off the rails to even be visible if you're even acknowledging that it wouldn't actually improve your experience at all (Since I'm sorry to say that developers are not going to spend their free time doing stuff they don't feel like doing, no matter how much you repress and stonewall them from putting content that doesn't fit the "direction", into the game)

 

[Alfray Stryke]

If a dev used their free time to make a "Weird War 2" content pack, with zombie troops and occult research focuses, would you expect that to be merged into the vanilla game experience?

Note to the devs, if you made a Weird War 2 DLC I would pre-order that instantly without question.

 

[Noble713]

So you want people to develop content... and then not add it in? Why would they do that?

Have you ever worked on a development project using Git for version control? A developer could write code, and submit a pull request for their code to be merged into the "master" branch. It's the project lead's responsibility to evaluate that code and perhaps determine "Hmmmm, no this should be in the the experimental branch".

What would making this an independent free DLC actually accomplish?

It would be treated the same as the Historical German Portraits, Poland: United and Ready, Rocket Launcher Unit Pack, and Anniversary Pack. Paradox has already set a precedent on free content DLCs. Oh, and the most "Most Helpful Review Overall" on the Anniversary Pack? That the content introduced an Ironman achievements-breaking BUG. Exactly the sort of 2nd and 3rd-order problem that another poster expressed upthread, regarding frivolous new code additions. At least with those, you can toggle them off and not even download them if you want.

(Since I'm sorry to say that developers are not going to spend their free time doing stuff they don't feel like doing, no matter how much you repress and stonewall them from putting content that doesn't fit the "direction", into the game)

Like I said, devs can develop whatever they want on their free time. They could make a decision tree that leads to replacing the Wehrmacht uniform equipment with Barney the Purple Dinosaur suits, after spending PP for Hugo Boss to have a bad acid trip. I'm sure SOME demographic of HOI4 players would love that. But I fully expect that management should respond with "Yeah that's not getting merged into the master branch."

 

[TK3600]

We should let Mongolia reform and gain core on all of China Russia basically half the world. Because people would totally completely submit to you as long as you ruled them 1000 years ago.

 

[Whisper9000]

Please let there be options to turn formable nations on or off.

 

[Emperor Vylaki]

Dont forget that a nation live in the soul/heart of is people, as long of a people live this nation will survive and the chance that this nation reborn remains.
Just look out Israël, an old Kingdom directly coming from antiquity that reborn at the end of the game.
So, What's my point?
Moorish comunities still exist during the game timeframe in all Maghreb.
Some of them are well in place like this man

Hédi Lakhoua. He was Grand vizier (prime minister) of Tunisia until 1942. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hédi_Lakhoua
For this people iberia is, without a doubt their core territory (so if you are a maghreb country you have the people for al andalus, but not the land, you just need to grab it and move your Moors and then you have your Al Andalus.).

 

[Feeblezak]

EDIT: If a dev used their free time to make a "Weird War 2" content pack, with zombie troops and occult research focuses, would you expect that to be merged into the vanilla game experience?

Not zombies, but personally would love an occult war content pack. Would be an instant pre-order. Same with fantastical wonder weapons.

I'd make it toggleable on or off like CK2s satan worshipper stuff though.

 

[Alfray Stryke]

Not zombies, but personally would love an occult war content pack. Would be an instant pre-order. Same with fantastical wonder weapons.

I'd make it toggleable on or off like CK2s satan worshipper stuff though.

I've suggested a Wunderwaffe DLC multiple times. Lemme try and build the Amerika bomber. Or have a occult/fantasy research options unlocked via continuous NF, which may or may not work. So you'd have an event that'd silently fire in the background when you begin the research if it works or not (much like the mystic in CKII's immortality event chain being a fraud), so your research into UFOs might fail, but the Soviet's research into lightning weapons succeeds.

 

[Riftwalker]

Please let there be options to turn formable nations on or off.

it's called historical...

but really i've only seen the AI form in non-historical and it's only been the polish lithuanian commonwealth, as poland might annex lithuania if they refuse to join the between the seas faction.

 

[Riftwalker]

I've suggested a Wunderwaffe DLC multiple times. Lemme try and build the Amerika bomber. Or have a occult/fantasy research options unlocked via continuous NF, which may or may not work. So you'd have an event that'd silently fire in the background when you begin the research if it works or not (much like the mystic in CKII's immortality event chain being a fraud), so your research into UFOs might fail, but the Soviet's research into lightning weapons succeeds.

soviets... lightning weapons? next you'll tell me einstein makes a time machine.


rubber boots in motion

 

[CPU Taro]

I'm curious why you would think HoI4 is the correct game framework for the fantastical. Have you looked at the game's description/features on the Paradox site?

from: https://www.paradoxplaza.com/hearts-of-iron-iv/HIHI04GSK-MASTER.html

The wider HoI4 community has obviously evolved from when it was merely a reimagined HoI3. Regardless, I repeat my points: it is no more farcical than Mussolini's desire to resurrect Rome, and it is quite safe for you to ignore if it bothers you.

And as several posters are trying to explain, we expect management to look at the dev's "pet project" and say "We appreciate your passion, but we're not going to put this into the core game as that's not the direction we're trying to take the product. But it should make for a nice little optional content pack. Almost like a company-sanctioned mod, for the AH crowd. Keep at it."

This feels like the DD where they revealed Confederate States focuses for the US, which elicited similar "WTF is this?!?!" from a large slice of the forum community. If anything that was a more egregious example of alt-history shenanigans as it wasn't an example of developer "free time" endeavors. The devs are gonna dev, but what kind of guidance and direction are they getting from their superiors that's planting the seeds of "HOI4 needs more alt-history stuff" in their heads at all?

EDIT: If a dev used their free time to make a "Weird War 2" content pack, with zombie troops and occult research focuses, would you expect that to be merged into the vanilla game experience?

The Muslim heritage of Iberia and it seeing a relatable expression to others already in the game is not comparable to implementing 'zombie troops'; and it is rather insulting to see such expressed.

 

[Axe99]

If you try to satisfy casuals against core players

Except this isn't what is happening. The espionage changes, armoured cars, recon planes - all very core stuff. It's core and "casual" (a ridiculous term for a HoI4 player - probably better defining it as historical vs alt-history players), not or.

It would be treated the same as the Historical German Portraits, Poland: United and Ready, Rocket Launcher Unit Pack, and Anniversary Pack. Paradox has already set a precedent on free content DLCs. Oh, and the most "Most Helpful Review Overall" on the Anniversary Pack? That the content introduced an Ironman achievements-breaking BUG. Exactly the sort of 2nd and 3rd-order problem that another poster expressed upthread, regarding frivolous new code additions. At least with those, you can toggle them off and not even download them if you want.

For something like formable nations, which are almost never created by the AI (and in this particular example, AI FRA would need to release Morocco (which afaik it's not scripted to do), which would then need to go on the wildest of AI rampages to form it), this sounds like UI bloating to me. This is really, really small beer.

Please let there be options to turn formable nations on or off.

See my comment above. In the case of Al-Andalus, the likelihood that the AI would ever form it is ridiculously small. In the case of the Polynesian Federation, same story, and for the Polynesian Federation at game start, that's a game rule, so only happens if a player specifically requests it..

 

[CPU Taro]

Except this isn't what is happening. The espionage changes, armoured cars, recon planes - all very core stuff. It's core and "casual" (a ridiculous term for a HoI4 player - probably better defining it as historical vs alt-history players), nor or.



For something like formable nations, which are almost never created by the AI (and in this particular example, AI FRA would need to release Morocco (which afaik it's not scripted to do), which would then need to go on the wildest of AI rampages to form it), this sounds like UI bloating to me. This is really, really small beer.



See my comment above. In the case of Al-Andalus, the likelihood that the AI would ever form it is ridiculously small. In the case of the Polynesian Federation, same story, and for the Polynesian Federation at game start, that's a game rule, so only happens if a player specifically requests it..

I feel like — barring a viral reddit post or something — if this had entered the game silently, the people whining about it would never have found out about it themselves. Even if we were to come at it from a presupposition of bad faith and racism, I don't understand how they've nothing better to do.

 

[Noble713]

The wider HoI4 community has obviously evolved from when it was merely a reimagined HoI3. Regardless, I repeat my points: it is no more farcical than Mussolini's desire to resurrect Rome, and it is quite safe for you to ignore if it bothers you.

Resurrecting the Roman Empire is almost as silly, but in that particular case:
1. There was a living head of state with such (megalomaniacal) goals.
2. Said head of state was in charge of a major military power.
3. Said military power was an active aggressor in the conflict that is the entire focus of the game.

None of those apply for Morocco.

And like I pointed out with the Anniversary Pack, these seemingly-minor content additions can and DO introduce bugs that break other functionality in the game. How are users supposed to just ignore it then? At that point it does divert manpower to fix it. https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198007561595/recommended/642010/

The Muslim heritage of Iberia and it seeing a relatable expression to others already in the game is not comparable to implementing 'zombie troops'; and it is rather insulting to see such expressed.

"relatable expressions"? Who comes to a WAR SIMULATOR looking for this? HoI is not an RPG. Blitzkrieg doesn't care about feelings.

Even if we were to come at it from a presupposition of bad faith and racism

I'm really curious what race you think some of the posters in here are. You probably shouldn't toss around thinly-veiled and unsubstantiated accusations unless you have plenty of firepower to back it up. From where I sit you are bringing an MRE Spoon to an artillery duel.

 

[Axe99]

And like I pointed out with the Anniversary Pack, these seemingly-minor content additions can and DO introduce bugs that break other functionality in the game. How are users supposed to just ignore it then? At that point it does divert manpower to fix it. https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198007561595/recommended/642010/

Everything that involves a change of code (and some changes of art) potentially introduce game-altering bugs. However, in terms of the way the scripting works, the potential for game-breaking bugs from formable countreis is really small. There's nothing wrong with not being familiar with the scripting of formables, but in terms of any risk analysis, the risk of any bug affecting anything other than the formable not working is tiny. As best I understand it, there is no way that a formable that's incorrectly scripted (in the core code - formables in a modded file will obviously nix ironman, as would everything else except (iirc) locs and the actual graphics files) could break ironman.

This really is one of those things where both sides can have their fun without it causing the other pain. This isn't something like introducing different calibres of naval ammunition along with on-ship and on-base ammo stocks, or separate diesel, petrol and heavy fuel oil for ships as separately trackable stockpiles (just a reminder that everyone should be very glad I'm not in charge of developing the game, as it'd have an audience of a few hundred at best, and no resources, but it'd be the best damn naval ammunition consumption simulator in the history of wargaming ) which would substantially change the nature of the game - the formables in the DD are optional extras that at the very worst mean more people play the game so there's more resources to develop the core stuff as well. At least where I come from, more fun for everyone is a good thing .

As an aside, it's also something that's very, very easy to mod out if people are that passionate about it. I've been out of regular modding for over a year ( Barring calamity, I hope to eventually get back into it) and I reckon I could have the formables modded out in less time than it took to make the last two posts I've made in this thread.

Edit: Also best to stick to discussing the issues rather than starting to make personal attacks, or comparing spoon sizes. Much more productive.

 

[Riftwalker]

i'm pretty sure i'm a core player, i keep coming back and i play fairly regularly, and I plan to play al-andalus eventually. wish we had more triumph stuff.

 

[Noble713]

Everything that involves a change of code (and some changes of art) potentially introduce game-altering bugs. However, in terms of the way the scripting works, the potential for game-breaking bugs from formable countreis is really small. There's nothing wrong with not being familiar with the scripting of formables, but in terms of any risk analysis, the risk of any bug affecting anything other than the formable not working is tiny. As best I understand it, there is no way that a formable that's incorrectly scripted (in the core code - formables in a modded file will obviously nix ironman, as would everything else except (iirc) locs and the actual graphics files) could break ironman.

Now THAT is a well-constructed and factual counter-argument. Have an upvote good Sir.

This isn't something like introducing different calibres of naval ammunition along with on-ship and on-base ammo stocks, or separate diesel, petrol and heavy fuel oil for ships as separately trackable stockpiles (just a reminder that everyone should be very glad I'm not in charge of developing the game, as it'd have an audience of a few hundred at best, and no resources, but it'd be the best damn naval ammunition consumption simulator in the history of wargaming )

As an Aurora 4X player, I'd enjoy your logistician's nightmare simulator.

I'd really like to make my own grand strategy game, but I've been fighting information overload/decision paralysis and the limitations of my own C++ skills. I wanted to build a "game" engine that I could use both for multi-agent command & control AI development, as well as for gaming. But I get wrapped around the axle on defining the coordinate space, global hex-grids with multiple scales/zoom levels, and 3D frameworks. Not to derail the thread, though....

 

[Alfray Stryke]

soviets... lightning weapons? next you'll tell me einstein makes a time machine.


rubber boots in motion

That was indeed my intended reference.

 

[Vorondil]

To be honnest I don't care about fantasy formables.
That is at most one hour of work, and in this case done as free time.
This particular case need also lots of unplausible in game chain of events to be available, so for me it just doesn't exist.

What worries me more is this little citation I already quoted before :

prioritising fun and layered objectives over any historical believability.

That is kind of suspicious about the dev team general philosophy.

"Fun" is not a rational concept.
What I find "fun" may be boring for another person.
Here, in this case, "fun" are memey stuff (fantasy things outside the original scope of the game). And I personaly find this kind of stuff boring.

In a more general point of view, what the "historical players" are critizing is not particulary that weird formable decision, but a chain of "fun" things that needed a lot of development time and that are completely out of the scope of plausible WW2, while things that are the core of the ww2 experience are missing.

Don't tell what I'm not saying : I've nothing against alternative history and some feature that should be core of ww2 experience still need time and resources to be properly implemented into the game (a better logistic system for exemple?)

What I'm criticizing are the choice of unplausible a-historical scenario (communist Japan, return of monarchy everywhere, Trotsky leading Mexico, communist or fascist usa...)over plausible ones.
And also I can understand the common critic of doing focus trees of non belligerent minor countries (portugal) instead of the many belligerent ones still left to default.
On contrary of formable decisions, focus trees are realy time consuming for content designers and are not done during their free time.

And lets face it : the "fun" content is way better when done by modders without time limit. Just see the number of popular memes mods available and of alt-histories stories à la Kaiserreich.

So why don't let the modder do all the silly "fun" stuff they can imagine and have the dev team concentrate on the core WW2 experience?
That would please both customer bases : the historical fan would get what they want from a WW2 wargame while the casual memers would still have "fun" content with mods.

That being said, I respect a lot the dev work and can't wait for the espionnage/resistance features in the next dlc.
That current debate should not let forget that the game is improving toward more ww2 features anyway.

 

[CPU Taro]

Blitzkrieg doesn't care about feelings.

Lol, thank you for making me laugh with the silliest ~snowflake~ insult yet.

I can't make apology for implying the current and widespread islamophobic tendencies in the west, even unawares, might be playing a part in some people's highly disproportionate response to something as small as a formable being added. (Racism sadly runs deep among Paradox's fanbase — if it didn't, we wouldn't literally need a post reminding people to not use 'kebab' for God's sake It's an issue, and it colours people's reactions.)

You're playing a game and efectively complaining about variance. You can lock historical focuses, but beyond that, what is the issue? There's limits to LARPing in any world with variance.