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HOI4 Dev Diary - News from the Eastern Front

Hi everyone! It’s time to touch base and start talking about what we have been up to since we released 1.6.2. We have been both preparing to start on the next big expansion which will come together with the 1.8 “Husky” Update as well as working on various tasks for 1.7 ‘Hydra’ which is the next upcoming release. Let's jump in. Beware, it’s going to be pretty wordy!

1.7 ‘Hydra’
So first up, why 1.7? This is because we are now going 64-bit which will mean you can no longer run HOI4 on 32-bit, so we want to make it clear it is a different technical base. More on this next dev diary though.
We have also worked on some of the bugs that have popped up since then, most importantly front issues for Germany vs Soviets. This was something that was reported during 1.6.2 development, but as we dug into things it turned out to require a lot more work than we had planned. We made the decision to do it for 1.7, and instead of just fixing that particular issue we also reworked a bit of how fronts and the ai work. This is going to be what the diary will be about today!
Oh and because people will ask... we are not super far away from the 1.7 release. We plan to let you help test it in open beta soon (where soon means like “within a week” or thereabouts).


What’s new on the eastern front?
Operation Barbarossa, which is the German invasion of the Soviet Union, is one of the pivotal balance points in HOI4 (and in all the HOI games) together with the fall of the low countries, Poland and the Sino-Japanese war. After 1.6.2 we had Germany beating the Soviets a bit too easily, and in particular, players had too easy of a time doing it. This had a lot of different reasons. The primary one is that we spent a lot of time overhauling the German strategic and planning AI which has made it very consistent and strong. Additionally for the AI, being good at defending is a much harder job than being good at attacking. What wasn’t working properly was that when the Soviets finally fell, it was often due to an issue related to frontline stability. The Soviet AI would misprioritize this and move a large part of its front elsewhere, leaving a hole that the German AI would often exploit (which players also definitely did). It’s also not fun beating an AI when it makes such a critical mistake. This particular case was extremely random, but the front reaching Crimea was a common factor. At that point, a new front would open at the same time as the line became long enough to require multiple Army Groups to cover it, which was another weakness for the AI. A lot of those technical issues should now behave a lot better and we are consistently seeing much better performance from the Soviets. Although, they do still generally lose in the end, but this is mostly by design.

To explain why this is a good target, let’s look at our balance targets for Barbarossa:
  • The Axis pushes the Soviet line in slowly until the Soviets lose in 1945 unless the Allies secure a big landing and relieve the Soviets, at which point Germany should start losing with its forces split across the 2-3 fronts.
So why is this a good target?
  • As an Axis player, it means business as usual. You get to beat the Soviets, and the better we make the German AI (which does the heavy lifting), the more challenging we can make it for a player Germany and still retain the balance target.
  • As a Comintern player it means you need to defend, hold out, and push back Germany. Here, the stronger we can make the German AI, the more challenging it is for a Soviet player. So to keep our balance target we want to make the Soviet as tough as possible, but on their own, they need to break by ‘45.
  • As an Allied player, you have a bit of a race on your hands. A Germany that has beaten the Soviets will be a very difficult target, so you need to build up your strength and preferably strike when the German army is as extended, as it will get some solid landing points (ai is better at defending too now, so this is not always so easy). From a balance point, we need to make sure that the eastern front holds up long enough for you to get ready to do this. If the Soviets can push back the Germans on their own, there is no reason to play someone on the Allied side. If Germany beats the Soviet too fast, you will not have time to get involved (especially since the Allies are much more spread across the world and contains more minor nations we wanna make sure can make it to the party).
Hopefully, that clarifies how we think about stuff. At the moment the allies do ok in Africa, but pulling off consistent D-Day scale invasions is something we have as more of a long term goal we are working on. Invasion skill for the AI has improved a lot, but the AI has also gotten better at defending. We have thought out a long term plan to also tackle this, but it requires a lot more strategic planning on the side of the AI with respect to theaters, so it is something you will need to look forward to in the future :)

AI in Hearts of Iron is a very complex problem and something we will always be working on improving. It will never really be “done”. We are feeling a lot better about the eastern front now and shuffling issues there, but there is, of course, lots of work left to do everywhere. It won’t fix everything, but I hope it will feel a lot better when you get to try fighting the Soviets again in 1.7 :)

Tools
So while I am talking about AI, let's take a look at some of the tools we use to stay on top of the strategic situation and to help find relevant savegames, etc.

Every night we run several machines hands-off that record various data for us and lets us check whether we broke something, measure improvements, etc. Loading 30 savegames every morning and going over them is neither fun nor effective, so we have developed this awesome web tool that gives us a quick timeline and map to scan over:

Screenshot_1.jpg


Heat maps also make it easy to scan over time and see where the AI is distributing and focusing its units. This example below is highlighting the Japanese forces late 41:

Screenshot_9.jpg


Unit Controller for Players
So that was all about the AI, but we have also done underlying changes as well as UI that will affect you as a player.

A lot of players liked using primarily Army Group Orders for their armies so we have been doing various improvements there. For example, if you do not want to mess with individual army orders on a front you could already hit Shift-Click when setting up the frontline and it would simply keep all the units on the army group order. This is primarily how the AI handles big fronts now. If you do it this way as a player we have cut down a lot of the clutter you get by spreading multiple armies over the same area by having divisions without individual orders and part of an army group order to simply show and group on the map by using the Army Group color. As an example, this is an Army Group Frontline where each army is assigned a piece:

upload_2019-5-15_16-31-1.png

Now, if you are the kind of player who has a big front and wants to simplify things by giving it all over to the Army Group (Shift-Click to create the frontline) you will get this:
upload_2019-5-15_16-31-16.png


There are still 3 armies there, but because you didn’t care to assign a position we won't clutter things by showing that (this also work for garrisoning which is really nice for big areas). You can still select the individual armies as normal in the bottom bar and in the selection lists etc.

For players who prefer to keep control over where each army is assigned we have also made that easier in two important ways:
  • Each army front piece on an army group front must connect, so no holes are allowed. That among other things means that you only need to adjust one point (the connection point) if you want to adjust how much frontline each gets, rather than trying to adjust 2 points, sometimes while the front was moving and with the game unpaused :S
  • We have added controls to be able to change the order of the armies if you want to reshuffle that. The middle of each line when in Edit Mode will now show arrows which let you swap position for that piece of the frontline with its neighbors.
upload_2019-5-15_16-50-51.png


We have also increased saturation on all the rendering of plans on the map to make sure they are easier to see and to make sure they match their respective army colors better.

Next week we will be going over other bugfixes, balance and other changes so tune in then!
 
@YaBoy_Bobby

How will going to 64 bit affect rolling back to earlier versions of the game? Will earlier versions be 32 bit or 64 bit? Will there be 2 different folders, one for 32 bit and one for 64 bit? Thanks in advance for your response and also for the amount of effort that you and your team put into making HOI4 such a great game!!
 
Hi everyone! It’s time to touch base and start talking about what we have been up to since we released 1.6.2. We have been both preparing to start on the next big expansion which will come together with the 1.8 “Husky” Update as well as working on various tasks for 1.7 ‘Hydra’ which is the next upcoming release. Let's jump in. Beware, it’s going to be pretty wordy!

1.7 ‘Hydra’
So first up, why 1.7? This is because we are now going 64-bit which will mean you can no longer run HOI4 on 32-bit, so we want to make it clear it is a different technical base. More on this next dev diary though.
We have also worked on some of the bugs that have popped up since then, most importantly front issues for Germany vs Soviets. This was something that was reported during 1.6.2 development, but as we dug into things it turned out to require a lot more work than we had planned. We made the decision to do it for 1.7, and instead of just fixing that particular issue we also reworked a bit of how fronts and the ai work. This is going to be what the diary will be about today!
Oh and because people will ask... we are not super far away from the 1.7 release. We plan to let you help test it in open beta soon (where soon means like “within a week” or thereabouts).


What’s new on the eastern front?
Operation Barbarossa, which is the German invasion of the Soviet Union, is one of the pivotal balance points in HOI4 (and in all the HOI games) together with the fall of the low countries, Poland and the Sino-Japanese war. After 1.6.2 we had Germany beating the Soviets a bit too easily, and in particular, players had too easy of a time doing it. This had a lot of different reasons. The primary one is that we spent a lot of time overhauling the German strategic and planning AI which has made it very consistent and strong. Additionally for the AI, being good at defending is a much harder job than being good at attacking. What wasn’t working properly was that when the Soviets finally fell, it was often due to an issue related to frontline stability. The Soviet AI would misprioritize this and move a large part of its front elsewhere, leaving a hole that the German AI would often exploit (which players also definitely did). It’s also not fun beating an AI when it makes such a critical mistake. This particular case was extremely random, but the front reaching Crimea was a common factor. At that point, a new front would open at the same time as the line became long enough to require multiple Army Groups to cover it, which was another weakness for the AI. A lot of those technical issues should now behave a lot better and we are consistently seeing much better performance from the Soviets. Although, they do still generally lose in the end, but this is mostly by design.

To explain why this is a good target, let’s look at our balance targets for Barbarossa:
  • The Axis pushes the Soviet line in slowly until the Soviets lose in 1945 unless the Allies secure a big landing and relieve the Soviets, at which point Germany should start losing with its forces split across the 2-3 fronts.
So why is this a good target?
  • As an Axis player, it means business as usual. You get to beat the Soviets, and the better we make the German AI (which does the heavy lifting), the more challenging we can make it for a player Germany and still retain the balance target.
  • As a Comintern player it means you need to defend, hold out, and push back Germany. Here, the stronger we can make the German AI, the more challenging it is for a Soviet player. So to keep our balance target we want to make the Soviet as tough as possible, but on their own, they need to break by ‘45.
  • As an Allied player, you have a bit of a race on your hands. A Germany that has beaten the Soviets will be a very difficult target, so you need to build up your strength and preferably strike when the German army is as extended, as it will get some solid landing points (ai is better at defending too now, so this is not always so easy). From a balance point, we need to make sure that the eastern front holds up long enough for you to get ready to do this. If the Soviets can push back the Germans on their own, there is no reason to play someone on the Allied side. If Germany beats the Soviet too fast, you will not have time to get involved (especially since the Allies are much more spread across the world and contains more minor nations we wanna make sure can make it to the party).
Hopefully, that clarifies how we think about stuff. At the moment the allies do ok in Africa, but pulling off consistent D-Day scale invasions is something we have as more of a long term goal we are working on. Invasion skill for the AI has improved a lot, but the AI has also gotten better at defending. We have thought out a long term plan to also tackle this, but it requires a lot more strategic planning on the side of the AI with respect to theaters, so it is something you will need to look forward to in the future :)

AI in Hearts of Iron is a very complex problem and something we will always be working on improving. It will never really be “done”. We are feeling a lot better about the eastern front now and shuffling issues there, but there is, of course, lots of work left to do everywhere. It won’t fix everything, but I hope it will feel a lot better when you get to try fighting the Soviets again in 1.7 :)

Tools
So while I am talking about AI, let's take a look at some of the tools we use to stay on top of the strategic situation and to help find relevant savegames, etc.

Every night we run several machines hands-off that record various data for us and lets us check whether we broke something, measure improvements, etc. Loading 30 savegames every morning and going over them is neither fun nor effective, so we have developed this awesome web tool that gives us a quick timeline and map to scan over:

View attachment 480597

Heat maps also make it easy to scan over time and see where the AI is distributing and focusing its units. This example below is highlighting the Japanese forces late 41:

View attachment 480598

Unit Controller for Players
So that was all about the AI, but we have also done underlying changes as well as UI that will affect you as a player.

A lot of players liked using primarily Army Group Orders for their armies so we have been doing various improvements there. For example, if you do not want to mess with individual army orders on a front you could already hit Shift-Click when setting up the frontline and it would simply keep all the units on the army group order. This is primarily how the AI handles big fronts now. If you do it this way as a player we have cut down a lot of the clutter you get by spreading multiple armies over the same area by having divisions without individual orders and part of an army group order to simply show and group on the map by using the Army Group color. As an example, this is an Army Group Frontline where each army is assigned a piece:

View attachment 480595
Now, if you are the kind of player who has a big front and wants to simplify things by giving it all over to the Army Group (Shift-Click to create the frontline) you will get this:
View attachment 480596

There are still 3 armies there, but because you didn’t care to assign a position we won't clutter things by showing that (this also work for garrisoning which is really nice for big areas). You can still select the individual armies as normal in the bottom bar and in the selection lists etc.

For players who prefer to keep control over where each army is assigned we have also made that easier in two important ways:
  • Each army front piece on an army group front must connect, so no holes are allowed. That among other things means that you only need to adjust one point (the connection point) if you want to adjust how much frontline each gets, rather than trying to adjust 2 points, sometimes while the front was moving and with the game unpaused :S
  • We have added controls to be able to change the order of the armies if you want to reshuffle that. The middle of each line when in Edit Mode will now show arrows which let you swap position for that piece of the frontline with its neighbors.
View attachment 480601

We have also increased saturation on all the rendering of plans on the map to make sure they are easier to see and to make sure they match their respective army colors better.

Next week we will be going over other bugfixes, balance and other changes so tune in then!



Has any consideration for the public in contributing directly to your data? For example, if I observe on an Ironman mode, or play in Ironman, game that we can send that to you guys and contribute to the information. Rather than waiting overnight for a computer to do it, you can have our computers potentially do it as well. Then you can have any even greater pool of information available, while also retaining the right to ignore whatever you want to. I run AI games sometimes so I can study how they work, you could even give us a tool to "flag" pivotal points in the AI. I don't know what it would take to do that, but I do feel that a large part of the community would be willing to help.
 
Has any consideration for the public in contributing directly to your data? For example, if I observe on an Ironman mode, or play in Ironman, game that we can send that to you guys and contribute to the information. Rather than waiting overnight for a computer to do it, you can have our computers potentially do it as well. Then you can have any even greater pool of information available, while also retaining the right to ignore whatever you want to. I run AI games sometimes so I can study how they work, you could even give us a tool to "flag" pivotal points in the AI. I don't know what it would take to do that, but I do feel that a large part of the community would be willing to help.

And then we can mine "HoICoin" and impact global economy which may even motivate the development of Vic 3. :p
 
Hi @podcat,

Can you guys also see what you can do about field marshal front issue where some armies (24 division) are being crushed into 2-3 provinces and others spreading over entire front? This is quite frustrating when you are fighting in the east and when you push because one of your armies is spread so thin but other army is stacking on a few provinces.

If you could somehow make armies spread over the entire front equally during all times that would be great.
 
And then we can mine "HoICoin" and impact global economy which may even motivate the development of Vic 3. :p


Can I buy DLC with cryptocurrency? Jokes aside, I was thinking more like, running the game and sending the game that was played to the devs for it to be looked at. But I suppose that works as well. AI MINING HERE I COME!
 
Hmm time for speculation. Husky sounds as if the North gets some Attention, so Maybe Sovietunion together with the whole or parts of Scandinavia, Finland for sure, Norway also my guess
 
Hmm time for speculation. Husky sounds as if the North gets some Attention, so Maybe Sovietunion together with the whole or parts of Scandinavia, Finland for sure, Norway also my guess


My guess is winter will get an overhaul as well, I am guessing its Husky like the dog, not like the operation. So an overhaul on winter warfare, travel and supplies. I also predict a new SF unit (ski troopers) and a change in support tree.
 
@YaBoy_Bobby

How will going to 64 bit affect rolling back to earlier versions of the game? Will earlier versions be 32 bit or 64 bit? Will there be 2 different folders, one for 32 bit and one for 64 bit? Thanks in advance for your response and also for the amount of effort that you and your team put into making HOI4 such a great game!!
The earlier versions will stay 32-bit (so the last 32bit will be 1.6.2). Onwards it will be 64bit.

Has any consideration for the public in contributing directly to your data? For example, if I observe on an Ironman mode, or play in Ironman, game that we can send that to you guys and contribute to the information. Rather than waiting overnight for a computer to do it, you can have our computers potentially do it as well. Then you can have any even greater pool of information available, while also retaining the right to ignore whatever you want to. I run AI games sometimes so I can study how they work, you could even give us a tool to "flag" pivotal points in the AI. I don't know what it would take to do that, but I do feel that a large part of the community would be willing to help.
Thanks for the offer, but I get 10 runs at least every day from our automated systems and if we are in a rush you got time to run to 1942-43 while having lunch which is usually enough.
 
I think what would have happened is an unconditional surrender where Germany would set up various smaller Reichskommissariats and subjects (perhaps even run by locals) for anything past moscow.
I think a Russia after ww1 scenario to be far more likely, everything east of the Ural just descend into chaos. Yeah the Germans may try to set up puppet regimes. Then again I also think that if the Wehrmacht had been successful in the east and eliminated the USSR, the very threat which kept them and Hitler on the same side they likely would have turned on Hitler fairly soon afterwards. Whoever defeated the USSR would be in a perfect position to march on Berlin, set himself up as the new dictator and hand Hitler's head over to the allies along with a suggestion for a peace settlement.
 
If the AI are better at defending, the risk is that this devolves into a huge stalemate. Can you slightly buff the soft attack of arty, rockets, tanks to compensate?

Can we assign 5 generals to a field marshall, and then control 5x24 units = 120 instead of micromanaging individual armies?
 
Cheers for the DD Podcat and what I have no doubt is a lot of sweat and toil on the part of the team :D. Those front changes sound tops, as does that save game analysis tool :cool:. Very much looking forward to the new, improved eastern front (and also like that you have deeper changes in mind as well) :).

A DD on tech improvements and the eastern front is a tricky one when it comes to pics of ships, but there were still important contributions by smaller vessels - the USSR made hundreds (three to four hundred from memory, but that could be out be a hundred either way, knowing my memory) of armoured cutters - tank turrets on boats the Soviets called armoured cutters - that they then used to assist along rivers. Here's one now :).

T34 on the water small.jpg


maybe so. we are discussing it. Its not so easy to use standalone

If it was feasible and not overly painful, it would be super-helpful to modders. I could imagine large mod teams could get a number of members running saves overnight and do similar analyses to how you are, which I'm sure for the likes of Kaiserreich or BICE would be very helpful. Even for slow, plodding single modders like me, it's something I imagine I'd find very helpful.

The North African Campaign was happening at the same time as Stalingrad. The North African Campaign resulted in the Axis losing almost 500,000 men. Maybe the 6th army wouldn't have been encircled if there was a few 100,000 more troops on the eastern front.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_African_Campaign

Very much agree :). Another thing that's often overlooked in the North African campaign was that while it wasn't that significant in terms of numbers of men on the front at any one point in time, it ate up a disproportionate amount of equipment, and particularly aircraft, as did defending the Reich and occupied territories from the RAF and later the USAAF. These aircraft, had they been available to the eastern front, could have made quite the difference. Simple headcount measures of fronts substantially understate the pressure that the Western Allies created on Germany, without which they would have been able to dedicate substantially more resources towards the USSR (the industrial capacity required to produce 1.7 million (I think, going from memory) tons of submarines and warships would also have been somewhat handy dedicated to the eastern front as well).
 
Bring back Armageddon and Abyss; those were great alt-world maps from HOI2.

Also for front lines/AI; blitz order doesn't seem to work like it is supposed to. Fronts are widened instead of attacking along the dictated path.

Another possible solution for naval invasions is give tanks a attack/def debuff along coastal provinces to give naval invasions a chance to do something before German armor push them back into the sea. Also represents the difficulty of using tanks on sand and cliff areas.
 
From historic point of view declared goals are strange. The only chanse of Germany to win the War was blitzkrieg. USSR had more resourses, more territory, more soldiers and the same industry.
In my opinion, the eastern front should motivate Germany to form tank armies and try to break through it. Otherwise, USSR must slowly push Germany to Berlin and beyond.
In fact, by the time of the landing in Normandy, the war for Germany was already lost.
 
Absolutely not. The Royal Navy would stop any invasion attempt cold. Even if it didn’t, the Germans didn’t have the logistics to invade. They were planning on using Rhine River barges in a volatile sea, a recipe for disaster. The forces involved in Sea Lion could be driven back by the Home Guard without a miracle on the German side. Even if the Luftwaffe completely removed the RAF from the skies, their effects would be limited due to range.

You are not taking into consideration the political fallout, and public attitude had Dunkirk not happened. Had the Wehrmacht taken Dunkirk and captured/killed the 224,000 British and 139,000 French soldiers then the British appetite for war would have been MUCH lower and occupation or peace would have been a more likely outcome. . . keep in mind that the survivors of Dunkirk were the British professional army. They trained, and were the backbone of the rebuilt British army of North Africa, Italy, and Europe.

Take them out of the equation and too many social wounds from the Great War would have been ripped open - as happened with the French. The appetite wasn't there for another war. The success of the little boats at Dunkirk was an incredible morale boost for the British and Commonwealth peoples.

Factor in that Chamberlain resigned after the failed Norwegian campaign and Churchill took office on May 10th, 1940. . . had Dunkirk failed on May 26th, 1940 we would never have heard Chuirchill's "We will fight on the Beaches speech." It is possible/likely, that Churchill's government would have failed also. . .
 
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You are not taking into consideration the political fallout, and public attitude had Dunkirk not happened. Had the Wehrmacht taken Dunkirk and captured/killed the 224,000 British and 139,000 French soldiers then the British appetite for war would have been MUCH lower and occupation or peace would have been a more likely outcome. . . keep in mind that the survivors of Dunkirk were the British professional army. They trained, and were the backbone of the rebuilt British army or North Africa, Italy, and Europe.

Take them out of the equation and too many social wounds from the Great War would have been ripped open - as happened with the French. The appetite wasn't there for another war. The success of the little boats at Dunkirk was an incredible morale boost for the British and Commonwealth peoples.

Factor in that Chamberlain resigned after the failed Norwegian campaign and Churchill tool office on May 10th, 1940. . . had Dunkirk failed on May 26th, 1940 it is possible/likely, that Churchill's government would have failed also. . .

There’s a huge, huge, HUGE difference between Britain asking for peace and the Nazis invading Britain successfully. Britain’s political establishment throwing in the towel is somewhat plausible, their military absolutely failing to stop a vastly inferior force who’s naval heyday was over twenty years past and who lack the naval logistics to actually support any resisted invasion is not. We’re not talking Fall Gelb levels of luck here, we’re talking about putting all Axis luck and Allied incompetence during the war into one place, tripling it, and then praying to God that it’s enough for Sealion to succeed.
 
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There’s a huge, huge, HUGE difference between Britain asking for peace and the Nazis invading Britain successfully. Britain’s political establishment throwing in the towel is somewhat plausible, their military absolutely failing to stop a vastly inferior force who’s naval heyday was twenty years past and who lack the naval logistics to actually support any resisted invasion is not. We’re not talking Fall Gelb levels of luck here, we’re talking about putting all Axis luck and Allied incompetence during the war into one place, tripling it, and then praying to God that it’s enough for Sealion to succeed.

Who said anything about Operation Sealion?

What I originally said was this - ". . .then the road would have been open to take Britain prior to Barbarossa."

My argument stands - Britain loses their 224,000 strong professional army at Dunkirk. . . no Churchill speech. . . Luftwaffe destroys RAF. . . England falls