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HOI4 Dev Diary - News from the Eastern Front

Hi everyone! It’s time to touch base and start talking about what we have been up to since we released 1.6.2. We have been both preparing to start on the next big expansion which will come together with the 1.8 “Husky” Update as well as working on various tasks for 1.7 ‘Hydra’ which is the next upcoming release. Let's jump in. Beware, it’s going to be pretty wordy!

1.7 ‘Hydra’
So first up, why 1.7? This is because we are now going 64-bit which will mean you can no longer run HOI4 on 32-bit, so we want to make it clear it is a different technical base. More on this next dev diary though.
We have also worked on some of the bugs that have popped up since then, most importantly front issues for Germany vs Soviets. This was something that was reported during 1.6.2 development, but as we dug into things it turned out to require a lot more work than we had planned. We made the decision to do it for 1.7, and instead of just fixing that particular issue we also reworked a bit of how fronts and the ai work. This is going to be what the diary will be about today!
Oh and because people will ask... we are not super far away from the 1.7 release. We plan to let you help test it in open beta soon (where soon means like “within a week” or thereabouts).


What’s new on the eastern front?
Operation Barbarossa, which is the German invasion of the Soviet Union, is one of the pivotal balance points in HOI4 (and in all the HOI games) together with the fall of the low countries, Poland and the Sino-Japanese war. After 1.6.2 we had Germany beating the Soviets a bit too easily, and in particular, players had too easy of a time doing it. This had a lot of different reasons. The primary one is that we spent a lot of time overhauling the German strategic and planning AI which has made it very consistent and strong. Additionally for the AI, being good at defending is a much harder job than being good at attacking. What wasn’t working properly was that when the Soviets finally fell, it was often due to an issue related to frontline stability. The Soviet AI would misprioritize this and move a large part of its front elsewhere, leaving a hole that the German AI would often exploit (which players also definitely did). It’s also not fun beating an AI when it makes such a critical mistake. This particular case was extremely random, but the front reaching Crimea was a common factor. At that point, a new front would open at the same time as the line became long enough to require multiple Army Groups to cover it, which was another weakness for the AI. A lot of those technical issues should now behave a lot better and we are consistently seeing much better performance from the Soviets. Although, they do still generally lose in the end, but this is mostly by design.

To explain why this is a good target, let’s look at our balance targets for Barbarossa:
  • The Axis pushes the Soviet line in slowly until the Soviets lose in 1945 unless the Allies secure a big landing and relieve the Soviets, at which point Germany should start losing with its forces split across the 2-3 fronts.
So why is this a good target?
  • As an Axis player, it means business as usual. You get to beat the Soviets, and the better we make the German AI (which does the heavy lifting), the more challenging we can make it for a player Germany and still retain the balance target.
  • As a Comintern player it means you need to defend, hold out, and push back Germany. Here, the stronger we can make the German AI, the more challenging it is for a Soviet player. So to keep our balance target we want to make the Soviet as tough as possible, but on their own, they need to break by ‘45.
  • As an Allied player, you have a bit of a race on your hands. A Germany that has beaten the Soviets will be a very difficult target, so you need to build up your strength and preferably strike when the German army is as extended, as it will get some solid landing points (ai is better at defending too now, so this is not always so easy). From a balance point, we need to make sure that the eastern front holds up long enough for you to get ready to do this. If the Soviets can push back the Germans on their own, there is no reason to play someone on the Allied side. If Germany beats the Soviet too fast, you will not have time to get involved (especially since the Allies are much more spread across the world and contains more minor nations we wanna make sure can make it to the party).
Hopefully, that clarifies how we think about stuff. At the moment the allies do ok in Africa, but pulling off consistent D-Day scale invasions is something we have as more of a long term goal we are working on. Invasion skill for the AI has improved a lot, but the AI has also gotten better at defending. We have thought out a long term plan to also tackle this, but it requires a lot more strategic planning on the side of the AI with respect to theaters, so it is something you will need to look forward to in the future :)

AI in Hearts of Iron is a very complex problem and something we will always be working on improving. It will never really be “done”. We are feeling a lot better about the eastern front now and shuffling issues there, but there is, of course, lots of work left to do everywhere. It won’t fix everything, but I hope it will feel a lot better when you get to try fighting the Soviets again in 1.7 :)

Tools
So while I am talking about AI, let's take a look at some of the tools we use to stay on top of the strategic situation and to help find relevant savegames, etc.

Every night we run several machines hands-off that record various data for us and lets us check whether we broke something, measure improvements, etc. Loading 30 savegames every morning and going over them is neither fun nor effective, so we have developed this awesome web tool that gives us a quick timeline and map to scan over:

Screenshot_1.jpg


Heat maps also make it easy to scan over time and see where the AI is distributing and focusing its units. This example below is highlighting the Japanese forces late 41:

Screenshot_9.jpg


Unit Controller for Players
So that was all about the AI, but we have also done underlying changes as well as UI that will affect you as a player.

A lot of players liked using primarily Army Group Orders for their armies so we have been doing various improvements there. For example, if you do not want to mess with individual army orders on a front you could already hit Shift-Click when setting up the frontline and it would simply keep all the units on the army group order. This is primarily how the AI handles big fronts now. If you do it this way as a player we have cut down a lot of the clutter you get by spreading multiple armies over the same area by having divisions without individual orders and part of an army group order to simply show and group on the map by using the Army Group color. As an example, this is an Army Group Frontline where each army is assigned a piece:

upload_2019-5-15_16-31-1.png

Now, if you are the kind of player who has a big front and wants to simplify things by giving it all over to the Army Group (Shift-Click to create the frontline) you will get this:
upload_2019-5-15_16-31-16.png


There are still 3 armies there, but because you didn’t care to assign a position we won't clutter things by showing that (this also work for garrisoning which is really nice for big areas). You can still select the individual armies as normal in the bottom bar and in the selection lists etc.

For players who prefer to keep control over where each army is assigned we have also made that easier in two important ways:
  • Each army front piece on an army group front must connect, so no holes are allowed. That among other things means that you only need to adjust one point (the connection point) if you want to adjust how much frontline each gets, rather than trying to adjust 2 points, sometimes while the front was moving and with the game unpaused :S
  • We have added controls to be able to change the order of the armies if you want to reshuffle that. The middle of each line when in Edit Mode will now show arrows which let you swap position for that piece of the frontline with its neighbors.
upload_2019-5-15_16-50-51.png


We have also increased saturation on all the rendering of plans on the map to make sure they are easier to see and to make sure they match their respective army colors better.

Next week we will be going over other bugfixes, balance and other changes so tune in then!
 
The devs do anything to favor the Germans fans in every possible and completely ahistorycal way. In these game we can had only Mighty and Perfected Germany and countries which exist to fall no matter what happened. Like France, Poland, SU and the rest of Europe.

It should be a race against time, but not for the USSR.
For Germany.
If UK does not capitulate, if the Japanese do not open a second front against the USSR and AXIS do not force SU to capitulate in the 41/42 - they lose.
All other scenarios of the victory of the *thousand-year Reich* in such conditions are fantasies. And it is a pity that paradoxes have chosen this path.

Now comapre these DD with pre-order trailer. Great job/
Mate, you have been pulling this same spiel on every thread regarding the Eastern Front. It has been made abundantly clear that you are a rabid Soviet fan and complain whenever there is anything that tarnishes your image of the Perfect Communist Utopia. Please give it a rest, you are not going to convince anyone, certainly not me.
 
I hope in this update, with some bug fixes come some well needed fixes to focus trees that are intertwined with each other and maybe some updates to previous DLC trees.
 
IIRC 2/3 of the Luftwaffe pilots perished in West or over Germany; not at the Eastern front. Close to 100% of the German submarines were sunk not by the Soviets, that's for sure. Then Bismarck and the rest of the surface navy is not something the Soviets handled either. And all these things had extreme impact over the course of the events.
It is odd to assume that the sinking of a battleship would have had an effect on the outcome of landlocked battles. It is the same story with submarines - and so many more German pilots died over the West because Russia was not strategically bombed - even air force leaders released this was both pointless and impossible. Besides, strategic bombers weren't very effective in battles - but infantry casualties matter greatly, not least due to the strength of some anti-tank weaponry.
 
The devs do anything to favor the Germans fans in every possible and completely ahistorycal way. In these game we can had only Mighty and Perfected Germany and countries which exist to fall no matter what happened. Like France, Poland, SU and the rest of Europe.

It should be a race against time, but not for the USSR.
For Germany.
If UK does not capitulate, if the Japanese do not open a second front against the USSR and AXIS do not force SU to capitulate in the 41/42 - they lose.
All other scenarios of the victory of the *thousand-year Reich* in such conditions are fantasies. And it is a pity that paradoxes have chosen this path.

Now comapre these DD with pre-order trailer. Great job/
Germany has became the "iconic nation" of HOI long ago. Not here to judge about reasons.

So, when devs see that Germany is the most playable nation, they add content for it first. And tweaking balance a bit in it's favour.
 
The devs do anything to favor the Germans fans in every possible and completely ahistorycal way. In these game we can had only Mighty and Perfected Germany and countries which exist to fall no matter what happened. Like France, Poland, SU and the rest of Europe.

It should be a race against time, but not for the USSR.
For Germany.
If UK does not capitulate, if the Japanese do not open a second front against the USSR and AXIS do not force SU to capitulate in the 41/42 - they lose.
All other scenarios of the victory of the *thousand-year Reich* in such conditions are fantasies. And it is a pity that paradoxes have chosen this path.

Now comapre these DD with pre-order trailer. Great job/

But this is a game.

If the player chooses to play an Allied nation, and the Soviet Union always wins regardless of lend-lease, a 2nd front, or anything, where's the challenge? You could sit around as the UK and make airplanes and wait for Berlin to fall. Boring!

If the player chooses to play as Germany, yes, I agree, defeating the USSR should be a right adventure in and of itself. A true challenge.

For gameplay reasons alone, an AI Germany should (slowly) beat an AI Soviet Union. Or, at the very least, it should be a coinflip after 1943-ish. Otherwise, there's literally zero risk for an Allied player.
 
Here are two talks by Jonathan M. House and David M. Glantz that were posted in a similar thread in these forums some time ago. I found them enlightening at the time, although as I remember, they don't dive very far into counter-factuals.

House:
Glantz:
 
I just worried that Paradox will break the Eastern Front the same way it broke the Chinese-Japanese Front in Waking the Tiger. It's no fun waiting six months for the patches to roll in.
 
I just worried that Paradox will break the Eastern Front the same way it broke the Chinese-Japanese Front in Waking the Tiger. It's no fun waiting six months for the patches to roll in.

How can you break what it's already broken? In any case 1.7 is to make the Eastern Front playable again outside of multiplayer games as it will fix the frontline bug
 
I fully support the view that Germany lost on 1st September '39 they had no way of defeating Britain
You're not wrong that Sea Lion was completely unfeasible, but likewise, without the full support of the Americans, Overlord was completely out of the question too, and even with the U.S. it was two years in the making. There was indeed a faction within the British government, led by Lord Halifax, who supported a negotiated peace with the Germans. This was out of the question once Winston "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would at least make a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons" Churchill was the PM (which happened after the disastrous Norway campaign), but had Halifax won, or a motion of no confidence in Churchill following Dunkirk, could easily have brought this about.
 
Honestly, we should just wait and see. Paradox made this decision based on how it would impact gameplay- it would make playing as both the Western Allies and the Soviet Union much more interesting if Germany has a chance of winning without the Westerners coming to aid the Russians. Whether or not it is historical is, ultimately, moot as good gameplay is king (honestly, can we even be so anal about proper historicity in HOI4 when there are focus trees for Communist takeover of Japan, or a resurgent Confederacy in the USA?). I personally believe that Germany lost any chance of total victory in the East when they failed to take Moscow, but much of the factors which led to this are not well represented currently. If this makes for bad gameplay, I am sure that they will change it to something else.
 
Mate, you have been pulling this same spiel on every thread regarding the Eastern Front. It has been made abundantly clear that you are a rabid Soviet fan and complain whenever there is anything that tarnishes your image of the Perfect Communist Utopia. Please give it a rest, you are not going to convince anyone, certainly not me.
And thats says by *Germany* fanboy?

It is very convenient to consider everyone who is not satisfied with the current situation how people with who was brainwashed with propaganda, say that they communists, Nazi supporters, and so on.
 
And thats says by *Germany* fanboy?

It is very convenient to consider everyone who is not satisfied with the current situation how people with who was brainwashed with propaganda, say that they communists, Nazi supporters, and so on.
Yes, which is precisely what you are doing, and have done in the the past. I am not a 'fanboy' of any kind, and it is rather ridiculous to accuse me of being one. In your post, you claim that the devs are deliberately favoring Germany for whatever reason, and claim bias on their part. Which I really do not think is the case. I am calling you a 'fanboy' partially to mimic how you constructed your post here (a bit immature, I admit), as well as on past threads concerning certain aspects of the Soviet focus tree (I will not go into further into this, I am sure you know what I mean). I apologize if I offended you, but quite frankly if you are going to make ridiculous and rather insulting statements, you have to expect the same.
 
This is a game, not the actual war. Germany lost the war on September 1, 1939. You might think that there is a lot of fun deciding the future of post war Europe, but I really doubt that most people would agree.

Germany did not lose the war in 1939. So many ways Hitler could have won.

#1 If Hitler did not attack the USSR and just let the USSR keep supplying Germany with insane amounts of raw materials, Germany could have focused on North Africa and attacked the middle east and then India. The UK would have sued for peace.

#2 If Hitler did attack the USSR, he could have rallied the Ukrainians and other nationalities of the Soviet Union instead of promising them 2nd class citizenship in a new Europe at beat and slavery/death at worst. Or after a month of the invasion, Stalin was ready to give up 1/3 of his country even more than the losses in world war one, just to stop what he thought would be Germany was finishing off his nation. Hitler could have taken the deal.

Those are two of the most obvious pivotal points.
 
All i hope from hydra is for both the soviets AND italy to be given the content update they deserve, same for france. They are really behind content wise making it nearly impossible to enjoy them in vanilla requiring mods to flesh out their content.
 
#1 If Hitler did not attack the USSR and just let the USSR keep supplying Germany with insane amounts of raw materials, Germany could have focused on North Africa and attacked the middle east and then India. The UK would have sued for peace.
This I'm not entirely positive on, logistically a north Africa into middle east into India is actually impossible for Germany, like outside of funny memes and dreams that is a literal impossibility. They were already struggling hard logistically when they reached el alemein. And just to note, it was not a manpower shortage in north africa (pre torch) that caused the Germans to be beaten back. Aside from that of course is also the reality that the soviets were in the process of reorganizing their army in 1941, any later war, and war was inevitable, would have just lessened or nullified the Germans capabilities in at least getting the initial offensive off the ground.


#2 If Hitler did attack the USSR, he could have rallied the Ukrainians and other nationalities of the Soviet Union instead of promising them 2nd class citizenship in a new Europe at beat and slavery/death at worst. Or after a month of the invasion, Stalin was ready to give up 1/3 of his country even more than the losses in world war one, just to stop what he thought would be Germany was finishing off his nation. Hitler could have taken the deal.
The issue you run in there is the rather unfortunate reality of ww2 Germany's ideology. I do not see a way where the nazi government would treat slavs as equals. Even in absolute desperation there were still German officers leading ''volunteer'' formations afaik.
 
Germany did not lose the war in 1939. So many ways Hitler could have won.

#1 If Hitler did not attack the USSR and just let the USSR keep supplying Germany with insane amounts of raw materials, Germany could have focused on North Africa and attacked the middle east and then India. The UK would have sued for peace.

#2 If Hitler did attack the USSR, he could have rallied the Ukrainians and other nationalities of the Soviet Union instead of promising them 2nd class citizenship in a new Europe at beat and slavery/death at worst. Or after a month of the invasion, Stalin was ready to give up 1/3 of his country even more than the losses in world war one, just to stop what he thought would be Germany was finishing off his nation. Hitler could have taken the deal.

Those are two of the most obvious pivotal points.

Regarding point 1: If Hitler hadn't invaded Soviet Union, Stalin would have invaded Germany and that's a fact. War between those countries was inevitable.

Regarding point 2: Agree, if Hitler had allowed formation of Russian Liberation Army in 41 instead of 44, when whole soviet armies were switching sides then he could have won.
Hitler lost the war on the east due to his delusional beliefs, SS and einsatzgruppen attitude to the local population.
 
#1 If Hitler did not attack the USSR and just let the USSR keep supplying Germany with insane amounts of raw materials, Germany could have focused on North Africa and attacked the middle east and then India. The UK would have sued for peace.
I believe this strategy is weaker than the strategy that Germany opted for IRL. With your strategy you're essentially letting your ideological arch enemy hold your war effort hostage and can whenever it pleases strangle you in a matter of months by ceasing its oil exports.

Also the Italian navy had massive issues with supplying the north africa campaign even in its historical extent. Supplying a massive expedition to India would have led to an even greater strain on the already hard pressed Italians. I am doubtful a few more victories in north africa would have forced the british out of the war. Clearly the North africa campaign was merely a sideshow for the Germans and the most likely reason they even sent a few divisions to help was as a measure to keep the Italians in the war for a while longer.

In grand strategic terms there were only 2 ways for the Germans to secure long term success. Either roll panzers into London and force the british out of the war or to secure all the strategic resources they needed for themselves by invading the Soviet Union. To me the second option seems infinitely more likely to succeed in our timeline.

Invading the Soviet Union in 1941 was the right call for the germans.