HoI4 Dev Diary - Subs and Convoy Raiding

[FStefanak]

@YaBoy_Bobby How does adding more submarines scale in terms of how many convoys you can disrupt? Could you give us some estimate numbers so we can understand better?

Say there is a route with 100 convoys with no escorts. How many subs would you need to intercept 10%, 50%, 100%? Do you ever get a feedback on the percentage of enemy convoys you are intercepting?
I assume that escorts would not mess with that intercept rate, but they can enter the combats and fight the subs. Is that correct?

Welcome aboard and thanks so much for your time. So excited about MtG!

 

[him_15]

Finally battle of Atlantic is a thing!

 

[Dunbal]

Looks like the Wolfpacks got their teeth at last.

And this is as it should be. A wolfpack should cause devastating losses on its target. On the other hand, the mere formation of a wolfpack necessarily means that huge patches of ocean are going unpatrolled...

It's still a very big ocean today with satellites and airborne/OTH radar, let alone in 1940.

 

[Alex_brunius]

And this is as it should be. A wolfpack should cause devastating losses on its target. On the other hand, the mere formation of a wolfpack necessarily means that huge patches of ocean are going unpatrolled...

Since the formation of a wolfpack is necessitated by the enemy using convoys, what use would it be for the other submarines of the wolfpack to patrol huge patches of empty oceans when all the targets that they seek are concentrated in the same place anyways ( that place being the convoy that the wolfpack aims to attack )?

 

[Dunbal]

Since the formation of a wolfpack is necessitated by the enemy using convoys, what use would it be for the other submarines of the wolfpack to patrol huge patches of empty oceans when all the targets that they seek are concentrated in the same place anyways ( that place being the convoy that the wolfpack aims to attack )?

There is usually more than one convoy at a time. Ships that cross the ocean also have to cross back. Ideally you want to get them all, track them all, intercept them all. Not just one of them. As soon as your subs are done with one convoy they need to know where the next one is to go get it. Otherwise you might have sunk the small fish and let the bigger fish just walk right past...

Woflpack tactics necessitate a trade-off between firepower and intel. You can concentrate firepower on one point, but you lose intel about the rest of the sea until the wolf-pack units get back to their patrol areas.

 

[RommelTheDesertFox]

@podcat I know this is off topic but I have a coupe of questions that weren’t answered in the previous two dev diaries (I think it was because I was too late to the party) 1. How will the Post-War peace go if you are very historical with the new borders (hoping for accuracy because I am a perfectionist and when playing the U.S.S.R. it bugs me that I can’t take the northern Königgsberg area and then give the south to Poland as well as the proper division of Austria but if your saving that for the next dlc which is rumored to have the U.S.S.R. in it which would be great then that is understandable)? 2. Will Winston Churchill and FDR be getting any new traits or portraits? 3. How many destroyers would you say is required to guard convoys in the three sea zone pattern? Also great dev diary and am definitely looking forward to the next one on submarines (and possible release date) and great dev diary @YaBoy_Bobby I am excited to choke Britain like Germany historically did.

@podcat does this mean I was late again or can you not answer these questions? EDIT: also I only asked about the portraits for FDR and Winston Churchill because the leader of Mexico got a brand new and might I add amazingly great looking portrait.

 

[Catharsis27]

Dont know much about naval bombers.....

If we discuss just german naval bombers / scouts /maritime patrol ive just found FW-200 Condor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_200_Condor [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill']Winston Churchill called the Fw 200 the "Scourge of the Atlantic"[/URL]

Can you add this plane as commerce raider / maritime patrol (so if ships spotted submarines may submitted the the position via radio)?

Thnks

 

[Secret Master]

There is no approach time in the new combat system. Subs begin attacking convoys immediatley.

That's going to change things a bit. No more locking down troop convoys in convoy battle for weeks on end. But now they can be sunk before enemy ships show up to rescue them.

 

[Stug_Life]

There is no approach time in the new combat system. Subs begin attacking convoys immediatley.

Thats a pretty great addition. Also means in mp the British will have to be more prepared to stop raiding in the Atlantic.

 

[Gort11]

There is no approach time in the new combat system. Subs begin attacking convoys immediatley.

This is excellent news. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Klausewitz]

Is there any information yet how spotting works?
Do ships spot only for themselves or can planes spot for ships?

 

[Denkt]

Is there any information yet how spotting works?
Do ships spot only for themselves or can planes spot for ships?

Yes, as far as I understand your navy basically gather "a score" towards spotting enemy vessels. Stuff such as Aircrafts and radar increase the speed you gain spotting and when you have fufilled the spotting bar your navy will either engage the enemy or send a request for the strike force to engage the enemy navy.

Becuase how it works, the side who is able to spot the enemy first will have a huge advantage because their ships will start in combat while any enemy ships that are outside of combat would have a hard time to join Before the battle is over. So investing into spotting may pay off quite well.

Now that is gone, and the primary difference is that Patrol sends the ships out to, well, patrol, while Strike Force makes the ships sit in harbor until a patrol has found an enemy. This is particularly useful if you want your fuel-hungry battleships to remain in port and not use up your precious fuel until you know there is actually something out there to sink.

Finding the enemy is the main purpose of the Patrol order, so you’ll want your ships with good surface detection values to make up the bulk of your patrols - particularly destroyers and cruisers, ideally equipped with Radar and/or floatplanes. If there is an enemy in a zone you patrol, you’ll gain spotting on them, which essentially goes from “there is something out there” to “It’s the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen!” (at this point HMS Hood sorties to destroy them, in an easy and painless victory for the Royal Navy). Weather, terrain and the amount of ships committed all affect how fast you gain spotting. If you time it right, your big ships might be able to break out into the Atlantic before the enemy knows they are there. Depending on your engagement level and enemy strength, your patrol group might just decide to deal with the enemy directly, without even calling in the big guns.

​

 

[Axe99]

And this is as it should be. A wolfpack should cause devastating losses on its target. On the other hand, the mere formation of a wolfpack necessarily means that huge patches of ocean are going unpatrolled...

It's still a very big ocean today with satellites and airborne/OTH radar, let alone in 1940.

Since the formation of a wolfpack is necessitated by the enemy using convoys, what use would it be for the other submarines of the wolfpack to patrol huge patches of empty oceans when all the targets that they seek are concentrated in the same place anyways ( that place being the convoy that the wolfpack aims to attack )?

As best I understand it, it wasn't quite either/or with wolf packs. The doctrine was in place before WW2 broke out, but it wasn't until a ways in that there were enough u-boats in the Atlantic for it to be practical. After it was, though, wolf packs would sometimes form 'patrol lines', covering a band of ocean, and when one of the subs in the line spotted the convoy, they'd radio the others and they'd coordinate (ish - the coordination got the subs to the battle, but as best I understand it, the actual battle was each sub for itself) and attack.

Semi-random aside - one of the downsides to wolf packs (and the German approach to using subs more broadly) was the relatively frequent use of radio to coordinate, which meant Allied RDF (radio direction-finding) often got half-decent intel on u-boat positions even during the periods when Enigma wasn't broken (although Enigma was much, much better), and was very handy tactically in giving warning of an upcoming attack on a convoy.

Intel from both sides was super important in locating enemy shipping or avoiding enemy submarine concentrations, both through RDF and code-breaking (iirc, Germany's B-Dienst was able to read merchant navy codes for much/all* of the war), as was intel from aircraft patrols (the Condor's that @Catharsis27 well mentions above played an important scouting role, as well as for direct attacks on shipping).

* Sorry, can't remember details clearly - pretty sure it was one of the two.

 

[Caporetto]

That would make the UK and her Dominions weaker than ever. It's simply too much for the British AI to handle between the fall of France and Barbarossa.
Balance plz

 

[Solaxe]

Jesus Christ this dlc still hasn't been released!?

 

[Klausewitz]

Probably Q1 2019, maybe Q2. My guess.

 

[Coalora]

Jesus Christ this dlc still hasn't been released!?

Yeah, I think most of us share your frustration at the wait. However, I would rather they work on it as long as they need to get it out *right* the first time. We've all dealt with games that shoot out DLC like mad—which makes the gamers happy—but the DLC is buggy, incomplete, and disappointing. So yeah, MTG has been on my Steam wishlist since June, but I'm pretty confident that when it comes out it will be polished and ready. For that, and for the amount of work the Paradox team has obviously been putting into this, I think it's worth the wait.

 

[Dunbal]

That would make the UK and her Dominions weaker than ever. It's simply too much for the British AI to handle between the fall of France and Barbarossa.
Balance plz

Britain was very near to capitulation. Screaming "balance" to make Britain immune to the sub threat actually goes against any historical grain to the game. Britain should be one of the hardest nations to play at the start. She was under constant air attack, sea transport was being denied her, and her colonies were slowly being invaded with the Germans and Italians in N. Africa and the Japanese in Indo-China and Indonesia.

Any game that gives the UK a 50-50% chance of survival is perfectly balanced in my book. You don't like the sub threat then counter the sub threat. Britain did by inventing ASDIC and Radar and sharing it with America, convincing America to help patrol the West Atlantic and inventing Leigh Lights to bomb subs at night. It was a close thing. Losing all her heavy weapons at Dunkirk didn't help, either. In Britain everything was rationed. It was a tough time.

 

[scarfacemperor]

What about adding food as a resource in the game, with the possibility of starving out countries by blocading them (like the british blocade of Germany in WW1 and the german unrestricted sub warfare trying to do the same so the UK) ?

I'm not asking about it to cause civilian casualties (they are not counted in any shape anyway) but a progressive decrease in stability/war support, and at extreme level a decrease in combat efficiency when it's no longer possible to give soldiers their daily 4000 KCal required for optimal combat performances, would encourage invading food-rich regions (like the Ukraine) and more risk/rewards situations (should I send my navy in a all-or-nothing situation to break the enemy blocade ? Should I harden my occupation policy to take more of the harvest ?)

 

[Steufel]

We have speeded up research and tightened up ahead of time penalties to make it easier to research broad


kinda. you cant get the planes to strike, they are simply scouts improving spotting abilities for the sub

Historically the Japanese Imperial Navy had subs that had planes that could strike, in fact that was the plan when the Japanese sent a mission to bomb the Panama Canal with submarine Catapult planes (but had to back off because I believe the war ended). It would be nice if there was a small tech tree added for that.