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HoI4 Dev Diary - Tech Changes

Hello, and welcome back to another Dev Diary for Man the Guns. Today, we will talk about some changes we have made to the tech and research system.

The biggest of which is, of course, the new tech tree for ships and other naval equipment. It is quite extensive, adding over 50 new technologies. Smaller changes and additions have been made to the armor and infantry tech trees through the addition of amphibious armor and to electro-mechanical engineering through the addition of Fire Control Systems.

techtree.jpg


Many of these techs do unlock new modules, but some do not - ammunition techs, fire control methods and damage control training amongst other don’t, and instead provide passive bonuses. This makes them quite valuable as you don’t have to build or refit a ship to make use of them.

tech4.jpg


The industry tree has also been expanded to accommodate fuel refining and storage. As one would expect, the new technologies improve the ratio of oil converted to fuel, giving you more fuel for the same amount of oil. The oil branch of the synthetic refinery tree no longer increases the oil output of each refinery but instead increases the amount of fuel generated by each synthetic refinery (synthetic refineries are not required to generate fuel if you have natural oil production!).

tech8.jpg


Since this adds quite a bit of research to an already pretty full research tree, we have taken some steps to offset this increase.

tech7.jpg


The first is that we have made a 15% increase to research speed across the board. The second is that a lot of the research in the new naval tech tree (as well as all the doctrine research) benefits from the research with XP system that gives you a fairly significant research boost if you have enough XP of that type to spare. For things like fire control methods and damage control training, researching without XP is significantly more time consuming to represent the lower effort spent during peacetime rather than learning from, well, experience.

tech6.jpg


Lastly, we made some changes to how research bonuses are granted and how ahead of time bonuses are handled. Regular research bonuses are no longer reducing research cost but instead boosting research speed. A previous 50% reduction in cost is now a 100% boost in speed. Ahead of time bonuses have been changed to apply a flat reduction in years rather than a reduction to the penalty, so a 1944 tech with two years of reduction would be treated as a 1942 tech for the purpose of calculating research time.

tech3.jpg


That is all for today. Next week, we will take a look at some of the art and music coming in Man the Guns.
 
I'm a bit concerned about the generic Cruiser hulls. IRL light and heavy cruisers were quite different creatures - the former lightly armed and armoured and mostly used in the screening role (akin to "heavy destroyers"), whereas the latter were genuine capital ships with everything that entails in arms and armour. Can these features be combined in a plausible way within the new design mechanisms?
If you give it heavy guns it will become a heavy cruiser. If not it will be a light cruiser.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...y-ship-designer.1127181/page-10#post-24821799
 
Still think that adding at least 1 more research slot to every country could be pretty useful in the context of 50 new tech to get.

I still think that removing at least 1 research slot for every minor country could be pretty useful in the context of getting a more historical research result in what techs they can get.

Raj, China, Mexico and New Zealand are not supposed to be able to easily research Nukes, Strategic Bombers, Carriers and Heavy tanks before 1945, or even before 1955.
 
@Archangel85

Sorry for summoning you, but I have a question, related to designing the ships in the constructor: as I understood, we will need XP to create different designs, but here comes the issue with XP income - will it be enough?

I mean, for land XP to reform my army as SU I usually had to actively intervene into other wars all around the world, starting from the civil war in Spain, while training divisions at home obviously wasn't giving much. The best situation was with air XP, where I always picked speed over anything, and bombers/CAS are good in farming XP when on task. Naval XP income was funny in it's size when I was trying early agression against Turkey/Romania, so, actually had some small fleet to beat with my Black sea forces. Some steady flow was starting only in the lategame, when my submarines were hunting Allied convoys in Atlantic and Pacific, but, still a small one.
 
You can build everything you want with the new Version and DLC. MTB´s I have in my german Mod (Schiffs- und Flottenkorrektur) and tried to bring them in in 1.4 / 1.5. Others had the same Idea for englisch Players. Now we can build up fleets with Minelayers / Minesweepers, MTB´s, Speedboats, the realistic U-Boats and so on with 1.6 (+) and DLC Man the Guns.

If we get lucky we can do that in February.
 
@Archangel85

Sorry for summoning you, but I have a question, related to designing the ships in the constructor: as I understood, we will need XP to create different designs, but here comes the issue with XP income - will it be enough?

One of the bits of good news is that the naval designer replacing the naval variants is probably going to eat up less of your naval experience. You might, at most, spend just a half thousand exp on the army designer throughout the whole war, while variants can easily suck up thousands of exp if you want quality designs. On top of this, naval exp will actually have a viable pre-war source in the form of naval exercises.

(Of course, if my interpretation of the changes is wrong and we have both variants and the naval designer, RIP naval exp)
 
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One of the bits of good news is that the naval designer replacing the naval variants is probably going to eat up less of your naval experience. You might, at most, spend just a couple hundred exp on the army designer throughout the whole war, while variants can easily suck up thousands of exp if you want quality designs. On top of this, naval exp will actually have a viable pre-war source in the form of naval exercises.
I just remember pretty weird formula of land XP gain through training, where as poor minor with 1 division you benefit more than major with 100 divisions, keeping 1/3 or even 1/2 in training. Ideally, I'd like this thing to be tweaked in the new update too - you pay with materiel and fuel for XP, so if you pay more, you should get more. A lot more. Seems fair for me, I'd say.


_______________


Back to the tech discussion, I also wonder, if devs would tweak other majors techs (not being in the focus of DLC), being researched at the start. A lot of techs are being incorrect for Soviet Union (and posdibly number of other states too - I'm just not that good in OOBs of every major in the game) out of any reason except popular stereotype about it being technologically backward in any sphere. Taking into account that this is after all a NAVAL themed DLC, I'd like to get researched and produced Kirov-class cruisers at the start accompanied by Project 7 destroyers and small number of "Shuka"-class submarines, already existing in 1936. It is not as big work to do, as far as I remember - adding tech is about a couple of strings written in script files.

P.S. @Bratyn can we expect tweaking of available naval tech for other majors in MTG?
 
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Pretty sure the USSR starts with a bunch of Shuka class subs and the tech to build them.
No, these are just incorrectly named (see the topic in my signature) 1st level subs (AG-class, according to the tech tree). True, tech itself exists, but so should be the finished subs in service.

Taking into account, that new system allows more flexibility in designing naval stuff, I'd like to see USSR getting small OOB tweaks in this sphere too, not only Scandinavian minors with their "coastal defence battleships".
 
I still think that removing at least 1 research slot for every minor country could be pretty useful in the context of getting a more historical research result in what techs they can get.

Raj, China, Mexico and New Zealand are not supposed to be able to easily research Nukes, Strategic Bombers, Carriers and Heavy tanks before 1945, or even before 1955.

So just because some madman is okay to waste his country to research nukes in 45 you would go for mass punishing the small countries by removing a research slot from them. Interesting reasoning for sure.
 
So just because some madman is okay to waste his country to research nukes in 45 you would go for mass punishing the small countries by removing a research slot from them. Interesting reasoning for sure.

All Minors AFAIK can get 5 techslots which is the same as majors, so it's not especially mad at all to go for nukes as a minor after you captured enough factories and when playing a late game after 1945 and got nothing else meaningful left to research...

And when it comes to Raj they even get a -75% research time reduction so they can get the final nuke techs in 1 day even when rushing it ahead of time. ( Which hopefully will be fixed or at least improved by the tech changes changing it to a speed increase instead ).

Do you think spending 1 day on a research is "wasting his country"? Do you think it's good for a balanced and historical game to have all minors able to easily get the same research capacity as majors do after they have taken over a neighbor or two or just built up their industry a bit?
 
All Minors AFAIK can get 5 techslots which is the same as majors, so it's not especially mad at all to go for nukes as a minor after you captured enough factories and when playing a late game after 1945 and got nothing else meaningful left to research...

And when it comes to Raj they even get a -75% research time reduction so they can get the final nuke techs in 1 day even when rushing it ahead of time?

Do you think spending 1 day on a research is "wasting his country"? Do you think it's good for a balanced and historical game to have all minors able to easy get the same research capacity as majors do after they have taken over a neighbor or two or just built up their industry a bit?
Well, taking into account latest additions to tech trees, I'd add one more slot to every major, not remove the one from minors.
 
Well, taking into account latest additions to tech trees, I'd add one more slot to every major, not remove the one from minors.

That is what I am considering doing in my mp mod as well, but probably in combination with making ahead of time research harder unless Paradox changes in this area are severe enough, and in combination with other nerfs to minors.
 
If you give it heavy guns it will become a heavy cruiser. If not it will be a light cruiser.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...y-ship-designer.1127181/page-10#post-24821799

"Convert CL to CA by replacing 152 with 203" can only be applied to those near or larger than 10000t, like Mogami or Cleveland. But you can never mount 8 inch turrets on smaller CLs like Atlanta, Dido or Sendai, too heavy for them.

Historically there are two types of cruiser hulls, 5000-7500t and 10000-15000t, better to distinguish between them.
 
"Convert CL to CA by replacing 152 with 203" can only be applied to those near or larger than 10000t, like Mogami or Cleveland. But you can never mount 8 inch turrets on smaller CLs like Atlanta, Dido or Sendai, too heavy for them.

Ofcourse you can.

Furutaka and Aoba class ( both 7100 ton ) were armed with 203mm guns.

That's not far from the Atlanta class ( 6700 ton ) and Dido class ( 5800 ton ).

You might need to reduce them to single mount though instead of twin if your doing a refit and not designing the ship around the gun, but that is totally doable.


If your ready to compromise with the design there is nothing preventing you from mounting battleship caliber gun on similar sized ships, look at these ship classes for example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erebus-class_monitor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberts-class_monitor
 
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Upgrades are possible, but the limitations for the Tonnage (Hull) is the Point. Sure you can upgrade to bigger Guns but then you have to reduce Flak, Torpedos or other important things. Better smaller fast firing gun-turrets then bigger lower firing gun-turrets.

Why do you think the english Navy had so much ships not gun-upgraded? They upgraded the much more important Systems (like Radar, Asidc etc.) and lighter Weapons (Flak, Torpedos etc.) instead the normal Gun-Turrets from light and heavy Cruisers. Some light Cruisers get a upgrade to Flak-Cruisers but that´s all.
 
Ofcourse you can.

Furutaka and Aoba class ( both 7100 ton ) were armed with 203mm guns.

That's not far from the Atlanta class ( 6700 ton ) and Dido class ( 5800 ton ).

You might need to reduce them to single mount though instead of twin if your doing a refit and not designing the ship around the gun, but that is totally doable.


If your ready to compromise with the design there is nothing preventing you from mounting battleship caliber gun on similar sized ships, look at these ship classes for example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erebus-class_monitor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberts-class_monitor

Standard displacement of Furutaka and Aoba should be around 8100t, and full displacement around 9500-10000t.

Of course you can have 3 single 203mm turrets on a Dido, as you can even have a 8 inch gun on a destroyer (USS Hull) or a 18 inch gun on a 6000t hull (HMS Lord Clive), but that's not the usual case and it's not the duty of the ship design system in game to include all the extreme cases. BTW, hulls of cruiser and monitor are different and should be seperated.
 
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