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HoI4 Dev Diary - ¡Viva España! - Nationalist Spain Focus Tree

Hola everyone, and welcome to a new dev diary on the upcoming DLC for HoI4, where we’ll be talking about the first entirely new focus tree: Nationalist Spain.


Design Intent

The Spanish Civil War is perhaps the single most important event occurring in the game’s build-up phase, but it is often over in the blink of an eye. In addition, aside from the likes of perhaps Turkey and Brazil, Spain is also strategically one of the most fun nations to play, as you have a decent powerbase from which to expand, after the aforementioned civil war.

In fact, the Spanish Civil War was such an important historical event that we have accorded Spain with special attention and, in what is our biggest Focus Tree project to date, made not one, but two full-sized Spanish Focus Trees; one for each side in the civil war - to fully encapsulate the sheer complexity and, dare I say, chaotic madness of the period. This allows us to much better take into account all the different possible political outlooks for a Spanish nation, depending on who wins the Civil War. While these trees are entirely new in the sense that Spain did not yet have a focus tree, they are also a rework in the sense that the civil war was previously already represented in the game. However, this representation suffered from various issues:
  1. The civil war suffered from normal gameplay causing it to be over far too quickly.
  2. The civil war was overly simplified to deal with constraints placed upon it by core game mechanics.
  3. The start of the civil was fully random and the player had no way of knowing when it was likely to appear, nor did they have any way to control this.

To delve a bit further into the first point, an experienced player might be able to finish the civil war within just a couple of months, and even the less-experienced players would almost never come even close to the historical duration of nearly 3 years. This caused problems with other focus trees, as various nations that have focuses to intervene in the civil war (such as France) could find themselves into a situation where they were unable to use these. If a nation had just selected a focus before the civil war started, it could take a total of 140 days to finish the focus that was started and then finish the Intervention focus as well. Add to this Volunteer travel time, and it was fully possible for the civil war to have already ended before volunteers even arrived. Adding cancellable focuses later reduced this, but still did not eliminate the problem.

The purpose of the design for the new Spanish trees was thus four-fold:
  1. Lengthen the duration of the civil war using artificial means, to allow this period to be better represented in the focus tree, and allow other nations time to intervene.
  2. Use dedicated time to truly flesh out the rich flavor and history during this period and do some of the weirder stories from the civil war justice.
  3. Increase player control over and predictability of the start of the civil war.
  4. Give Spain new build-up and goals to achieve after the conclusion of the civil war, involving it into the larger world conflict in due time.
Obligatory disclaimer:

Still under development, much of the art is still under production, values and even systems may end up changing as a result of testing, yada yada. You guys should know the routine by now ;)

That being said, let’s delve into it:

Spain tree overview.jpg


Nationalist Spain Starting Situation

Spain in 1936 is a nation at the precipice. In the century preceding the game’s start date the country only experienced brief periods of relative peace, interspersed with long periods of extreme political instability and violent upheaval. In 1830, in a surprising deviation from Salic law, the ageing king Ferdinand VII named as successor not his brother Infante Carlos, but instead his daughter Isabella II. For the next four decades, supporters of Infante Carlos, called Carlists, would start multiple civil wars in an attempt to reinstate the (in their view) rightful line of succession and annul this Pragmatic Sanction. Though victorious, Isabella II, herself, would be ousted in a Republican rebellion in 1868, after which the First Spanish Republic was declared. This, itself, only lasted 6 years before the return to monarchy, though Isabella had abdicated by this point. Next, almost at the turn of the century, 1898 saw the disastrous Spanish-American war in which Spain’s navy was crippled and much of its remaining colonial influence dismantled, leaving it with only its few African colonies. The national shock that this caused eventually resulted in the “Reformation”, culminating in a coup and the creation of a dictatorship under Miguel Primo de Rivera. This, in turn, more or less dissolved peacefully in 1930, when it was replaced by the Second Republic. Another coup attempt by a disloyal military in 1932 and a violent revolutionary Miners’ Strike in 1934, in the beating down of which Franco played a key role, complete this abridged list of Spanish disasters.

Dev Diary initial spirits.png


In the game, the situation is represented by various national spirits, representing the various challenges the government is faced with:
  • Carlism; though their uprisings were repeatedly beaten down over the course of the 19th century, Carlist sentiment is still very much alive and kicking, and their Requetés continue to train in preparation for the inevitable uprising… This Spirit steadily ticks down stability, increases ticking Unaligned support slightly, and reduces attack and defense values for divisions, representing Carlist elements within the military not following orders.
  • Military Disloyalty; ever since the failed 1932 Sanjurjada uprising, the military has been plotting… The government is aware of this to some degree, and interfering too directly with army matters may well spark another uprising. The trick is to prepare while avoiding kicking the proverbial hornets’ nest… This Spirit locks all division templates, preventing changes from being made to them, new units being produced from them, or existing units being deleted.
  • Political Violence; Spanish society has been, and continues to be, marred by political violence. This is only increasing in severity as 1936 progresses. This Spirit reduces stability.
  • National Strikes; the political Left is increasingly organizing national strikes to pressure the government into accepting communist or anarchist reforms, while also doing their best at opposing the rise of fascism domestically. This Spirit reduces stability, construction speed, and factory and dockyard outputs.

In addition, various states (Galicia, Basque Country, and Catalonia) begin the game with a “Statute of Autonomy”, reducing maximum buildable factories, recruitable population, available resources, and construction speed in that state. Various focuses in the tree remove this.

Early on in the design phase it was decided that there should be no way to avoid the civil war. It would cause far too many edge-cases that would have to be solved, it makes no historical sense (Spain’s political landscape was already far too divided and polarized at the time of HoI4’s start date), and the civil war is quite frankly far too important for the early-game in HoI4. Accordingly, as you load up the focus tree in the game you are presented with only a single choice: do I go with the Nationalists or the Republicans?

Dev Diary initial choice.png


Your choice has no impact on the results of the February 15 1936 elections (as even historically, despite vastly superior resources and a much greater election campaign compared to the Popular Front, the CEDA (alliance of right-wing parties) still lost the election) but it does decide who you will play as henceforth. This dev diary focuses specifically on the new focus tree for the Nationalists, and so we will look at things from their perspective.

Historically, in the period directly after the electoral victory of the Popular Front, political violence began to escalate while disloyal elements of the military, many of whom had been participants of the 1932 failed Sanjurjada uprising and had since lived in exile in Portugal, began to plot yet another coup attempt. The failure of this coup is what subsequently resulted in the civil war. In the new Nationalist tree this is represented by a number of decisions and missions that become available upon conclusion of the elections.

The first of these is a ticking counter, lasting a base of 250 days, and triggering the civil war when it times out. (1. In the picture)

A second is a series of missions that represent the ‘focuses’ the other side (in this case the Republicans) are taking in their own preparation for the civil war. This allows the player to keep track of what is happening. (2. In the picture)

Thirdly, a set of decisions become available tying into the whole atmosphere of political violence, allowing the player to speed up the start of the civil war (represented by reducing the number of days remaining on the civil war start timer mission), while, conversely, the ‘other side’ generates periodic missions that instead delay the start of the civil war, attempting to buy themselves more time before it begins. (3. In the picture)

And finally, repeatable on-map decisions appear on all Spanish core states, allowing you to expand influence in garrisons or even outright claim them to be added to your side upon the start of the civil war, if your influence is high enough. (4. In the picture)

Dev Diary pre-civil war decisions.png


As the above decision system currently functions (subject to change), the very earliest it is possible to start the civil war is in early August, and, assuming the player does nothing, the very latest is in early 1937, which gives the Republicans the time they need to complete every one of their possible preparations.

The Nationalist focus tree, after the initial choice, continues with a single path of 6 focuses (two of which are mutually-exclusive). Each of these lasts for only 35 days, resulting in full completion of this initial branch by July 29th, and giving bonuses such as large lump sums of political power, spawning extra Carlist and Army of Africa divisions at the start of the civil war, setting garrison support in 7 states in the north of the country to ‘full’ (those historically seized by the Nationalists at the civil war’s start), and, eventually, choosing whether to include “Miss Canary Islands 1936” Francisco Franco (so named by the other plotting officers due to his indecisiveness on joining the rebellion) in the plans of the coup. Soon after the July 29th date, an event fires informing the player that the planning for the coup is now complete, and resources (read: political power gain) have to be spent on remaining hidden until the political instability in the country is ripe to sufficiently support a coup and ensure another failure like in 1932 does not happen. In addition to the ever-increasing Republican counter-preparations, which take a lot longer to get into full swing, this means that the optimal time to kick off the civil war as the Nationalists would be as soon as possible, in early August, as this is when they are at their strongest relative to the Republicans. Once started, the Nationalist side will be led by a Military Junta, of which the leadership remains to be asserted by any of the major parties...

Dev diary initial path.png


The civil war triggers when the timer runs out, and rather than being represented simply by two civil war factions, we now use two separate tags, for reasons that will become clear later on in this dev diary. All states that fell under Total garrison control for the Nationalists will join that side, while all others will remain with the Republicans. However, states that have some level of Nationalist garrison control in between Total and None will spawn Nationalist divisions within them, depending on the level of control they had (there are four levels of control in total). This serves to greatly increase the chaotic start of the civil war, and for 7 days (preliminary duration) after the civil war the Nationalists receive a spirit “Planned Uprising”, greatly increasing their maximum days without supplies, allowing them to make the most of this time to achieve a ‘land grab’. After this, just as historically, the ‘frontlines solidify’. A terrain modifier is placed all over Spain greatly increasing defense, reducing movement speed, and reducing planning (these effects may change depending on testing). The idea is that this will greatly slow down the civil war, while also illustrating the historical nature of the civil war as “a bunch of soldiers sitting on hilltops staring angrily at each other”, with only the occasional well-planned and -prepared offensive, owing largely to the difficulty of sending equipment to the frontlines both sides experienced. A set of on-map decisions allows for the planning of offensives, which remove the modifier from an entire state, allowing for much faster-paced action here. Both sides are able to use these decisions.

Dev Diary offensives decisions.png


The tree then opens up into a trio of choices representing the nature of the Nationalist uprising at the time. Broadly speaking, there were three different groups that banded together against the government: the Falange, the Carlists, and the military officers who had been disloyal ever since before the 1932 coup attempt.


Falange (Fascist) Branch

The Falange was a relatively new political movement, founded in 1933 by José Antonio Primo de Rivera, son of old dictator Miguel Primo de Rivera, who ruled Spain between 1923 and 1930. José Antonio Primo de Rivera’s intent was a political movement that would oppose ‘both the Left and the Right’, and would organize the nation into a national syndicalist state as a third alternative to Capitalism and Communism. Many of the plotting military leadership had loyalties or sympathies towards the movement, but its rise was also the direct cause for the creation of the anti-fascist Popular Front that would win the 1936 elections. Primo de Rivera himself, leader and founder of the party, was arrested after the election for inflammatory speeches he made in the aftermath of the election and during the build-up to the civil war.

Dev Diary falange civil war branch.png


The Falange tree gives some opportunities for early infrastructure and military industry construction (uniquely even during the civil war), as well as the ability to have Fifth Columnists rise up in hostile territory to attack the enemy in the rear. This term actually stems from the Spanish Civil War itself, and so it felt appropriate to represent it in the focus tree. In addition, the Falange can request support from the Italians and Germans (provided these are also Fascist). The more important early orders of business are, however, ensuring the safe return of Primo de Rivera by means of a prisoner exchange, lest the Falange’s leader is executed by the Republican government. Before he may assume leadership, however, a temporary military government called The Directorate will be established, as planned by Emilio Mola, the Grand Architect of the uprising.

emilio_mola_screenshot.png


The final major hurdle during the civil war comes in the form of the Carlists, whose views are not necessarily compatible with those of the Falange. Upon selecting the Falangist path, a timer mission kicks off, counting down until the inevitable Carlist uprising-within-the-uprising, as the Carlists become increasingly aware of being sidelined in the Nationalist decision-making process and will not accept this. This uprising may be sped up by taking the focus Eliminate the Carlists, which will instantly start the uprising but also provides a temporary combat bonus against them, aiding in hopefully rooting them out quickly. The “uprising-within-the-uprising” will spawn a third Spanish tag (as both the Nationalists and the Republicans are already handled by different tags in the new system), which will gain territory in the north, mostly centered around Navarra (if this is controlled), and load its own Carlist focus tree which it may continue if it happens to win the war.

Dev Diary eliminate carlists.png


Once the civil war is won, the time comes to replace the temporary Directorate with a new National-Syndicalist State under the leadership of Primo de Rivera. From this point on the tree takes inspiration from the Falange’s “27 Points” manifesto. Examples are the syndicalization of industry and labor, the elimination of regional autonomies, mandatory pre-military training and service, the recreation of a powerful navy to empower the Spanish “will to Empire”, a “Spanish Destiny”, and, ultimately, the re-taking of old Spanish colonies, returning the nation to a status of World Power.

Dev Diary falange post-civil war branch.png


A final branch deals with industrial build-up, which, uniquely for Spain, takes place after the first war it has taken part in. To take this into consideration and allow Spain to ‘catch up’ a little, despite the years of early warfare, this ‘rebuilding’ branch is a little more powerful than that of other minor powers. The old Recovering From Civil War spirit has been expanded into a multi-level spirit with different levels of ‘penalties’, which must be removed through various focuses in this branch. These are tied in with either receiving economic aid from the Axis or the Allies, or attempting Autarky. For the Falange, joining the Allies is out of the question, and so the choice boils down to Axis or Autarky. In addition, however, a new “National Recovery” spirit is added that can end up giving significant bonuses to help a Spanish player get their economy and army in shape for the Next Conflict.

Dev Diary Falange industrial tree.png



Carlist (Unaligned) Branch

The Carlists provide a more unique approach to HoI. As mentioned previously, Carlist sentiment was still very strong in Spain - especially in the North. They played an integral part in securing the area in the opening phase of the coup, owing largely to their main combat unit, the Requetés, which though relatively few in number were also relatively well-trained. Historically participation of the Carlists was negotiated by Mola in the build-up towards the civil war, but the Carlists themselves had already preparing for an uprising of their own for quite some time, in which the military was assumed to only play an ancillary role. After the start of the civil war, their leader, Manuel Fal Conde, realized the Carlists were increasingly being isolated from the Nationalist decision-making process, causing disgruntlement and enmity directed at the Falange.

Dev Diary carlist civil war branch.png


This branch is unique on the Nationalist side in that, as the Carlists did not really have any international allies, it does not allow the player to request aid from abroad. The initial stages instead focus on securing the country’s North, as this was the historical power-base for the Carlist movement. At the same time, preparations must be made for the inevitable uprising-within-the-uprising against the Falange. Upon embarking upon this path, just as with the Falangist path, a timer mission appears, which, when reaching 0, will represent the Falangists ‘cracking down’ on the Carlists (much like what the actual focus in the Falangist path allows you to do). Various focuses allow you to prepare for this, however, by obtaining support of additional states or generals, as well as allowing you (much again like the Falangist version) to initiate the uprising yourself, providing you some temporary combat bonuses (this would be the focus that the Carlist Uprising mission for the Falange represents). Just like in the other branch, the Falangists are represented by a third unique tag on the map, at war with both the Carlists and the Republicans, and they load their own version of the Nationalist (Falangist) focus tree, which they may continue should they win the civil war.

fal_conde_screenshot.png


Beyond this, the branch focuses on increasing the fanaticism of the Requetés, which historically considered the civil war as a form of ‘crusade’ against liberalism, democracy, and republicanism, and in defense of Christian values. Their faith in God and devotion to their King were paramount, and they even had priests accompany them on the battlefield to administer Last Rites while under fire. This branch, starting from The Crusade Against Democracy until Cultivate Fanaticism, allows to ‘super-power’ your divisions, which you will need because of the lacking industrial focuses and international allies in this tree.

Dev Diary cultivate fanaticism.png


Next is the question of who should inherit the Carlist claim, as the actual Carlist heir of the time, Alfonso Carlos, died heirless in 1936. His appointed successor was Xavier of Bourbon-Parma, but as this was not technically the same dynasty it divided Carlist supporters. Some argued they should now support the claim of the old monarch, Alfonso XIII, instead, even if this was the line the Carlists had been fighting with for generations. The decision of who to support is left to the player. Finally, the tree deals with the re-establishment of the Monarchy, as well as the restoration of the old Spanish possessions: France (which may also be peacefully ‘united’ if the player selects Alfonso XIII or his son as Carlist monarch and the French player/AI has also selected the Legitimist monarchy branch, as the claimant for both of these paths is the same!), the Spanish Netherlands, the Iberian Union, Gibraltar, and, last but not least, a great War of Vengeance to avenge the disaster of ‘98 and reclaim the Spanish colonies.

Dev Diary carlist post-civil war branch.png



Francoist/Military (Unaligned) Branch

The final branch of the Nationalist focus tree takes the perspective of the third and final major group within the faction: the Military - specifically a Military Junta that has elected to invite Franco’s participation. This is the historical branch for the Nationalists, though it has ample opportunities for ahistorical what-ifs. And as the more historically-literate among you might already have pondered; the Nationalists in fact did not experience an “uprising-within-the-uprising”, as has been represented in the other two branches. And so, this branch is the only one that allows a player to prevent the Falange-Carlist antagonism from escalating into full-blown violence, largely thanks to Franco’s quite frankly expert manipulations, ‘divide and rule’ politics, and appropriation of elements from both sides’ ideologies. To better illustrate this, Francoism is no longer a Fascist faction by default, but instead is Unaligned, with the option of becoming Fascist if the player should elect to side with the Axis.

Just as the other branches, upon embarking on this branch a timer mission appears, counting down for a Carlist uprising (assuming Franco would side along with the majority of the military leaders with the Falange). However, unlike the Falange path, focuses exist to delay this uprising. Historically this involved Franco playing various Carlist regional groups off against one another, subverting Carlist and Falangist authority, conveniently allowing the proposed prisoner exchange for Primo de Rivera to ‘fail’ so that one of Franco’s biggest rivals was executed and yet could be used as a martyr for the cause at the same time, and ultimately banishing the leaders from both parties. Eventually, the player can even outright prevent the uprising from happening altogether, which was done historically with the merger of the Falangist Falange Española de las JONS party and the Carlist Communion party into the… well… Falange Española de las JONS (post-1937), using elements from both sides to form an ideology both groups could (or well, were forced to…) compromise on. However, these focuses depend on being able to make quick gains in the civil war to secure critical areas (Toledo province, the entire North, etc. etc.) that in turn open up the focuses required. As a result, a civil war that goes poorly for Franco may rapidly spiral out of control, as they will be prevented from taking the critical focuses to stop the Carlist uprising.

Dev Diary francoist civil war branch.png


Additional aid for this task may be obtained from abroad, as the Francoists share the Falangist branch for support from Italy and Germany, share the use of the Requetés with the Carlists, and also have a unique branch obtaining support from the Portuguese. After the civil war, this branch expands into the Iberian Pact, agreeing that both sides will always join the same side in any war or faction they join (enforced via on_action events), and eventually the ability to create their own faction with the addition of (Vichy) France and Italy; a “Latin Bloc”.

Dev Diary Iberian Pact.png


After the Alcazar has been saved (or if it never was sieged in the first place), Franco becomes de facto leader of the Nationalists. After this, branches are shared with both the Falangists and Carlists again, illustrating Franco’s appropriation of various parts of these factions’ ideologies to support his own position. The entire industrial rebuilding branch is available to Franco, but he is also able to join the Allies, something the Falangists themselves are not. Doing this allows for the most powerful recovery plan available to the nationalists, essentially speeding up the historical “Spanish Miracle” by implementing its policies up to 15 years earlier. Of course, this comes at the cost of selling your soul to the Allies.

Dev Diary francoist industry branch.png


Finally, the player may adopt Franco’s “26 Points” manifesto (identical to the Falangist’s “27 Points” manifesto, with simply the convenient exclusion of the singular point prohibiting the merger of political parties… No, you can’t make this stuff up… ), after which they may decide to re-establish the monarchy with Alfonso XIII (or, if he has died already, his heir) or maintain Franco as Dictator for Life (historical). After this, sending volunteers to Germany in their fight against the Soviet Union and ‘occupying’ the Tangiers enclave (not represented on the map) lead to focuses to demand North Africa from the weak French, retaking Gibraltar from the British, and finally seizing West Africa (which may not necessarily be owned by the same France as North Africa…)

Dev Diary Francoist finisher branch.png



Post-Civil War Recovery Mechanics

One element all branches will share is a tie-in with the Resistance system, as detailed in previous dev diaries. Historically, Franco struggled with guerilla warfare and resistance remaining spread throughout the Spanish countryside for decades after the civil war. This peaked with the Invasion of Valle de Aran by Republican exiles from the French border in 1944. This is presently still under development, but the idea is that both factions lose cores on the territory they did not start the civil war with, and have to “re-core” this land via decisions in the aftermath of the civil war, symbolizing the systematic rooting-out of Republican resistance.

As this is presently in development I have no pictures to show of this. However, I do have something else to treat you to (which the keen-eyed among you may have already noticed)...


Iberian Map Changes

Dev Diary spanish states.png


To increase granularity and aid in the state-specific offensive system the map of Spain has been reworked. 7 new states have been added to Spain (Salamanca, Cordoba, Asturias, Valladolid, Basque Country, Guadalajara, Eastern Aragon), various others have been split and/or renamed, and a multitude of provinces have been added or reshaped. In addition, I have taken care of a few of my (or other team members’) pet peeves: the ludicrously-oversized Gibraltar province has been drastically reduced in size, the new state Santarem has been split off from the previously far-too-large Beja state in Portugal, the Iberia air zone has been divided into three, and a new air zone Western France has been split off from Northern and Southern France.

Dev Diary Air Zones rework.png


And to compare to the old:

Dev Diary old spanish states.png
Dev Diary old air zones.png

Everything discussed in this dev diary (map changes excluded) is a part of the paid content of the as-yet-unnanounced DLC, and for those who do not buy it the Civil War will continue to work as it currently does. Map changes will naturally be available to everyone, even those who do not buy the DLC.

That’s all for today! I hope you’ll join me next week as we take a look at the all-new focus tree for the Spanish Republicans. I will leave you all with a small teaser…

Dev Diary teaser pic.png


Rejected Titles:

NEIN NEIN NEIN pages of dev diary draft

One additional page of dev diary draft due to editing after the previous rejected title was written

Director Mola or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Falange

¡¿Dios mío, dos Spanish Focus Trees?!

Fal Conde and the Last Crusade

Nobody expects the Spanish Focus Tree!

Several other “Nobody Expects… jokes” were shot down.

I’d rather have three or four teeth pulled than go through this Francoist Focus Branch one more time!

“Reality Is Stranger Than Fiction” presents: Spanish ‘alt-history’ focus trees!

Keeping track of all these Spanish and French dynasties and claimants makes my head hurt

INDULGE ME MY ACADEMIC URGE TO RAMBLE ON ABOUT A SPECIFIC HISTORICAL TOPIC

National Lampoon’s Carlist Vacation!

Damn, we didn't finish the updated Franco portrait in time… :(

Let the specific-ideology-selected argumentation begin!
 
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This thread reminded me of something I posted about before. And that is submarines and Air Wings as Expeditionary Forces. German and Italian submarines and aircraft participated in the war on the Nationalist side. Gained a lot of experience.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/submarine-expeditionary-forces.1037886/

German ships transported the Nationalist Army from North Africa to Spain. This was a huge deal.

German and Italian submarines attacked Republican ships.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_military_intervention_in_Spain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_involvement_in_the_Spanish_Civil_War
 
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As Spanish i am proud of you Paradox.

You managed to show the complexity of the spanish civil war and positions of each movement in the nationalist side.

But i am dissapointed on one thing, I did not have the Constitutional monarchy path i wanted with Alfonso XIII.

I am not convinced that Alfonso XIII wanted a restoration of a parliamentary monarchy. We recommend this. I do not hesitate to support the dictatorship of Primo de Riviera and Franco's disposition was also made to remember that the monarchist sympathizers withinthe rebel side were not precisely people for the purpose of democracy or liberalism but rather advocated to create a directory similar to that of Primo de Rivera that they would control power
 
I just want to say that the primary and most elite Nationalist troops should be in Morocco at the beginning of the civil war. The Nationalist player/AI should have to ask the Germans and Italians for transports to get to the Spanish mainland. That's how it happened in real life.
 
I was force to read this thread because I wanted to ensure my Tungsten Trade Resistance idea wasn't already covered in the Spanish Tree update. Sadly, it was not. Having seen however, the incredible amount of resources being put into the SCW (NF Scripts, decisions, artwork, mechanics, etc), I have a question. What if I don't want to play a country that was irrelevant in WW2 (besides being a general/airwing and XP farm for Axis and SOV - an even more so as the SCW is going to always last 3 years, and even more divisions will be allowed to volunteer)??? How will it affect world affairs if you don't play Spain and play historical. Will it be relatively the same?

Now don't give me the answer of "well, don't buy it". I certainly will, as the resistance, intel, and espionage aspects of this DLC are certainly worth it. Hell, I'd buy it just for the armored cars and to use LTs in Recon companies. I'm just curious about The Aftermath (and no, PDS doesn't need a dedicated game to the aftermath of the SCW, they already have one called Hearts of Iron - but fortunately that new game doesn't cover this genre). If I play historical, and not Spain, can I only expect that the Axis and SOV will have better generals and airwings, and be capped at 500 Air and Army XP in 1940??
 
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I certainly will, as the resistance, intel, and espionage aspects of this DLC are certainly worth it.
It'll almost certainly be broken on release though, judging from HoI4's track record.

Heck, MtG's Ship Designer is STILL broken atm.
 
What if I don't want to play a country that was irrelevant in WW2 (besides being a general/airwing and XP farm for Axis and SOV - an even more so as the SCW is going to always last 3 years, and even more divisions will be allowed to volunteer)??? How will it affect world affairs if you don't play Spain and play historical. Will it be relatively the same?

Spain actually was an ever-present factor in the minds of the Allies, up to and during Torch (and possibly later). In ahistorical mode, obviously, all the Spanish content will mix things up a bit. In historical mode, all being well, the content will make the SCW and aftermath more historical, and for countries that interacted with Spain during the war (Primariyl Britain, Italy and Germany) it should also hopefully be important.

Spain most definitely wasn't irrelevant in WW2 - it was an ever-present potential threat to the Allies, and unrealised potential for the Axis (who wanted Spain in the war, but were not willing to pay Spain's rather hefty price for participation). Spanish troops fought on the Eastern front, Spanish workers toiled in German factories, and Spanish tungsten helped make German war material. Negotiations between Britain/the US and Spain had no small impact on keeping Spain out of the war, and on multiple occasions Hitler and Mussolini tried to bring Spain into the Axis and the war on their side.

The above impressions are based on reading Spain during World War II, and various naval books (for things like Torch references).
 
Spain actually was an ever-present factor in the minds of the Allies, up to and during Torch (and possibly later). In ahistorical mode, obviously, all the Spanish content will mix things up a bit. In historical mode, all being well, the content will make the SCW and aftermath more historical, and for countries that interacted with Spain during the war (Primariyl Britain, Italy and Germany) it should also hopefully be important.

Spain most definitely wasn't irrelevant in WW2 - it was an ever-present potential threat to the Allies, and unrealised potential for the Axis (who wanted Spain in the war, but were not willing to pay Spain's rather hefty price for participation). Spanish troops fought on the Eastern front, Spanish workers toiled in German factories, and Spanish tungsten helped make German war material. Negotiations between Britain/the US and Spain had no small impact on keeping Spain out of the war, and on multiple occasions Hitler and Mussolini tried to bring Spain into the Axis and the war on their side.

The above impressions are based on reading Spain during World War II, and various naval books (for things like Torch references).
Granted it was relevant after the SCW historically as "a threat" in many ways, but really can't be represented in the game, besides both factions wooing her with improve trade relations. Whenever I play historical, its just "there", serving as a free land bridge for the crucial axis tungsten trade and to keep Gibraltar safe from land invasion. Yes, the ENTIRE western and med theaters would have been VASTLY different if Spain joined the Axis, but they didn't. So how is this crucial factor played out in HOI? Improve Relations spam??? I'm just looking for something more interesting than that, else it becomes boring and trivial, and I'll just set game rules for Spain to stay Neutral always as I have been.
 
Granted it was relevant after the SCW historically as "a threat" in many ways, but really can't be represented in the game, besides both factions wooing her with improve trade relations. Whenever I play historical, its just "there", serving as a free land bridge for the crucial axis tungsten trade and to keep Gibraltar safe from land invasion. Yes, the ENTIRE western and med theaters would have been VASTLY different if Spain joined the Axis, but they didn't. So how is this crucial factor played out in HOI? Improve Relations spam??? I'm just looking for something more interesting than that, else it becomes boring and trivial, and I'll just set game rules for Spain to stay Neutral always as I have been.

I've no idea - note, though, that if you're playing historical, and you're playing SP, then I'd assume (but it's just a guess) that it's pretty likely Spain will stay neutral. There could potentially be some events or similar that might interact with people, and the modding potential to add more depth to the historical side of the game would be, I imagine, a good deal higher, but we haven't heard anything about Hitler's conference with Franco in southern France in (I think) 1941, or other similar developments, so they may well not be a thing.

At this point, I guess it's important to keep in mind that not all content is for all people - so Spain may (depending on the impact of the espionage side of things) be primarily for the 50 per cent or so (I think it was about this, last time we heard stats on it - but I could be off) of people that play ahistorical, or historical but then they themselves play ahistorically. Spain's still likely to be of value to far more players than multiplayer, for example, which is only used by a relatively small proportion of the playerbase, but no-one is saying that MP should be left to wither on the vine just because a pretty small proportion of people use it (even though I'm in no position to play MP myself, I wouldn't start saying "what use is helping work out desync issues to the 90% (very rough figure, correct me those who know better) of players who'll never use it?").

It's also worth noting that for many smaller nations, even combatant ones, their NF tree doesn't make a huge difference if someone is playing on historical in SP. Even GER's super-duper new tree didn't make a huge difference to my historical games as ENG or FRA, but I wouldn't have suggested for a second it not be made (not least because it's a pretty cool tree :) ).

As always, I could well be wrong or off my face - just talking it out :). You're quite right to perhaps imply that there are things that could be done to make interactions with "neutral, but dangerous" Spain interesting.
 
Actually Alfonso XIII restored parliament in 1930 but they republicans won and he fleed

Actually Alfonso XIII had no other option but to call the elections of 1930 due to the fall of Primo de Rivera regim in which the monarch was also spotted to support that regim.

Actually, the Republican victory was only in the big cities, but a large part of the monarchist and army conservative sectors were not willing to keep the monarch due to his bad public image that was in large Spanish population in general at the beginning of the 30s and he had no choice but to exile himself
 
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Okay so I'm playing as Italy and wanted to intervene in the Spanish Civil War like Italy did in real life. Which was a very substantial involvement. They sent about 70,000 men total to Spain. 50,000 at peak at one time. And "sent" 764 aircraft. They spent a lot of resources in Spain that they could have used during the big war.

However, because of the game rules about sending Volunteers. You can only send 1 Division per 20 Divisions you own. And there is some kind of similar rule about aircraft that is not explained or documented anywhere. It's only allowing me to send 146 aircraft. I can't actually help Nationalist Spain the way Italy did in real life. So I am disappoint.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviazione_Legionaria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Spanish_Civil_War#Italy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpo_Truppe_Volontarie

Also, the Germans and Italians both sent a lot of ships and submarines to help the Spanish Nationalists, but you can't do that at all. So yeah this sucks. Devs need to improve this.
 
Okay so I'm playing as Italy and wanted to intervene in the Spanish Civil War like Italy did in real life. Which was a very substantial involvement. They sent about 70,000 men total to Spain. 50,000 at peak at one time. And "sent" 764 aircraft. They spent a lot of resources in Spain that they could have used during the big war.

However, because of the game rules about sending Volunteers. You can only send 1 Division per 20 Divisions you own. And there is some kind of similar rule about aircraft that is not explained or documented anywhere. It's only allowing me to send 146 aircraft. I can't actually help Nationalist Spain the way Italy did in real life. So I am disappoint.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviazione_Legionaria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Spanish_Civil_War#Italy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpo_Truppe_Volontarie

Also, the Germans and Italians both sent a lot of ships and submarines to help the Spanish Nationalists, but you can't do that at all. So yeah this sucks. Devs need to improve this.

I think that will surely be fixed in part when the next dlc comes out since the "nationals" and the Falangists have approaches called CVT and Legion Condor that I believe will give an event to significantly increase the name of volunteers from both Italians and Germans as some other kind spirit that allows this.

I agree with you there should be an event shortly after the outbreak of the SCW over famous German and Italian airplanes that made the African and Legionary troops move to the peninsula and also add the blockade that German and Italian ships made during SCW in the Mediterranean
 
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Okay so I'm playing as Italy and wanted to intervene in the Spanish Civil War like Italy did in real life. Which was a very substantial involvement. They sent about 70,000 men total to Spain. 50,000 at peak at one time. And "sent" 764 aircraft. They spent a lot of resources in Spain that they could have used during the big war.

However, because of the game rules about sending Volunteers. You can only send 1 Division per 20 Divisions you own. And there is some kind of similar rule about aircraft that is not explained or documented anywhere. It's only allowing me to send 146 aircraft. I can't actually help Nationalist Spain the way Italy did in real life. So I am disappoint.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviazione_Legionaria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Spanish_Civil_War#Italy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpo_Truppe_Volontarie

Also, the Germans and Italians both sent a lot of ships and submarines to help the Spanish Nationalists, but you can't do that at all. So yeah this sucks. Devs need to improve this.
Naval volunteers would be a welcome improvement, as with MtG they completely overlooked the Pan-America Security Zone, which was vital to the UK. I'd trade a little axis naval XP (which is needed), for the USA to help out Britain in its time of need in '41 when a lot of '40 U-boats are prowling around.

Volunteers however are based on how many states the receiving country gets. Didn't you get to the Sino-Japanese war?? You can see that each volunteer force is different in size, based on country size (heh, no IDEA how Communist China would historically end up taking over China in HOI, maybe there are massive buffs from SOV in their NF tree, never played China/Communist China however).

Personally, I get all of the XP that I feel is warranted from the SCW - anymore would be absurd, so I do actually hope they put another mechanism to nerf XP gain during the SCW with La Resistance, as the only way they are getting the war to slow down to 3 years is to nerf attack (any you will still be 'winning', so XP amounts without any other changes will be off the charts, and even more so because as stated above they are allowing even more axis divisions to join)
 
Granted it was relevant after the SCW historically as "a threat" in many ways, but really can't be represented in the game, besides both factions wooing her with improve trade relations. Whenever I play historical, its just "there", serving as a free land bridge for the crucial axis tungsten trade and to keep Gibraltar safe from land invasion. Yes, the ENTIRE western and med theaters would have been VASTLY different if Spain joined the Axis, but they didn't. So how is this crucial factor played out in HOI? Improve Relations spam??? I'm just looking for something more interesting than that, else it becomes boring and trivial, and I'll just set game rules for Spain to stay Neutral always as I have been.

Actually they did join the Axis, they just didn't join the war as the provisions for their entry weren't met by Germany: the delivery of Franco's territorial demands of North Africa, Rousillon, and the tiny portion of the Basque Country in France; along with economic aid.

So you are very much wrong: it's an incredibly easy matter depicting the threat of Spain in the game since them joining the war was never actually a far fetched prospect to begin with. It also fits in well with the focus tree and could be represented through the "Demand French North Africa" focus. If Vichy France exists, then this demand is made to Germany. If Germany agrees to it, then this fast tracks the Nationalist AI to joining the Axis formally, but also make it likely for Vichy to join the Allies which in La Resistance is already going to be a possible thing. This was exactly why Hitler chose not to accede to Franco's demands in real life.
 
Okay so I'm playing as Italy and wanted to intervene in the Spanish Civil War like Italy did in real life. Which was a very substantial involvement. They sent about 70,000 men total to Spain. 50,000 at peak at one time. And "sent" 764 aircraft. They spent a lot of resources in Spain that they could have used during the big war.

However, because of the game rules about sending Volunteers. You can only send 1 Division per 20 Divisions you own. And there is some kind of similar rule about aircraft that is not explained or documented anywhere. It's only allowing me to send 146 aircraft. I can't actually help Nationalist Spain the way Italy did in real life. So I am disappoint.

Also, the Germans and Italians both sent a lot of ships and submarines to help the Spanish Nationalists, but you can't do that at all. So yeah this sucks. Devs need to improve this.

Disagree strongly with you on the desirability of this. It is historical, but yet there are already ahistorical advantages to the nationalists. In reality there were practically no German ground troops in Spain, but in the game they said multiple entire armor divisions. In reality, the Germans barely sent over 100 tanks to Spain, old antiquated models mostly.

It is also true that the Soviets send a much larger ground presence than they had historically, but it's counterbalanced by the fact that they usually only send mountaineers and the massive penalties they get from the purge.

Allowing German and Italian subs to participate would just further skew the balance in favor of the nationalists and basically make it impossible to achieve historical lend lease to the Republic. They actually torpedoed British and French ships in real life, so if that was included it should give France and Britain an opportunity to declare war on Italy early as the US gets with Japan in the Panay Incident.

Perhaps a more ideal solution would be to make it so that in historical mode Germany does not send ground volunteers and only send air volunteers, while also having this happen with the Soviet Union unless the Republic takes the focuses for more expansive Soviet aid. In a historical scenario this means only Italy would be sending substantial ground troops.
 
Actually they did join the Axis, they just didn't join the war as the provisions for their entry weren't met by Germany: the delivery of Franco's territorial demands of North Africa, Rousillon, and the tiny portion of the Basque Country in France; along with economic aid.

So you are very much wrong: it's an incredibly easy matter depicting the threat of Spain in the game since them joining the war was never actually a far fetched prospect to begin with. It also fits in well with the focus tree and could be represented through the "Demand French North Africa" focus. If Vichy France exists, then this demand is made to Germany. If Germany agrees to it, then this fast tracks the Nationalist AI to joining the Axis formally, but also make it likely for Vichy to join the Allies which in La Resistance is already going to be a possible thing. This was exactly why Hitler chose not to accede to Franco's demands in real life.
They joined the axis in December 1942, AFTER Operation Torch and the NW African coast was in allied hands, which is what Franco wanted. Their single volunteer division was recalled in mid-1943 due to allied political pressure. Franco wasn't dumb, he knew he couldn't guess which side was going to win, so he stayed out - that led him to become the longest reigning fascist leader of the 20th century. It was all a ruse, and an effective one.
 
They joined the axis in December 1942, AFTER Operation Torch and the NW African coast was in allied hands, which is what Franco wanted. Their single volunteer division was recalled in mid-1943 due to allied political pressure. Franco wasn't dumb, he knew he couldn't guess which side was going to win, so he stayed out - that led him to become the longest reigning fascist leader of the 20th century. It was all a ruse, and an effective one.

Franco, in fact, as a tree reflects on his part, was not a fascist although if I use this ideology and I do not hesitate to flirt a lot with her when he firmly believed that it could be beneficial for his ambitions of wanting to restore a dreamlike species of an imperial Spain, to difference portuges regime it took too long to get rid of that fascist symbology something that Allied powers did not forgive him for a while
 
Okay so I'm playing as Italy and wanted to intervene in the Spanish Civil War like Italy did in real life. Which was a very substantial involvement. They sent about 70,000 men total to Spain. 50,000 at peak at one time. And "sent" 764 aircraft. They spent a lot of resources in Spain that they could have used during the big war.

A relatively small aside, but those 764 aircraft look like total aircraft sent over the duration of the SCW, not the largest point-in-time total. Given the very fast rate of attrition of aircraft during the period, a max of 146 sounds pretty reasonable.
 
A relatively small aside, but those 764 aircraft look like total aircraft sent over the duration of the SCW, not the largest point-in-time total. Given the very fast rate of attrition of aircraft during the period, a max of 146 sounds pretty reasonable.
And to add on, 70k doesn't mean 70 divisions. Because it wasn't a "fight for your own country situation", volunteer troops were rotated in and out - hell, I wouldn't be surprised if axis soldiers were asked to actually volunteer for it.
 
And to add on, 70k doesn't mean 70 divisions. Because it wasn't a "fight for your own country situation", volunteer troops were rotated in and out - hell, I wouldn't be surprised if axis soldiers were asked to actually volunteer for it.

Italian soldiers were mostly volunteers, though it seems that a few were redirected to Spain after having enlisted for work in East Africa. Apart from ideological reasons (Crusade against Bolshevism), the pay for soldiers was higher than basic civilian jobs, and many officers joined as an occasion to promote their career.