Stellaris Dev Diary #129 - Tradition Updates

[Pointyearedgit]

Nice ideas

Secure Shipping - TODO (CD)
https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/397537/upload_2018-10-11_14-36-29.png

Secure Shipping
With interstellar shipping growing, cooperative frameworks to facilitate detection of contraband is also needed.

Piracy is more about seizing goods rather than subverting trade regulations and tariffs. Perhaps "to facilitate more efficient patrols" or something about organizing convoys would make more sense.

Interstellar Franchising - TODO (CD)
https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/397509/upload_2018-10-11_14-24-37.png

Interstellar Franchising
Unlike the will to make credits, an entrepreneur cannot be everywhere. With distributed charters, profit can be made everywhere.

Replace the last "everywhere" with "anywhere".

 

[Abominus]

Hi there,
What bugged me in every game so far is that in some time, you have to choose every tradition, even if you play pacifists, you have tradition points to spend and will take the War doctrines. Will this be changed, that you won't have enough points lategame, or can do something else wiht them?
Cheers,
Camael

You can also use this mod, if you like more traditions: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1311725711

 

[James Fire]

You can also use this mod, if you like more traditions: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1311725711

There is also Expanded Stellaris Traditions, which has an add on patch for that one you linked.

 

[TheDungen]

No more anomaly discovery chance? And in one feel swoop you made any discussion what to pick first redundant. There is no reason ever to pick anything other than expansion now. And no reason whatsoever to ever pick discovery.

 

[SnakeInATopHat]

I went and checked.

Nope, not seeing it.

Not too presumptious to assume that the people at a sub-forum dedicated to a certain game might just be excited for news of a major update. Also, I'm getting a light-hearted exaggeration vibe from this.

Seems reasonable enough.

That's oddly specific, and gives me hope for a release soon as these things in DDs are usually "can't give you details, subject to change, etc.". Don't see how it mkes the devs full of themselves, though.

Gonna have to arbitrarily decide we're past first part at this point.

Apparently you're ready to accept sarcasm or "exaggeration" as you put it from the devs, but completely miss it when it is done by a fellow member in response.

 

[olvirki]

I see you still gain a new pop when you colonize, as colonization fever still gives you 2 pops instead of 1.

This is not a big problem, but does this bother anyone else? I noticed this recently when I gained a single-pop alien race and decided to move 1 of them to a new planet when that pop had grown to 2, but then I suddenly had 3 pops of that race as a new pop had sprung into existence because of the colonization (or perhaps I had colonization fever and thus had 4).

Otherwise I am liking the focusing of traditions.

 

[Pointyearedgit]

No more anomaly discovery chance? And in one feel swoop you made any discussion what to pick first redundant. There is no reason ever to pick anything other than expansion now. And no reason whatsoever to ever pick discovery.

Ummm ... no. The anomaly research speed can get you valuable resources in the early game and +25% xp to leaders and 10% research speed is very strong.

As with most things, it will depend on your game settings, especially tradition/tech costs.

 

[FiddleSticks96]

That is something I thought about but I'm not really sure how to implement it in game.

What I had in mind was some slider representing your Hunger, which could change the way your Hive behaves.
Have a middle Hunger and your Hive is military stronger, have a low Hunger (your Hive is VERY well fed) and your Hive is better at collecting resources, and have a high Hunger (your Hive is craving your food), and you can either get crazy bonuses or devastating maluses (your Hive is going crazy due to the lack of food).

Your Hunger would raise over time, according to your number of pops, and would be reduced by consuming sentient pops - which would be the only way to get food, farms aren't an option. You can however build farm-like buildings, but instead of growing corn you're consuming pre-sentient species.

Now, a Devouring Swarm that chooses to stay on high Hunger should have a way to tame it, and lose its Devouring Swarm status - but doing so could also backfire and lead to your Swarm going crazy and out of control (internal revolt maybe?).

A similar concept could also be given to regular Hive Minds, if they consume a high number of sentient pops and then "starves", they could have access to the Hunger and become a Devouring Swarm - but we know that giving access to purifier civics mid-playthrough can be ridiculously broken, so I don't know how to do it.

That sounds like it could be an interesting mechanic. It reminds me of a tradition tree added by one of the expanded tradition mods wherein you gain a "fury meter." The "meter" is just an empire edict with multiple stages that can only be moved up or down one at a time. Each stage increases the bonuses you get from the tree, but also decreases everyone's opinion of you. If you ever pick the highest stage you become stuck at max fury. Of course, the -100+ opinion you get from everyone doesn't matter if you are a purifier or devouring swarm.

You could maybe design this mechanic in a similar way, where an event fires every x amount of years and changes how high or low the edict is depending on your hunger? 2.2 will also allow you to do some pretty crazy stuff with hive economics. I'm excited to see what you will do in the future, as Hive Minds are my favorite empire type.

i don't like the flavor text for the judge dread referencing tradition that reduce crime : what if i want to roleplay a democratic liberal society ?

I get where you're coming from, but it is impracticle to design a flavor text for every combination of ethics and civics and even then you wouldn't cater to each person's individual RP idea for their empire. In cases like this, it is best to make your own narrative.

 

[Tyrax Lightning]

No more anomaly discovery chance? And in one feel swoop you made any discussion what to pick first redundant. There is no reason ever to pick anything other than expansion now. And no reason whatsoever to ever pick discovery.

With all due respect, some of us like blowing stuff up & wanna be able to get away with going Supremacy first & be allowed to be able to get away with it...

 

[TheDungen]

With all due respect, some of us like blowing stuff up & wanna be able to get away with going Supremacy first & be allowed to be able to get away with it...

So? what does that have to do with anomaly discovery chance? It's not like anomalies stop you fleets dead in their tracks. Ramp up the number of empires and supremacy becomes a lot stronger and even without this nerf discovery a lot weaker. We're not talking discovery back when you got free research points for it.

Ummm ... no. The anomaly research speed can get you valuable resources in the early game and +25% xp to leaders and 10% research speed is very strong.

As with most things, it will depend on your game settings, especially tradition/tech costs.

Sorry but differences in kind and differences in scale. Anomaly discovery chance was differences in kind of helped stuff happen made interesting stories now it's just differences in scale, jay slightly more of a certain number.
I don't know how good discovery as a starter was before but it was fun. Now it seems about as interesting as watching paint dry.

Also no the research speed is not really all that valuable once the anomalies are discovered they are around, you can always come back for them, but once a planet is surveyed no more chance for anomalies there. You only get one chance for an anomaly per planet and only the planet you manage to get to before the AI take them. Anomalies are a finite resource.
Also I almost always have a secondary science ship which I only use to research anomalies. How many I use for surveying depends on how many scientists with meticulous I can get my hand on.

And it's not so much this change along, I'm a bit afraid this is not at all a change done due to balance but to keep people from seeing all anomalies and thus increase the games replayability after each patch. If so I fear other source of anomaly discovery chance may also be removed. And that would really put a dampener on my enjoyal of the game.

 

[Tyrax Lightning]

So? what does that have to do with anomaly discovery chance? It's not like anomalies stop you fleets dead in their tracks. Ramp up the number of empires and supremacy becomes a lot stronger and even without this nerf discovery a lot weaker. We're not talking discovery back when you got free research points for it.

Some of us aren't in to following Metas... also when something is blatantly more powerful at a early time it can really feel like it gimps viable tactical choice, making one feel like ya can play how ya want, or play well, but not both... something i'm glad the Devs are rectifying. We should be able to play how we want & have it be able to be effective play at the same time. Us Fanatic Militarists wanna have as much fun as the 'Starfleet Wanna-be types'.

& if there's new problems in regards to Prosperity, hopefully it'll get addressed in time as well.

 

[TheDungen]

Some of us aren't in to following Metas... also when something is blatantly more powerful at a early time it can really feel like it gimps viable tactical choice, making one feel like ya can play how ya want, or play well, but not both... something i'm glad the Devs are rectifying. We should be able to play how we want & have it be able to be effective play at the same time. Us Fanatic Militarists wanna have as much fun as the 'Starfleet Wanna-be types'.

& if there's new problems in regards to Prosperity, hopefully it'll get addressed in time as well.

But they more or less removed the ability to play the starfleet wannabe now.
I get that they nerfed discovery way back when it was broken but recently it has been fairly well balanced, and discovery was an interesting but not overpowered choice. Now it's´'s neither interesting nor powerful (I would go so far as t o say it's uninteresting and weak).
It used to be a tradition group that excelled on large open maps, now it's only valuable trick is the opposite, to get you scientists assisting research when you run out of exploration. Discovery is about what happens when you run out of things to discover.

And quite frankly if you played on a dense map Discovery was never that powerful.

 

[sortulv]

No more anomaly discovery chance? And in one feel swoop you made any discussion what to pick first redundant. There is no reason ever to pick anything other than expansion now. And no reason whatsoever to ever pick discovery.

That might have been true with the earlier fast traditions, but I sense that the lower unity income will mean that you will be forced to think more about the traditions you want in the midgame than the ones you want in the early game as it is now...

 

[AlphaAsh]

It's still amusing to read that anyone thinks which tradition you take first, when playing vanilla, actually matters or makes a difference.

Carry on. I'm over here knowing that those little bonuses really mean squat in the overall scheme of things, even in plain ol' vanilla. I just need enough unity to get the ascension perk, thanks.

 

[TheDungen]

It's still amusing to read that anyone thinks which tradition you take first, when playing vanilla, actually matters or makes a difference.

Carry on. I'm over here knowing that those little bonuses really mean squat in the overall scheme of things, even in plain ol' vanilla. I just need enough unity to get the ascension perk, thanks.

To some extension I am beginning to feel this too, the only interesting thing with traditions, now that all interesting traditions have been nerfed away, is that you get ascension perks.

 

[Blurb]

The expansion tree still looks very awkward.

Firstly, administrative cap doesn't fit with the theme, depending on how "empire size" and the associated penalties work.
If the penalties are linear with the transgression (just like the majority of penalties in Stellaris), then administrative cap is more useful to a small empire than to a large empire.
I would therefore suggest that Courier Network (expansion) and Standard Construction Templates (prosperity) are swapped.
STC helps you to quickly develop planets, which seems to be exactly what the expansion tree is all about.
Inversely, Courier Network lets you get more out of the planets you already have - which seems to be the prosperity theme.

Secondly, the expansion tree has a lot of bonuses which become irrelevant relatively quickly.
An extra pop on a newly colonized planet, extra development speed and being able to quickly upgrade the main building is only relevant so far as the player is actively colonizing new planets.
However, my experience is that available planets quickly reach zero, and any new planets in my empire must be taken from xenos.
The same goes for starbase influence cost, which is only relevant when you're actively building starbases, which again is an activity that tapers off as unclaimed territory disappears.

I'd suggest that the expansion tree also embraces aggressive expansion to deal with the second issue
Bonuses that would fit with this theme (and stay relevant for a larger part of the game) include, but are not limited to:
- Reduced claim influence cost (we will take what is rightfully ours)
- Increased sublight speed (to make sure both civilian and military vessels can still cover your much larger empire)
- Increased effects of migration pull/push (meaning overpopulated worlds more quickly transfer their pops to new, less populated worlds)
- Reduced leader recruitment cost (what's the point of all this territory if there's no one to govern it?)

 

[James Fire]

It's still amusing to read that anyone thinks which tradition you take first, when playing vanilla, actually matters or makes a difference.

Carry on. I'm over here knowing that those little bonuses really mean squat in the overall scheme of things, even in plain ol' vanilla. I just need enough unity to get the ascension perk, thanks.

Given that they have different effects, yes, it does. Saying it doesn't is like saying what you eat doesn't matter.

 

[AlphaAsh]

Given that they have different effects, yes, it does. Saying it doesn't is like saying what you eat doesn't matter.

Nah. I see a difference.

(edit - Cake or pie is a much bigger deal than which tradition to take first.)

 

[James Fire]

Nah. I see a difference.

(edit - Cake or pie is a much bigger deal than which tradition to take first.)

CAKE! No, wait... CAKE.

 

[TheDungen]

CAKE! No, wait... CAKE.

Wasn't there an empire archetype in spore who were obsessed with cake?