Stellaris Dev Diary #132 - Ecumenopolis and Megastructures

[skytta]

No. But that doesn't mean that it can't happen. So I'll ask again.

Why does it being behind an AP mean it can't also have other limitations?

First I want to be explicit hear and mention that you didn't read of any limitation and arguing that there will be others that you "think" are planed but nobody else knows about.

Now I want to recap the limitation we know about:
1. Time and minerals plus one AP
2. Food and Consumergoods.
If I forgot one please alert me to it.

Now I like to scatter my concerns and know about the limitation that stops empires with the AP to uncontrollably spawning Ecumenopolis in the Galaxy.

 

[James Fire]

"think" are planed but nobody else knows about.

I'm gonna stop you right there. That is not what I am saying at all. You started by saying that it shouldn't be behind an AP, and have other limitations instead.

I'm asking why it can't have those limitations in addition to being an AP. That is all.

 

[FiddleSticks96]

In a earlier dev diary (the one about trade routes) it has been mentioned that pirates will be able to pillage trade routes. In continuity to that my question is: will normal empires be able to raid other empires trade routes? Example: I would raid the trade routes of my unfriendly neighbor.
If this is not a thing, I think that would be a nice functionality.

It would be cool if Barbaric Despoilers at least had more piratey options.

 

[skytta]

I'm gonna stop you right there. That is not what I am saying at all. You started by saying that it shouldn't be behind an AP, and have other limitations instead.

I'm asking why it can't have those limitations in addition to being an AP. That is all.

I didn't but there where no mentioned so what was your point. My point was to present a different approach to limit Ecumenopolis. Yours to argue and vaguely mention some limitation which is almost like no argument at all.

Please be more concrete.

Collosus are AP locked and they're more of a fit analogy for Ecumenopoli.

Yes but you are allowed to build only one. Would you be happy with this mechanic if you're only allowed to build one Ecumenopolis?

 

[Pointyearedgit]

Yes but you are allowed to build only one. Would you be happy with this mechanic if you're only allowed to build one Ecumenopolis?

Bad comparison, the reason the colossi is locked is the amazing CB you get from it. It's analogous to Interstellar Dominion or shared destiny in the early game.

 

[skytta]

I don't think you really need to worry about Ecumenopolis being as spammable as gaia worlds are, after all, a gaia world is simply an added bonus on top of a normal world, as a pure bonus it makes sense that you'd want as much as possible and that the more you make the easier it is to make more. Ecumenopolis on the other hand aren't a pure bonus. They'll have hundreds of pop and jobs and be a powerful piece of the economy of your empire, but have zero ability to make their own raw resources to supply all that population and those jobs. You'll need tons of agri worlds and mining worlds exporting their raw resources to the Ecumenopolis to keep it going, so you can't just turn every world into an Ecumenopolis otherwise you'll have no raw resource production... It's possible that an ecumenopolis might be able to turn enough of a profit on the galactic market to support itself, we'll have to see the exsact mechanics of how the market works before we'll know... But if that's possible for multiple ones without any supporting worlds of their own, I think we could safely say the market mechanics are completely broken.

I hope you are right but with hydroponics and other raw resources being possible scalable building (worker wise) I have fears regarding balancing.

 

[Cript]

It's a valid fear that the game won't be balanced, however ultimately it's an unassuageable fear. We already know what balancing factors will be put into place to make it so you can't spam Ecumenopolis, the devs have said that they are hard to upkeep having multiple onesbecause of these balancing factors. Fearing that the balancing factors won't be enough is reasonable but I'm not sure what possible conversation we can have until the expansion actually comes out and we can test for ourselves how the balancing factors work.

I guess we can at least point out that a majority of the buildings that used to scale jobs with pops no longer do, so it's highly unlikely that a hydroponics building will do much for an ecumenopolis. A dozen food isn't going to do more then dent the hundreds you'll need. Also the big resource shortage for an ecumenopolis is going to be minerals, and afaik so far we've not seen a building that can simply produce minerals for itself.

 

[VoodooDog]

to have Anti-Gravity Engineering as a prerequisite without actually having a tech tree and waiting for the lucky draw feels bad man :/

 

[Retry]

>Typical submarine generators use electrolysis, a process which requires water. A submarine, obviously, is surrounded by water, so it's not difficult for one to grab some to electrolyze, and more to desalinate. Both processes require energy input, of course (which a Nuclear submarine has no issues of doing).

So, how does it disproof what I said? As you stated yourself, oxygen can be generated from water. Also, there are other means, like deoxygenating other types of oxids, nuclear fission, ion-construction, etc etc etc. And the oxygen consumed can be regenerated.

>regenerators is an entirely different concept
Well, perhaps we are speaking about different regenerators. The regenerators I speak about are exactly the ones that produce air for consumption.

I wasn't disproving what you said, I was quite clearly backing it up.

The things that produce air for consumption (electrolyzers, deox-ers, NOT nuclear fission as O2 isn't a byproduct) would just be called "Generators". Again, regenerators are an entirely different thermodynamic concept. Regenerators take the heat of the fluid near the end of the machine's cycle (such as a power-producing turbine) and runs it near the cold fluid that's coming into the cycle. The cold fluid takes in some of that energy so the combuster doesn't need to input as much energy to heat the cold fluid to the desired temperature level, which means the combuster doesn't have to burn as much fuel to heat the fluid to the desired temperature level, which means higher fuel efficiency.

What you're talking about is just an air generator, taking some non-O2 stuff and turning it into different stuff + O2. An air "regenerator" doesn't exist.

 

[James Fire]

First things first, I do like the new Ecumenopolis and the idea behind it, but I don't think it should be an AP.

I didn't but there where no mentioned so what was your point. My point was to present a different approach to limit Ecumenopolis. Yours to argue and vaguely mention some limitation which is almost like no argument at all.

Please be more concrete.



Yes but you are allowed to build only one. Would you be happy with this mechanic if you're only allowed to build one Ecumenopolis?

Please don't lie. I've quoted where you said you think it shouldn't be an AP.

Now. Again. Why can't it have other limitations in addition to the AP? Simple question, that you have ignored 3 times now.

 

[Pointyearedgit]

to have Anti-Gravity Engineering as a prerequisite without actually having a tech tree and waiting for the lucky draw feels bad man :/

I suggest you read this, many experienced players already understand this, but stellaris *does* have a tech tree, the navigation and mechanics are just different.

View attachment 359512
Introduction

This guide is the result of reading too many "Is Technocracy worth it?" threads, playing and optimizing tall empires and dealing with personal frustrations about some Ascension Perks being locked behind technologies.

The guide contains quite a lot of text and it is assumed that the reader is going to use the information to adjust their own gameplay. By no means are the provided examples optimal for every empire.

FAQ

What is beelining? What are the benefits?
Beelining is following a dedicated research path in order to unlock a powerful technology. In Stellaris, one can benefit from this for quicker achievement of the following:

• unlocking pre-requisites for various Ascension Perks
  
• unlocking special options (terraforming, wormhole and gateway travel)
• unlocking and improving pop-related mechanics (robots, robo/bio-modding points, habitability)

In other words, players planning to make a highly specialized empire can benefit a lot from beelining.

But Stellaris uses tech card system, how is this possible?
The basic principle is actually the same as in the other games - do not research "undesired" technologies. Of course, some additional Stellaris-specific rules apply.

Can I beeline to anything I want?
This method works best for up to mid-game technologies (technology tier 3, or tier 4 without too many pre-requisites). Anything higher will require a lot of researching anyway, so don't expect unlocking Mega-Engineering after 20 years in-game.

Basics

The card system and research alternatives
Stellaris uses technology card system - that means that each time a technology is researched, a player is given a choice to research one of the N available technologies. N is the number of research alternatives and most empires will start with three.

Increasing the number of research alternatives allows for better control of what can be avoided.

Cost and weight
Each technology has cost and weight values.

The higher the cost, the longer it takes to research that technology.

Weight value represents the relative chance to be selected as a research option. The higher the weight, the more chance the technology will appear. Additionally, if a technology appeared as a research option, on the next selection its weight will be halved.

Example: Dandy has just started a new game and has Planetary Unification, Heritage Sites and Genome Mapping as research options for society. He picks Planetary Unification as his first society technology to research. Once the research is finished, Heritage Sites and Genome Mapping will most probably not appear among the next research options, because their weights are halved. However, once Dandy finishes researching his second society technology (let's say, Biodiversity Studies), Heritage Sites and Genome Mapping will have their weights returned to normal.

The weight halving is an important mechanic which allows to avoid roughly twice as many technologies as seems possible at first glance.

Tiers and areas
All technologies are divided into five tiers and three (physics, society, engineering) areas.

Technologies from higher tiers will only appear after a certain amount of lower tier technologies have been researched. By default, this amount is six.

Technologies from different areas can be researched simultaneously. The tier requirements are calculated per area!

Example: Gene wants to research a tier 3 physics technology. First, he'll need to research 6 tier 1 physics technologies. After he researches them, tier 2 physics technologies will start to appear. He researches 6 tier 2 physics technologies and now he is eligible to get tier 3 physics technologies among his research options.

It is important not to forget which tier the technology being beelined is - it will never show up if too many lower tier technologies are being avoided!

Pre-requisites
A lot of technologies have pre-requisites, which must be met in addition to tier requirements before a technology will appear as a research option. Most of the time these are just other technologies, but some of them are locked behind different ethos/civics. In some cases, the pre-requisite can be a technology from another area.

Example: Spike wants to research Droids, a tier 2 engineering technology. He has researched 6 tier 1 engineering technologies, but the Droids card won't pop up. He checks pre-requisites and notices that he has not researched Colonial Centralization from society, which is a requirement for Droids.

Example: Scarlett wants to research Droids as well. She knows the pre-requisites but one of them - Robotic Workers - doesn't even show up as an option despite this being a tier 1 technology! She checks further and notices that Robotic Workers is unavailable for machine empires - and she plays as one.

All pre-requisites of the technology to be beelined should be taken into account when planning the research path.

Reverse engineering and anomalies
There is an exception to every rule, and reverse engineering is one for tiers, pre-requisites, and weight halving. Some technologies can be obtained (or even fully researched) as an option by examining debris left from battles, other can appear from anomalies or events. Some technologies can be obtained only from reverse-engineering/anomalies/events. Most of these are weapons and ship component, with some exceptions.

One cannot expect to always get a particular technology this way, but once unlocked, it will appear as a yet additional research option on every draw.

Fields, rare technologies and influencing weights
In addition to being divided into areas, each technology has a field. Most of the technologies' weights may be increased by 25% by appointing a scientist with the matching field speciality (research speed increases a bit as well).

Some of the technologies are rare (indicated by a violet outline in-game), which means that in most cases their base weight is halved. This should be taken in consideration if pursuing a rare technology - appointing a scientist with a matching field speciality would be very beneficial.

There might be some additional conditions which affect weights of some technologies.

Where to look for information
How did Gene, Spike and Scarlett know about the tier and the pre-requisites of a given technology? Gene used the technology tree visualizer, Spike consulted wiki and Scarlett looked in the game files (/Stellaris/common/technology/).

 

[Broken Calculator]

Given that unity boosts from traditions are being removed and civics like Agrarian Idyll are being reworked to give housing/amenities boosts rather than unity it seems like Stellaris is going in the opposite direction. It will be harder to accrue unity and take longer to unlock traditions and perks. Now by the late game an empire can easily unlock everything, but if unity is much harder then empires will have to be more selective. I hope perks get a balance pass to make sure that some aren't must/never picks. Galactic wonders might not be too bad, at least for wide players that will probably prefer a perk that boosts military power than unlocking long term investments for flat resource bonuses.

Well, I approve your opinions. What I want to say is that I don't understand why they always add important content into ascension perks. No offend, I don't mean that ascension perk shouldn't be important. But couldn't ascension perk be more balanced and selective like ascension paths? If you don't breach the shroud, you can still try to become robots. They are basically identical aternatives and I can have my mid-game. I don't like how they dismantle late-game and force me to make a choice. For example, you will never be able to make planetary destruction if you didn't chose colossus. There is no identical alternative for that. And trying to build balance between totally different perks (like megastructrue and colossus) is not so easy.

 

[Dedzone]

Question directed @Wiz..

First off, I absolutely love everything you guys are doing with this game, and you will def. be getting my money for the the DLC. One thing though has lingered as a giant issue in the game, and that is the AI. There is just no rhyme or reason to the AI, and to me anyways, just does not seem to give that much a thrill to the game. Are there any plans to really upgrade the AI and actually make them a challenge in the turn-to-turn game, other than the bonuses they get when the settings are turned harder?

 

[VoodooDog]

Mega Art Installation srsly?
god thats just so weak
"we need to find something to boost every stat possible"
pls guys, u dont have to create a boost building for everything

I suggest you read this, many experienced players already understand this, but stellaris *does* have a tech tree, the navigation and mechanics are just different.

i know that, but surfing on third party websides in order to increase the chance of a lucky draw doesnt make it better you know.

 

[skytta]

Please don't lie. I've quoted where you said you think it shouldn't be an AP.

Now. Again. Why can't it have other limitations in addition to the AP? Simple question, that you have ignored 3 times now.

Sure lock it behind an AP and a ton other restrictions. In stellaris has no other Word type changing AP additional restrictions, to my knowledge, but they can do it.

But why should they if the Cap alone can accomplish the same without the AP. And every empire can build at least one. That was one of the intentions of my first post, if I remember correctly.

 

[James Fire]

But why should they if the Cap alone can accomplish the same without the AP.

Because it can't. Nothing limits things the way the AP does.

And every empire can build at least one.

Should everyone be able to build one, as part of a normal game? I would say no.

 

[skytta]

Because it can't. Nothing limits things the way the AP does.

AP are really bad at limiting specific kinds of Abilities and have the tendency to be used often if unlocked. That's the reason mega structures have a limit of one per Empire.

 

[James Fire]

AP are really bad at limiting specific kinds of Abilities and have the tendency to be used often if unlocked.

Yeah, but nothing limits like an AP does. And in the case of ecumenopolis, you need a large amount of raw resources to maintain it. Food, Minerals, Consumer goods and energy. All those need to be made off-world, and I highly doubt it will all be able to be made on one. We can safely assume that you would need at least one dedicated world of each of those four to maintain the ecomenopolis and its supporting planets. That is a maximum of 1 ecumenopolis for every 5 planets in your empire, assuming that it is indeed that efficient.

Your fears are ungrounded, at least until we can play the patch and see how it works out.

That's the reason mega structures have a limit of one per Empire.

Hey look, something in addition to the AP.

 

[VaderYodaFett]

Yes, machine worlds have new mechanics in 2.2. Hive Minds may get some sort of hive world, not yet decided.

Is there going to be some tab to be able to find my mega structures more easily? Sometimes my empire is covering so much space that I lose track of where I started building a specific mega structure with everything else that is going on in the game. Currently I have to go from system to system until i find it. It just seems like there could be some sort of tab where I can jump to the structure or just schedule further construction straight from the tab. If something like that already exists, where do I find it?

 

[TheDarkMaster]

Is there going to be some tab to be able to find my mega structures more easily? Sometimes my empire is covering so much space that I lose track of where I started building a specific mega structure with everything else that is going on in the game. Currently I have to go from system to system until i find it. It just seems like there could be some sort of tab where I can jump to the structure or just schedule further construction straight from the tab. If something like that already exists, where do I find it?

There should at least be special icons on systems that have megastructures in them on the galaxy map. That isn't the best way to find them, but at least it should be easier than checking each system one by one.