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Stellaris Dev Diary #15 - Fallen Empires

Hello and happy new year! I’ll be your substitute Doomdark for today and in this week’s dev diary we’ll take a closer look at Fallen Empires.

The galaxy is vast, old and unknown. New species constantly flare into existence and some are even able to take their first cautious steps towards other stars. Of those that do some are arrogant enough to assume that they are the first and only chosen. They fail to realize that others may have taken those same steps before them, others who have found amazing wonders and unraveled their secrets, others who reached the furthest edges of knowledge only to crumble away. Those others are called Fallen Empires.

These are once-glorious empires that for unknown reasons have stagnated and often fallen to infighting or crippling apathy. That which once covered hundreds of systems have shrunk to a fraction, barely held on to by superior technology and what little remains of a once glorious fleet. Fallen Empires are isolationist and will look at newer species with disinterest or outright contempt. Diplomatic attempts are futile and they will most likely attack any unknown ships entering one of their remaining systems.

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The response of Fallen Empires vary greatly when approached. It is rarely friendly though.

Design Reasoning

We’ve added Fallen Empires to the game for a couple of reasons. They have the potential to enable some really cool stories and there is a bunch of different directions we can take to ensure players get a different experience from game to game. Players should never feel confident in how a Fallen Empire may react to different events in the galaxy. If left alone they might resurge as a reaction to a galaxy-wide threat or become outraged when their most holy planets are colonized by lesser races.

Gameplay-wise the Fallen Empires can act as a potential source of advanced technology for players willing to invest the military forces required to defeat one of their fleets in battle. In Stellaris, all ships destroyed in combat will leave debris behind and through reverse engineering a player may discover the technologies required to build the weapons and components equipped by those ships. Players can also invade planets belonging to Fallen Empires, allowing them to utilize whatever advanced buildings placed there. This of course means dealing with a new species within the Empire.
While the rewards may be tempting, players may want to consider the risks before attacking a Fallen Empire. Who knows what horrors they have unearthed during the ages, what forbidden secrets their planets hold within, what captives might be unleashed should their wardens be struck down.

stellaris_dev_diary_14_02_20160104_fallen_empire.jpg

Fallen Empires will use a separate series of models for their ships and stations.

Next week the good Goosecreature will be back with a dev diary on the events and mishaps that may befall colonies and their inhabitants. Until then!
 
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I believe there's good odds of there being significantly relevant gameplay differences between the species, based on how CK2 religions, governments, and cultures worked.

That's not to assure other people, however, that's up to them to decide about.

The Art of Propaganda is a skill, and it is also probably a game. But it's closed to the public. Very inner circle stuff.
 
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For those that like space opera, Babylon 5 and Legend of the Galactic Heroes are like their own individual sub cultures and cults. Focus on cults tho.

Definitely. I've never been able to get into Babylon 5, but all of the things I don't like about it are present and worse in Sliders, which I love.
 
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="Safehold, post: 20458247, member: 336573"For those that like space opera, Babylon 5 and Legend of the Galactic Heroes are like their own individual sub cultures and cults. Focus on cults tho.

Definitely. I've never been able to get into Babylon 5, but all of the things I don't like about it are present and worse in Sliders, which I love.

I think I started the B5 arc around the civil war era, so the last season finales were really good, but I didn't see the entire series from start to finish. Couldn't really catch all the episodes on time since tv channels like to scramble them.

Generally themes like post humanity, stellar construction, ascendancy of physical species, time travel, and life and death drama in a war (the Japanese kind) were things I was looking for without knowing the names of. Separate sub species of humanity that were psionically powerful, was also sci fi, but didn't interest me at the time.

Depending on which season in B5, that stuff isn't very evenly distributed. Some seasons tended to be more interesting to me than the other ones, but it is amazing how the story even made sense over time given I watched it in fragmented order.

That first or so B5 movie about the Earth - Minbari war, though, that was pretty good. Like a Western version of the Japanese created MLA or Spaceship Yamato stuff.
 
I think I started the B5 arc around the civil war era, so the last season finales were really good, but I didn't see the entire series from start to finish. Couldn't really catch all the episodes on time since tv channels like to scramble them.
You should marathon it someday; S2 and S3 were by far the best parts of B5.
 
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Good idea, definitely part of the queue.
Just stop before the last season, which was utter dreck ("well, it's taken a few years and a major schedule change, but we wrapped up our story line" "congratulations! we've just changed our mind and given you another season" "well, guess it's time to throw some random stuff together in the next couple months").
 
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These statements can not be characterized as "optimistic" but rather pessimistic. Especially when you label what the developers have told us about the game, "propaganda".

This is not a conspiracy to "deceive the masses" here. It is however, game designers explaining their vision and explaining how it will work. To extrapolate that they are designing a mechanic that is weak, and then deceiving the public about it is just as pessimistic as can be...if not something worse. When you mentioned only one variable and insinuate that it will be the only difference we might see in the game, I call that "negative propaganda".

Disinterested parties would almost certainly classify it all as public relations or marketing, which are newer words for propaganda.

Google defines propaganda as - information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.

While I don't think PDS is misleading, most official and fan activity on this board certainly meet the rest of that criteria. You attacking me for simply doubting 100% accuracy of all claims and assumptions on this board (not just PDS) makes it seem even more so.

I think this game will be great fun. That would classify me as an optimistic to most, given it is mostly faith based. I'm skeptical of some of the claims I see on this board (especially from fans), since I think fans sometimes delude themselves about how meaningful or deep feature x will feel in game. The combination of the two does not make me a pessimist.
 
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Well, one way the fans hope that developers have achieved this is that they implemented this multi-layered, procedurally-generated race mechanic, such that through numerous play-throughs, the player will encounter what seems to be a familiar species....only to discover their not the same this time around.

Quite alien indeed.
Fixed that for you.
 
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Disinterested parties would almost certainly classify it all as public relations or marketing, which are newer words for propaganda.

Google defines propaganda as - information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.

While I don't think PDS is misleading, most official and fan activity on this board certainly meet the rest of that criteria. You attacking me for simply doubting 100% accuracy of all claims and assumptions on this board (not just PDS) makes it seem even more so.

I think this game will be great fun. That would classify me as an optimistic to most, given it is mostly faith based. I'm skeptical of some of the claims I see on this board (especially from fans), since I think fans sometimes delude themselves about how meaningful or deep feature x will feel in game. The combination of the two does not make me a pessimist.

No. It was you who attacked my post, then you classified my assessment of this game as "propaganda". You brought that word into this debate, and now you drag out a google definition. Then backtrack on said definition to say that Paradox is not "misleading". Yet you insinuate that the rest of the posters on this site are "misleading". As if you are above it all. That certainly sounds delusional. In fact, here's a question: What benefit would I have in misleading people about Paradox and Stellaris? Have I any money to gain here?

Also...you said "official and fan activity" - can you clarify what constitutes "official" if it is not Paradox?
 
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That certainly sounds delusional. In fact, here's a question: What benefit would I have in misleading people about Paradox and Stellaris? Have I any money to gain here?

Also...you said "official and fan activity" - can you clarify what constitutes "official" if it is not Paradox?

In my post immediately above yours you'll see the 3 words that resolve the source of this contention. In short, some fans here post with an assumed certainty on topics they couldn't possibly know until the game is released. I disagreed with your certainty and you treat me as a heretic for it.

Marketing = public relations = propaganda. Propaganda isn't inherently evil or lies (let's not invoke Godwin's Law!), but it is undertaken with a motivation that might bias it.

Official = developer statements. I won't get into why any game company would distribute information in a way that promotes a particular point of view, because its obvious. Paradox is a good developer, but that doesn't mean they are perfect at keeping hype reasonable. They (and most) developers do not step in constantly to say "no, some fans are really overstating the depth of this feature" because it would be an enormous chore and reduce hype.

Fan activity motivations. Monetary gains are far from the only motivation that fans have to over-hype or -defend a product they've never experienced themselves. The list of other reasons is enormous, including simple stubbornness; there are endless examples. I think anyone that has spent more that 5 minutes on the internet is aware that a poster saying "I have no monetary interests" ≠ impartial, accurate, nuanced. Game discussion is no exception.
 
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So paradox has become as manipulative, lying and misleading as Ubisoft, EA, and Konomi among a few of the more unscruplious companies?
No. No one ever suggested as much, and it isn't helpful to the discussion to take it to the extremes. It isn't "other developers = evil" versus "Paradox = good".

Keeping this on topic: Do you disagree with the edit I made in this post?
 
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Can I just say that I really hope that you can be duped into thinking that you've successfully defeated a Fallen Empire, they spread around your planets and trigger an uprising with their generally superior... everything.
Basically, they play possum and then they kill.
 
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opinion
In my post immediately above yours you'll see the 3 words that resolve the source of this contention. In short, some fans here post with an assumed certainty on topics they couldn't possibly know until the game is released. I disagreed with your certainty and you treat me as a heretic for it.

Marketing = public relations = propaganda. Propaganda isn't inherently evil or lies (let's not invoke Godwin's Law!), but it is undertaken with a motivation that might bias it.

Official = developer statements. I won't get into why any game company would distribute information in a way that promotes a particular point of view, because its obvious. Paradox is a good developer, but that doesn't mean they are perfect at keeping hype reasonable. They (and most) developers do not step in constantly to say "no, some fans are really overstating the depth of this feature" because it would be an enormous chore and reduce hype.

Fan activity motivations. Monetary gains are far from the only motivation that fans have to over-hype or -defend a product they've never experienced themselves. The list of other reasons is enormous, including simple stubbornness; there are endless examples. I think anyone that has spent more that 5 minutes on the internet is aware that a poster saying "I have no monetary interests" ≠ impartial, accurate, nuanced. Game discussion is no exception.


No it does not resolve anything. I don't need you editing what I write. You state your opinion and I'll state mine. I responded to this statement: "Personally I wouldn't mind if they kept some things unplayable to keep them truly 'alien' " - by someone other than you.

It also is correct that the developers achieved this by implementing the system they have. One cannot play what is randomly, procedurally generated, with multiple - not one, as you suggested - variables.

This is how the developers have stated it will work. If you doubt them, fine.
 
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I think I started the B5 arc around the civil war era, so the last season finales were really good, but I didn't see the entire series from start to finish. Couldn't really catch all the episodes on time since tv channels like to scramble them.

Generally themes like post humanity, stellar construction, ascendancy of physical species, time travel, and life and death drama in a war (the Japanese kind) were things I was looking for without knowing the names of. Separate sub species of humanity that were psionically powerful, was also sci fi, but didn't interest me at the time.

Depending on which season in B5, that stuff isn't very evenly distributed. Some seasons tended to be more interesting to me than the other ones, but it is amazing how the story even made sense over time given I watched it in fragmented order.

That first or so B5 movie about the Earth - Minbari war, though, that was pretty good. Like a Western version of the Japanese created MLA or Spaceship Yamato stuff.
I love B5. Season 1 and 5 are definitely the weaker seasons; if you cut pretty much all of the telepath stuff from season 5, it gets considerably better.

Season 1 is mostly world building and finding their feet. While every episode in the first few seasons has something that relates to the later parts, much of the stuff in the first half of Season 1 is generally pretty minor and could have been done better. The Soulhunter episode I personally think was one of the worst, and was primarily there just to inform the audience about the Minbari's belief system, which ties into the Earth-Minbari war and why they suddenly surrendered. But you get the exact same information in a much neater package from the Earth-Minibar war movie, and pretty much every other time that information is necessary for the viewer to know.

Starting from episode 13 (Signs and Portents) is probably a good idea if you want to skip most of the lesser episodes of Season 1; you'll catch pretty much every semi-majorish things, but will miss a few good character setting and development episodes. Any episode that focus on G'kar and Londo a decent amount are good to watch (Midnight in the Firing Line, The Parliament of Dreams, By Any Means Necessary). Those two are definitely highlights of the entire series, there's no segment with them in that isn't great. Alternatively, you can just watch the last 5 episodes of Season 1, starting with Voice in the Wilderness Part 1.
 
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I love B5. Season 1 and 5 are definitely the weaker seasons; if you cut pretty much all of the telepath stuff from season 5, it gets considerably better.

Season 1 is mostly world building and finding their feet. While every episode in the first few seasons has something that relates to the later parts, much of the stuff in the first half of Season 1 is generally pretty minor and could have been done better. The Soulhunter episode I personally think was one of the worst, and was primarily there just to inform the audience about the Minbari's belief system, which ties into the Earth-Minbari war and why they suddenly surrendered. But you get the exact same information in a much neater package from the Earth-Minibar war movie, and pretty much every other time that information is necessary for the viewer to know.

Starting from episode 13 (Signs and Portents) is probably a good idea if you want to skip most of the lesser episodes of Season 1; you'll catch pretty much every semi-majorish things, but will miss a few good character setting and development episodes. Any episode that focus on G'kar and Londo a decent amount are good to watch (Midnight in the Firing Line, The Parliament of Dreams, By Any Means Necessary). Those two are definitely highlights of the entire series, there's no segment with them in that isn't great. Alternatively, you can just watch the last 5 episodes of Season 1, starting with Voice in the Wilderness Part 1.
My favourite episode from season one is probably that one where Sinclair relives his memories of the battle of the Line, it was fantastic. The only things i would say to skip would be The Gathering, as you can just leave it and wont really miss anything, and i guess you could skip parts of the first season, but i would say watch it all.

Oh, if i play as humans in Stellaris, i could create the Earth Alliance, that would be interesting.
 
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Well, one way the developers have achieved this is that they implemented this multi-layered, procedurally-generated race mechanic, such that through numerous play-throughs, the player will encounter what seems to be a familiar species....only to discover their not the same this time around.

Quite alien indeed.

But we can recreate those races. I want some truly alien races that 'break' some rules that the human player has to follow to create an unique experience.
Something that makes you scratch your head and go WTF!
 
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My favourite episode from season one is probably that one where Sinclair relives his memories of the battle of the Line, it was fantastic. The only things i would say to skip would be The Gathering, as you can just leave it and wont really miss anything, and i guess you could skip parts of the first season, but i would say watch it all.

Oh, if i play as humans in Stellaris, i could create the Earth Alliance, that would be interesting.
Agreed, And the Sky is full of Stars is a good episode. Provides a great insight into the events of the Battle of the Line, and EarthForce's concerns about Sinclair. The Gathering I always think of as a separate movie, since that's how it's usually played and it was released a full year before Season 1 started. It's definitely skippable, everything except that Narns are strangely lacking in telepaths, something that they'd like to remedy, is reiterated pretty much immediately in Season 1.

Soul Hunter is the only episode I'd personally consistently skip. I always thought it was one of the weaker episodes, but a large part of why I typically skip it is because pretty much every week, my sister would start 'rewatching' B5. I swear she probably watched all 110 episodes worth, but at least 90 of them were Soul Hunter...
 
Agreed, And the Sky is full of Stars is a good episode. Provides a great insight into the events of the Battle of the Line, and EarthForce's concerns about Sinclair. The Gathering I always think of as a separate movie, since that's how it's usually played and it was released a full year before Season 1 started. It's definitely skippable, everything except that Narns are strangely lacking in telepaths, something that they'd like to remedy, is reiterated pretty much immediately in Season 1.

Soul Hunter is the only episode I'd personally consistently skip. I always thought it was one of the weaker episodes, but a large part of why I typically skip it is because pretty much every week, my sister would start 'rewatching' B5. I swear she probably watched all 110 episodes worth, but at least 90 of them were Soul Hunter...
Yeah soul Hunter is a bit of a drag, i think season one definitely had some of the weakest in the show overall. Though i usually dont skip it, there are only like three episodes in the entire show i would skip and i cant remember them that well.
 
I want some truly alien races that 'break' some rules that the human player has to follow to create an unique experience.
Something that makes you scratch your head and go WTF!

That would probably be the FTL system.

Strangely enough, Legends of the Galactic Heroes is a 130+ episode anime series, but I've only heard a Paradox dev or staff member mention it, and maybe 1 or 2 others here, not sure.

Until Firefly came out, I don't think there was another Western sci fi universe crafted like LOGH was. Well the characters were always massaged and came out differently, but the world felt similar.

Star Wars and Star Trek were of course, very different universes with different moral or tech precepts. Political, religious, philosophical precepts, I'll add that in as well for differences.

It's definitely skippable, everything except that Narns are strangely lacking in telepaths, something that they'd like to remedy, is reiterated pretty much immediately in Season 1.

Talk about a primitive society there. In our Age of the Internet, humanity would have just farmed that stuff out to those who were good at it. Like the way Kickstarter allows companies to find demographics that will fund their game. That the Narns might wish to change themselves instead of changing the world though, that I do approve of.

It also is correct that the developers achieved this by implementing the system they have.
Do you disagree with the edit I made

The funny thing is, I'm pretty sure AK and Kreiss both clicked the "agree" button for my post there.

I believe there's good odds of there being significantly relevant gameplay differences between the species, based on how CK2 religions, governments, and cultures worked.

When I checked the ratings I got. There's probably some kind of misunderstanding going on, but I don't want to put on my analysis hat and crunch the words in the data yet.
 
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