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Stellaris Dev Diary #153 - Empire Sprawl & Administrative Capacity

Hello everyone!
We’re back with yet another dev diary to showcase some more fruits of summer experimentation. As with the previous dev diary, this involved a lot of work carried out during the summer and involves something I’ve wanted to explore for a good while now.

Today we’ll be talking about empire sprawl and administrative capacity. Do note that these changes are still fairly young in their development, so numbers and implementation details may not be representative of what it will look like in the end.

As a background, I can mention that I have a grander idea of where I want to take these mechanics, but it will not all happen at once. These changes aim to mimic state bureaucracy or overhead created by managing a large empire. As a minor aspect I also wanted you to be able to experience the funny absurdity of having a planet entirely dedicated to bureaucracy. The movie Brazil is a great source of inspiration here :)

Empire Sprawl
We wanted to expand on how empire sprawl is used, so that it becomes a more interesting mechanic. The largest change means that pops now increase empire sprawl. Most things in your empire should be increasing empire sprawl to various degrees, to represent the administrative burden they impose.

upload_2019-8-29_10-40-35.png

Empire Sprawl can now be modified from its different sources, and as an example, the Courier Networks expansion tradition will now reduce empire sprawl caused directly by the number of planets and systems. As another example shows, the Harmony traditions finisher now reduces the total empire sprawl caused by all your pops.

We are also able to modify how much empire sprawl each pop contributes, and we’ve added a couple of new species traits that affect it. There are also machine variants of these traits.

upload_2019-8-29_10-41-13.png

We have also increased the penalty for the amount of empire sprawl that exceeds your administrative capacity. The goal is not to make administrative a hard cap, but we want to make it necessary to invest some of your resources into increasing your administrative capacity. More on that later.

upload_2019-8-29_10-41-49.png

The current plan is for machine empires to be more reliant on keeping their administrative capacity in line with their empire sprawl, so machine empires will suffer a much harsher penalty for exceeding their cap. We want machines to feel “centralized” and to perhaps favor a more “tall” playstyle.

upload_2019-8-29_10-42-12.png

Hive Minds, on the other hand, should be more tolerant of a sprawling empire where unmanaged drones are able to fall back on their instincts whenever they cannot maintain a responsive connection to the hive mind. Therefore, hive minds should be more tolerant of a “wide” playstyle.

Administrative Capacity
With all these changes to empire sprawl, what about administrative capacity, I imagine you asking? Well, since empire sprawl is becoming an expanded concept, administrative capacity will naturally be a part of that. Increasing your administrative capacity will now be a part of planning your empire’s economy.

upload_2019-8-29_10-42-48.png

For regular empires, the bureaucrat is a new job that increases your administrative capacity at the cost of consumer goods. This is also a specialist job, and has needs accordingly. Administrators are unchanged, and do not currently affect administrative capacity or bureaucrats.

For machine empires, the coordinators have changed roles from producing unity to now increasing administrative capacity instead, and they are more effective than bureaucrats. A new job called Evaluators now produce unity for machine empires.

Hive Minds currently have the hardest time to produce administrative capacity, but it has been added as a function of the synapse drone job.

upload_2019-8-29_10-43-26.png


Certain sources that previously increased administrative capacity by a static amount now increase is by a percentage amount instead. This doesn’t affect the output of the jobs, but rather increases the total administrative capacity directly.

Summary
Personally I’m very excited for these changes and I’m very much looking forward to taking it to its next step in the future. I hope you enjoyed reading about the changes that will come to Stellaris sometime later this year. As always, we’ll be interested to hear your thoughts.

As mentioned in last week’s dev diary, the schedule for dev diaries will now be bi-weekly, so the next dev diary will be in another 2 weeks.
 
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Why build an admin cap building, if you can have a lab instead? The building takes a slot and is totally unexciting as it produces nothing. I'll just go back to ignoring the cap and it will be fine.

Also making the ME just worse at expanding is not exactly a fun way of curtaining them.
Did you miss the part where they said admin cap penalties will be changed? You might not be able to ignore it.

But I agree, the machine change is just... what were they thinking?!
 
Did you miss the part where they said admin cap penalties will be changed? You might not be able to ignore it.
Maybe, but it probably won't cost anything you can't produce and for mid/late-game empire it might not be much of a difference in efficiency. Looking at how I already don't min-max many things, it might turn out I won't build them ever, if they cost me something I can make in another building.
 
Maybe, but it probably won't cost anything you can't produce and for mid/late-game empire it might not be much of a difference in efficiency.
Or it might be a significant decrease. We'll have to see how it is if, god forbid, they actually implement this.
 
>Hive Mind
>Cannot follow Psionic path
maxresdefault.jpg


I allways feel weird you are locked into a single path.. sure going two ways could be weird and OP.. yet, one could grab the first level of the other ones - a geneticly enhanced race that further improoves itself with cybernetics.. or psionics (eldar?).. or a hivemind whose drones start manifesting some psionics (overlords and queens / lichtors and hive tyrants).. or psionics that seeks a little boost to their frail forms using genetics..
Mayhaps in a future one could get 3 perks: two from one path, one from another.. all three starters.. or mayhaps there could be a third one on the ascention path, adding something unique (you can terraform a planet to your liking, hive, machine, coruscant; you can build gates and wonders that blot out the sun or drain matter from a black hole..) . . . one option could give a project to have better ship bases (better aim for machines, basic shield stat for psy, regen for hives) and maybe new ship models (hint: a dlc pack I would buy).
 
My concern is that after you reach a certain level of development, there will be no practical reason NOT to build a building that allows pops to add to Admin Cap. Not if you are at all interested in Science (and who isn't, in the end?) It will be as much of a no-brainer as building a Robot Factory as soon as you're able.

It sounds like they are changing the penalties, but working with them as-is for the moment -- each pip over the admin cap is 0.3% increased Tech, 0.5% increased Unity, +1% increased Leader Upkeep (ignore recruitment, edict cost for the time being).

If you are making 500 of each science and 300 Unity a month (which most folks are doing by 50-75 years in), a pop that gives +2 to Admin Cap (e.g., see AlphaMod) is (at the Cap edge) worth basically 3 of each Science, 3 Unity, and, say you've got 10 Leaders at that point, upkeep is 6 energy a turn, right? So, 2% of 60, or 1.2 energy.

That's not Specialist-level, necessarily, but it's getting there, and it's a helluva Worker, even if that's all they do. If they give other bumps, then we're in no-brainer territory, if we're not already there for workers.

Now move to where you're making 2000 of each science, which a lot of folks are hitting 100-125 years in. Each of these +admin pops is now worth (at the border of admin cap) +12 of each Science, probably around 12 Unity, and a little bit more energy. They're even better than a very happy Researcher specialist with a pile of Empire and Trait bonuses.

Admittedly, some of this is speculation -- but if the system is such that Admin Cap pops/buildings are even vaguely worth it in 2250, by 2350, they will be mega-no-brainers; a pop with an admin-cap-increase job will eventually be a degree of magnitude better than any Researcher or Culture Worker -- or more.

Is this a disaster for the game? Of course not! We complain about robots being necessary for powergaming, but we all quite happily build them and have fun. And I think that playing Wide should have more Cap penalties (and I say this as someone who tends to play wide), so I welcome the Admin Cap tweaking. I'm just skeptical that adding admin-cap pops/buildings is going to lead to interesting choices.

(It could, though, I suppose, if Wide empires are doomed to be either above, or way above, the Admin Cap, in which case the benefits per-decrease drop. Still will be a no-brainer by 2350, though.)
 
They were thinking they'd continue their established design goal that Machine Intelligenge empires are good at being tall.
Their 'established design goal' was that megacorps are the ones that go tall, and machines are 'efficient at resource refinement'. But I guess that's all out the window.
 
They were thinking they'd continue their established design goal that Machine Intelligenge empires are good at being tall.
This isn't rocket science, folks. Unless they greatly increase the upkeep of Machine pops, or decrease construction speed, Machines are just going to be better because they can settle anywhere from the beginning of the game. I'm willing to accept Admin Cap as the way to help institute it.
 
Their 'established design goal' was that megacorps are the ones that go tall, and machines are 'efficient at resource refinement'. But I guess that's all out the window.
Machine Intelligences have been meant to be good at being "tall" since before Megacorps got their overhaul and unique mechanics. That's why they have things like a bonus to Mining Station output- better utilization of available space is a core tenant of a "tall" build.

I'm not sure why you're so unable to grasp this, or that both Machine Intelligences AND Megacorps can be designed for "tall" play.

Seriously. Go back, re-read the older Dev Diaries. This is all public record.
 
I like the changes towards hive minds being encourage to blob (and ignore empire sprawl to a degree, and instead try to passively accumulate it via maintenance drones), and robots being very harshly punished for blobbing and encouraged to centralize. That said, I think the mechanics for the sprawl amount need heavy tweaking, specifically in regards to pops creating empire sprawl.

As it stands, the point of habitats and ring worlds is that they're meant to be more efficient per point of sprawl than a planet, because they have districts that are 1.5 to 10(?) times more productive than a normal planet. The same with ecumenopolis'. By adding in pops to the cost you're directly nerfing the value that these options had to try and keep a centralized state (and habitats already have their issues if you want to continue to grow your economy through them rather than the much more efficient blobbing). You'd either have to somehow compensate to these planet types (reduced sprawl effect on their custom colony types perhaps?), or dramatically increase the sprawl penalty for systems and extra colonies, or just not care and shift the meta further towards blobbing than it currently stands when it seemed a direction of Megacorp onwards was trying to make tall more interesting and viable.

It also feels odd that Administrators or other leader types can't create administration capacity, especially as it feels like a system Byzantine Beuracracy can tie into. Do capital buildings produce some base bureaucrats, or are they entirely a secondary system - trading the unity and research penalties of Empire sprawl for the opportunity cost of those jobs and consumer goods to produce a bureaucrat?

Also another thing that I have missed since the sprawl changes is dense systems. Back when your core sector was based off of the number of colonized systems it could have, there was a lot of advantage in building up within a single system, encouraging you to place habitats in systems with colonies, and multi-colony systems like Trappist were a lot more interesting because of it. Now its just your raw amount of systems and a rough range for sectors (which are mostly only important for governors), could there be some sort of a system in place to encourage these dense systems or hubs of systems beyond the comparatively tiny penalty of 1 empire sprawl for the system it would have been otherwise?
 
As it stands, the point of habitats and ring worlds is that they're meant to be more efficient per point of sprawl than a planet, because they have districts that are 1.5 to 10(?) times more productive than a normal planet. The same with ecumenopolis'. By adding in pops to the cost you're directly nerfing the value that these options had to try and keep a centralized state (and habitats already have their issues if you want to continue to grow your economy through them rather than the much more efficient blobbing). You'd either have to somehow compensate to these planet types (reduced sprawl effect on their custom colony types perhaps?), or dramatically increase the sprawl penalty for systems and extra colonies...

I strongly suspect that they'll address this. I can't see them changing these two to help avoid sprawl, and then just put it right back.

It also feels odd that Administrators or other leader types can't create administration capacity, especially as it feels like a system Byzantine Beuracracy can tie into. Do capital buildings produce some base bureaucrats, or are they entirely a secondary system - trading the unity and research penalties of Empire sprawl for the opportunity cost of those jobs and consumer goods to produce a bureaucrat?

Here's the problem with that -- if your Administrators can create any sort of non-trivial admin capacity, then once again Wide is not being punished, because every planet is going to get its own set of Administrators, and more of them as there are more and more pops. I agree that in theory it makes sense, but it conflicts with the goal of increasing sprawl issues.
 
I have been in recent months trying a min-max to not use districts up or large amounts of space by primary unemployed utopian abundance for science, energy and consumer by slaved xeno clerks and food by xenophage. This is working around the sprawl rules to remain tall - but frankly, a change here will be more realisitic.

My only concern would be with DE ME, perhaps the Civic itself should reduce the effect of sprawl specifically on population, this will encourage tallish plays but with assimilation more of a fun driver.

Hello everyone!
We’re back with yet another dev diary to showcase some more fruits of summer experimentation. As with the previous dev diary, this involved a lot of work carried out during the summer and involves something I’ve wanted to explore for a good while now.

Today we’ll be talking about empire sprawl and administrative capacity. Do note that these changes are still fairly young in their development, so numbers and implementation details may not be representative of what it will look like in the end.

As a background, I can mention that I have a grander idea of where I want to take these mechanics, but it will not all happen at once. These changes aim to mimic state bureaucracy or overhead created by managing a large empire. As a minor aspect I also wanted you to be able to experience the funny absurdity of having a planet entirely dedicated to bureaucracy. The movie Brazil is a great source of inspiration here :)

Empire Sprawl
We wanted to expand on how empire sprawl is used, so that it becomes a more interesting mechanic. The largest change means that pops now increase empire sprawl. Most things in your empire should be increasing empire sprawl to various degrees, to represent the administrative burden they impose.


Empire Sprawl can now be modified from its different sources, and as an example, the Courier Networks expansion tradition will now reduce empire sprawl caused directly by the number of planets and systems. As another example shows, the Harmony traditions finisher now reduces the total empire sprawl caused by all your pops.

We are also able to modify how much empire sprawl each pop contributes, and we’ve added a couple of new species traits that affect it. There are also machine variants of these traits.


We have also increased the penalty for the amount of empire sprawl that exceeds your administrative capacity. The goal is not to make administrative a hard cap, but we want to make it necessary to invest some of your resources into increasing your administrative capacity. More on that later.


The current plan is for machine empires to be more reliant on keeping their administrative capacity in line with their empire sprawl, so machine empires will suffer a much harsher penalty for exceeding their cap. We want machines to feel “centralized” and to perhaps favor a more “tall” playstyle.


Hive Minds, on the other hand, should be more tolerant of a sprawling empire where unmanaged drones are able to fall back on their instincts whenever they cannot maintain a responsive connection to the hive mind. Therefore, hive minds should be more tolerant of a “wide” playstyle.

Administrative Capacity
With all these changes to empire sprawl, what about administrative capacity, I imagine you asking? Well, since empire sprawl is becoming an expanded concept, administrative capacity will naturally be a part of that. Increasing your administrative capacity will now be a part of planning your empire’s economy.


For regular empires, the bureaucrat is a new job that increases your administrative capacity at the cost of consumer goods. This is also a specialist job, and has needs accordingly. Administrators are unchanged, and do not currently affect administrative capacity or bureaucrats.

For machine empires, the coordinators have changed roles from producing unity to now increasing administrative capacity instead, and they are more effective than bureaucrats. A new job called Evaluators now produce unity for machine empires.

Hive Minds currently have the hardest time to produce administrative capacity, but it has been added as a function of the synapse drone job.



Certain sources that previously increased administrative capacity by a static amount now increase is by a percentage amount instead. This doesn’t affect the output of the jobs, but rather increases the total administrative capacity directly.

Summary
Personally I’m very excited for these changes and I’m very much looking forward to taking it to its next step in the future. I hope you enjoyed reading about the changes that will come to Stellaris sometime later this year. As always, we’ll be interested to hear your thoughts.

As mentioned in last week’s dev diary, the schedule for dev diaries will now be bi-weekly, so the next dev diary will be in another 2 weeks.
 
Here's the problem with that -- if your Administrators can create any sort of non-trivial admin capacity, then once again Wide is not being punished, because every planet is going to get its own set of Administrators, and more of them as there are more and more pops. I agree that in theory it makes sense, but it conflicts with the goal of increasing sprawl issues.

Not necessarily. If you increased the capacity usage of a colonized planet to be larger, the first administrator would essentially just revert it back down to 'normal' values (and you get the fluff of a colony being taxing to your empire's administration capacity, before it moves towards more self governance when it upgrades). Higher tier colony buildings would give a bit more, but that then again rewards a few highly populated worlds.

Besides which, these changes 'period' make wide empires even more powerful. Even if we discount how its a nerf towards habitats, ring worlds, and ecumenopoli (considering their current job with habitats, I'm not exactly sure they would handle it competently), the fact that there's now an option for wide empires to 'buy off' their penalties where they didn't before is a direct boon. Taller empires might get some more use out of them (a smaller penalty to buy off than wide), but the opportunity cost of that bureaucrat building and jobs is far more costly to a tall player than wide.
 
What bothers me more than anything else is the lack of response to our concerns. That's what has me on edge the most.
This. Without any warning, the entire game just got shuffled into the deck. And machine empires, for which MANY of their "base builds" are map painters, are now the designated "Tall Empires", which is, well...

I'm not sure the person who had this idea thought it through all the way.

So basically, pretty par for the course.
 
I already dont like that pops increase empire sprawl. I mean you want to maximize pops in a few planets for tall, but at the same time you waste jobs to keep sprawl in check so in the end more pops might not equal actual increase in productivity. Im not a fan of this change.
 
Machine Intelligences have been meant to be good at being "tall" since before Megacorps got their overhaul and unique mechanics. That's why they have things like a bonus to Mining Station output- better utilization of available space is a core tenant of a "tall" build.

I'm not sure why you're so unable to grasp this, or that both Machine Intelligences AND Megacorps can be designed for "tall" play.

Seriously. Go back, re-read the older Dev Diaries. This is all public record.
Maybe you're the one who needs to go back and re-read. Efficiency in making alloys != built to go tall.