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Stellaris Dev Diary #153 - Empire Sprawl & Administrative Capacity

Hello everyone!
We’re back with yet another dev diary to showcase some more fruits of summer experimentation. As with the previous dev diary, this involved a lot of work carried out during the summer and involves something I’ve wanted to explore for a good while now.

Today we’ll be talking about empire sprawl and administrative capacity. Do note that these changes are still fairly young in their development, so numbers and implementation details may not be representative of what it will look like in the end.

As a background, I can mention that I have a grander idea of where I want to take these mechanics, but it will not all happen at once. These changes aim to mimic state bureaucracy or overhead created by managing a large empire. As a minor aspect I also wanted you to be able to experience the funny absurdity of having a planet entirely dedicated to bureaucracy. The movie Brazil is a great source of inspiration here :)

Empire Sprawl
We wanted to expand on how empire sprawl is used, so that it becomes a more interesting mechanic. The largest change means that pops now increase empire sprawl. Most things in your empire should be increasing empire sprawl to various degrees, to represent the administrative burden they impose.

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Empire Sprawl can now be modified from its different sources, and as an example, the Courier Networks expansion tradition will now reduce empire sprawl caused directly by the number of planets and systems. As another example shows, the Harmony traditions finisher now reduces the total empire sprawl caused by all your pops.

We are also able to modify how much empire sprawl each pop contributes, and we’ve added a couple of new species traits that affect it. There are also machine variants of these traits.

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We have also increased the penalty for the amount of empire sprawl that exceeds your administrative capacity. The goal is not to make administrative a hard cap, but we want to make it necessary to invest some of your resources into increasing your administrative capacity. More on that later.

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The current plan is for machine empires to be more reliant on keeping their administrative capacity in line with their empire sprawl, so machine empires will suffer a much harsher penalty for exceeding their cap. We want machines to feel “centralized” and to perhaps favor a more “tall” playstyle.

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Hive Minds, on the other hand, should be more tolerant of a sprawling empire where unmanaged drones are able to fall back on their instincts whenever they cannot maintain a responsive connection to the hive mind. Therefore, hive minds should be more tolerant of a “wide” playstyle.

Administrative Capacity
With all these changes to empire sprawl, what about administrative capacity, I imagine you asking? Well, since empire sprawl is becoming an expanded concept, administrative capacity will naturally be a part of that. Increasing your administrative capacity will now be a part of planning your empire’s economy.

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For regular empires, the bureaucrat is a new job that increases your administrative capacity at the cost of consumer goods. This is also a specialist job, and has needs accordingly. Administrators are unchanged, and do not currently affect administrative capacity or bureaucrats.

For machine empires, the coordinators have changed roles from producing unity to now increasing administrative capacity instead, and they are more effective than bureaucrats. A new job called Evaluators now produce unity for machine empires.

Hive Minds currently have the hardest time to produce administrative capacity, but it has been added as a function of the synapse drone job.

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Certain sources that previously increased administrative capacity by a static amount now increase is by a percentage amount instead. This doesn’t affect the output of the jobs, but rather increases the total administrative capacity directly.

Summary
Personally I’m very excited for these changes and I’m very much looking forward to taking it to its next step in the future. I hope you enjoyed reading about the changes that will come to Stellaris sometime later this year. As always, we’ll be interested to hear your thoughts.

As mentioned in last week’s dev diary, the schedule for dev diaries will now be bi-weekly, so the next dev diary will be in another 2 weeks.
 
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I think making it harder for Machine Empires to get more admin is a great way to balance the fact that they have perfect hab on everything from day 1 with no additional effort. The previously mentioned fact is a huge contributor to why MEs are considered overpowered right now.
 
Finally machine empires get nerfed!


the problem with machine empires isnt their powerr, its the lack of mechanics that force them to use said power, having them to focus on increasing admin "output" is a step in the right direction, but alot more could be added for "ressource" sinks so to speak


right now as it stands machine empires are just really, REALLY boring to play, since you run out of stuff to do really, REALLY quickly
 
the problem with machine empires isnt their powerr, its the lack of mechanics that force them to use said power, having them to focus on increasing admin "output" is a step in the right direction, but alot more could be added for "ressource" sinks so to speak


right now as it stands machine empires are just really, REALLY boring to play, since you run out of stuff to do really, REALLY quickly

I'd argue that this is a problem for all empires.
 
i mean, yes, but you dont need to manage factions, trade, or diplomacy with gestalts, which is a huge part of management thats just gone

(not to mention the "effective" way to play machines is to only use "mono" worlds, 1 ressource productions, to set up machine worlds, AND they only have 3 ressources, while organics have 5)
 
i mean, yes, but you dont need to manage factions, trade, or diplomacy with gestalts, which is a huge part of management thats just gone

(not to mention the "effective" way to play machines is to only use "mono" worlds, 1 ressource productions, to set up machine worlds, AND they only have 3 ressources, while organics have 5)

To be fair, I've never found it necessary to manage factions in a regular empire either. Diplomacy as well since I don't care if other empires like me or not. However, managing trade is one giant headache. I hate to have mines, farms or factories sitting idle, so I am constantly going to sell off bulk amounts of stuff when I max out storage.
 
To be fair, I've never found it necessary to manage factions in a regular empire either. Diplomacy as well since I don't care if other empires like me or not. However, managing trade is one giant headache. I hate to have mines, farms or factories sitting idle, so I am constantly going to sell off bulk amounts of stuff when I max out storage.

i was talking about traderroutes, planet management for machines is suuuuuper boring

you basically jsut set up your.... well, "setup" aka build all your districts out, then you wait for population to grow up and fill the building slots


(also on the note of traderoutes.... thanks paradox, for giving every other empire a way to level up admirals, and have gestalts just sit there.... without piracy to grind.... thanks)
 
i mean, yes, but you dont need to manage factions, trade, or diplomacy with gestalts, which is a huge part of management thats just gone

(not to mention the "effective" way to play machines is to only use "mono" worlds, 1 ressource productions, to set up machine worlds, AND they only have 3 ressources, while organics have 5)

I shoud argue that a friend of mine play Machine for this exact reason, less management, but I really think that having to manage your Empire Sprawl would be an interesting thing to do with Machine empires, I really like this change.
 
Population increasing admin sprawl.. seems rather annoying. You want to increase the viability of tall style of play great. But, this seems like starting a race, giving a person a head start then kneecapping them.
 
Population increasing admin sprawl.. seems rather annoying. You want to increase the viability of tall style of play great. But, this seems like starting a race, giving a person a head start then kneecapping them.
How?
Do you not understand that the People and Systems have very differnet Ratios?
 
How?
Do you not understand that the People and Systems have very differnet Ratios?

i think he didnt read the part about getting a way of increasing admin capacity via jobs
 
i think he didnt read the part about getting a way of increasing admin capacity via jobs
That does make more sense in context, but even less sense in this thread since "Admin Capacity" is literally in the title.
I guess it was too much work for him to read the title?
 
@grekulf will different living standards / citizen rights (utopian needs more than basic subsistence, full citizen needs more than slave) have different admin cap cost?

It would be another act of horrible balancing if this were not the case. As others have said, with pops creating empire sprawl, this will only drive players to even better pops. And what are the best pops? Synths of course because of their insane specialist output (best in the game) aswell as Machine empires because of their incredibly efficient Alloy production!

So unless Paradox is aware of this fact and maybe they are, but the past has shown that they don't give a damn about Machine empires and Synths being stupidly overpowered compared to organics, this might simply push the Machine meta even further than was has been the case since 2.3.
 
So unless Paradox is aware of this fact and maybe they are, but the past has shown that they don't give a damn about Machine empires and Synths being stupidly overpowered compared to organics, this might simply push the Machine meta even further than was has been the case since 2.3.
See DD#160:
Origins are not meant to be balanced against each other, but rather balanced within themselves (as in they don't start in severe resource deficits or "feel broken" by themselves). There are Origins that are "stronger" than other Origins.
Given that balance between origins is deliberately ignored, it goes to reason that other aspects are similarly kept deliberately unbalanced. I want to believe that Paradox is simply unaware how far out of line machine empires are, as the alternative is much worse.
 
See DD#160:

Given that balance between origins is deliberately ignored, it goes to reason that other aspects are similarly kept deliberately unbalanced. I want to believe that Paradox is simply unaware how far out of line machine empires are, as the alternative is much worse.

like i said before, the issue with machine empires isnt their ressource output, but the lack of mechanics to SPEND it on, or "spend" pop-jobs on (thats why i like this admin capacity change, it gives them acutally something to MANAGE for once)


if you only have 3 ressources to worry about, while everyone else has 5 ressources to manage, of COURSE your production of those 3 ressources is MUCH higher than the average empire... thats how machine empires SHOULD work tho...efficiency incarnate.


not having to SPEND or USE this efficiency, thats the issue
 
See DD#160:

Given that balance between origins is deliberately ignored, it goes to reason that other aspects are similarly kept deliberately unbalanced. I want to believe that Paradox is simply unaware how far out of line machine empires are, as the alternative is much worse.

I seriously doubt that. The entire community is constantly complaining about the fact that Machine empires are overpowered since 2.3. WE WARNED PARADOX ABOUT THIS! We saw the patch preview and we asked "Surely you will do some changes to machines, otherwise they will become #1 instantly?" And they did not! They haven't introduced any big nerfs to Machine empires at all. The organic pop growth reduction is nothing, it doesn't effen have any affect on all machine empires and it is not enough to nerf those who do have organics.

However, when 2.2 came out Paradox immediately nerfed Gestalts and especially Hiveminds, the one time Hiveminds were competitive to other empires. And after the entire community has been complaining about how trash Machine empires were back then, Paradox finally acted and turned them into what they are today. But ever since then, the entire game has been taylored to cater to machines.

Nerf habitability? Yes it was overdue, but no nerfs to Machines.
Add relics? Yes, and give Robots the most overpowered ones. Also give the best precursor in the game the most overpowered relic ontop of it, but make it useless for everyone without Robots!

The only explanation I see for this is that Paradox is simply biased towards Machine empires. Nothing else makes sense. They haven't buffed Spiritualists, organics without Robots or Hiveminds in any meaningful way. They haven't even nerfed the 20-30 Synth pop growth, they even increased it thanks to relics.

This has nothing to do with origins. Its ok to announce not all origins will be balanced against each other. But atleast you should acknowledge that you have not a single rational balance designer left. Go out and say "Alright, we called this game strategy game, but we acknowledge that picking Machines puts the player at a way too big advantage to keep calling this a strategy game. We just cater to the casual and roleplay community now and forget about balance alltogether." Or, start listening to the community and fixing the balance problems.
 
The entire community is constantly complaining about the fact that Machine empires are overpowered since 2.3.
Well, you certainly do. I wouldn't go so far as to ascribe your feelings to the whole community. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who just don't care about the over-poweredness of MEs. People like me.
 
Well, you certainly do. I wouldn't go so far as to ascribe your feelings to the whole community. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who just don't care about the over-poweredness of MEs. People like me.
You're free not to care, but they ARE brokenly OP right now. They're strictly more powerful than any other type of empire. That's a problem in a game like Stellaris.

Not every build has to be EQUALLY powerful, but machines are better than any other empire type in basically every way.
 
Its fine for you to not care. I'm not sure if I should envy you because despite the glaring problems you can still be indifferent. However whether you want to acknowledge it or not, Machines are a problem in every game whether its both single and multiplayer. As soon as Machine empires are in the game, the gameplay gets totally changed because of how overpowered they are. All you need is to put one Driven Asssimilator into the game and you will have a midgame/endgame crisis guaranteed every time because it is guaranteed that the overpowered Machine empire will conquer anything around it.
 
As soon as Machine empires are in the game, the gameplay gets totally changed because of how overpowered they are.
If they are overpowered that is very well hidden, because I can not seem to get anywhere with them.