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Stellaris Dev Diary #153 - Empire Sprawl & Administrative Capacity

Hello everyone!
We’re back with yet another dev diary to showcase some more fruits of summer experimentation. As with the previous dev diary, this involved a lot of work carried out during the summer and involves something I’ve wanted to explore for a good while now.

Today we’ll be talking about empire sprawl and administrative capacity. Do note that these changes are still fairly young in their development, so numbers and implementation details may not be representative of what it will look like in the end.

As a background, I can mention that I have a grander idea of where I want to take these mechanics, but it will not all happen at once. These changes aim to mimic state bureaucracy or overhead created by managing a large empire. As a minor aspect I also wanted you to be able to experience the funny absurdity of having a planet entirely dedicated to bureaucracy. The movie Brazil is a great source of inspiration here :)

Empire Sprawl
We wanted to expand on how empire sprawl is used, so that it becomes a more interesting mechanic. The largest change means that pops now increase empire sprawl. Most things in your empire should be increasing empire sprawl to various degrees, to represent the administrative burden they impose.

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Empire Sprawl can now be modified from its different sources, and as an example, the Courier Networks expansion tradition will now reduce empire sprawl caused directly by the number of planets and systems. As another example shows, the Harmony traditions finisher now reduces the total empire sprawl caused by all your pops.

We are also able to modify how much empire sprawl each pop contributes, and we’ve added a couple of new species traits that affect it. There are also machine variants of these traits.

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We have also increased the penalty for the amount of empire sprawl that exceeds your administrative capacity. The goal is not to make administrative a hard cap, but we want to make it necessary to invest some of your resources into increasing your administrative capacity. More on that later.

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The current plan is for machine empires to be more reliant on keeping their administrative capacity in line with their empire sprawl, so machine empires will suffer a much harsher penalty for exceeding their cap. We want machines to feel “centralized” and to perhaps favor a more “tall” playstyle.

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Hive Minds, on the other hand, should be more tolerant of a sprawling empire where unmanaged drones are able to fall back on their instincts whenever they cannot maintain a responsive connection to the hive mind. Therefore, hive minds should be more tolerant of a “wide” playstyle.

Administrative Capacity
With all these changes to empire sprawl, what about administrative capacity, I imagine you asking? Well, since empire sprawl is becoming an expanded concept, administrative capacity will naturally be a part of that. Increasing your administrative capacity will now be a part of planning your empire’s economy.

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For regular empires, the bureaucrat is a new job that increases your administrative capacity at the cost of consumer goods. This is also a specialist job, and has needs accordingly. Administrators are unchanged, and do not currently affect administrative capacity or bureaucrats.

For machine empires, the coordinators have changed roles from producing unity to now increasing administrative capacity instead, and they are more effective than bureaucrats. A new job called Evaluators now produce unity for machine empires.

Hive Minds currently have the hardest time to produce administrative capacity, but it has been added as a function of the synapse drone job.

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Certain sources that previously increased administrative capacity by a static amount now increase is by a percentage amount instead. This doesn’t affect the output of the jobs, but rather increases the total administrative capacity directly.

Summary
Personally I’m very excited for these changes and I’m very much looking forward to taking it to its next step in the future. I hope you enjoyed reading about the changes that will come to Stellaris sometime later this year. As always, we’ll be interested to hear your thoughts.

As mentioned in last week’s dev diary, the schedule for dev diaries will now be bi-weekly, so the next dev diary will be in another 2 weeks.
 
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All I can say is: "I'm glad I already did a Machine Intelligence run with Determined Exterminators where I conquered the entire galaxy and got rid of outdated organic life".
 
Hmmm. Wonder if that should be the case. Aren't drones cut off from the hive mind supposed to act as mindless animals at best, or laying down and dying at worst?

They are not cut off though: the Hive Mind just activates some of their individualism.
Personally, I think this would be a good base for another mechanic: Hive Minds over their capacity for long can get a crisis where some of their population separates into their own Hive Mind or, if it is really high over the limit, some of their population breaks out of the Hive Mind and turns fully individual.
 
Administrators should definitely give (or affect) admin cap, or else you should rename and redefine them.

I presume there will be upgraded admin buildings available through research as well? It looks like the base admin building gives 2 jobs which give 10 admin cap each. So for a planet of 80 pops you'd need 8 bureaucrats to counter the admin cap from the pops alone and if admin offices can't be upgraded then that means you need 4 such buildings. It also means ring-worlds would have to be filled with nothing but admin offices, which wouldn't be much fun I would think.

That aside, I think this is a good direction and I had some thoughts along these lines as well, though getting the tuning right will be "interesting" I'm sure.

With regards to Megacorps, one idea I've had is that instead of a flat bonus to admin cap, they would instead have reduced admin costs for anything inside their core sector and increased admin costs for anything outside their core sector. ie the way to play a Megacorp would be to focus on your core sector and non-core sectors would be more like short-ish term projects until they're established enough to turn into a subsidiary.
 
I do think the "machines tall x hives wide" dichotomy makes sense, but the dev chose his words badly. Think about it this way:

• Like a computer, Machine Empires have the risk of losing efficiency when upscaling — here represented by the administrative cap. They can, of course, grow, but need nodes and suchs to do it efficiently.
• Just like in real life, a huge hive can work and grow without direct administration. A queen does not have to issue commands to every drone of its hive; the drones already do their work instinctively — the "basic instincts" the dev diary was referring to was this, not any sense of individually or deassimilation from the hive.
 
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With regards to Megacorps, one idea I've had is that instead of a flat bonus to admin cap, they would instead have reduced admin costs for anything inside their core sector and increased admin costs for anything outside their core sector. ie the way to play a Megacorp would be to focus on your core sector and non-core sectors would be more like short-ish term projects until they're established enough to turn into a subsidiary.

That sounds good. How about a special trade policy for eg the free traders that turns trade value into admin cap.
 
@jacopus95 - the economy problem is an NP hard assignment problem though. It probably won't be optimised out, because there isn't an algorithm which solves it without performing an exhaustive search. Better to change the economy so it doesn't result in NP hard problems.
 
Cool changes. Will we be able to have bureaucrat species, and a bureaucratic planet specialisation? Vogon Gang

It also does feel odd for Administrators to not give Administration Cap.

Yes, there will be a planet designation.

I agree that it might seem odd that administrators don't give admin cap, but I wanted to keep admin cap straight-forward by having it come from one job. I also see the bureaucrats as more of the pencil-pushers that actually deal with all the administration.

Here is an idea - make system sprawl contribution based on total system output, low output systems contribute to sprawl less, high output systems contribute more.

They will already sort of do that due to every pop increasing sprawl. Generally speaking, more pops = more production = more sprawl.
 
I'm not clear on why this is happening?

I mean, is this going to be fun, does it add additional challenge, does it increase immersion?

It seems like a rather boring addition frankly. Maybe it will work mechanically, but honestly I feel this is going to be a nuisance in the long run and get patched out.

Edit: Just reread the post which promises that this Tues into larger mechanics not discussed yet. Ok, but without context I'm stuck with what I know as per the above. Might be worthwhile explaining the big picture before launching minor additional mechanic explanations.
 
Yes, there will be a planet designation.

I agree that it might seem odd that administrators don't give admin cap, but I wanted to keep admin cap straight-forward by having it come from one job. I also see the bureaucrats as more of the pencil-pushers that actually deal with all the administration.
Again, this will only promote mandatory "one planet for administrators to be able to grow" playstyle as designations encourage specification.
 
I'm really not stoked about this. Seems to me admin cap will simply become yet another resource I have to produce, and it's not like Stellaris has too few resources to juggle at the moment. Except where other resources let me do things, this new resource will let me not suffer penalties. That does not sound exciting in the slightest.

Plus, with the full understanding that the numbers on the screenshots are not final, it seems that the baseline sprawl gain per pop is gonna be 1 point before modifiers. I feel this will quickly make all other sources of sprawl irrelevant in comparison, and will kill the tall vs wide differentiation as a result (playing tall doesn't mean having fewer pops, it means having the same amount of pops huddled on less space).
 
Random thought on the flavor of the Administrator job - maybe just rename it to "Politician"? Should be sufficiently generic for all regular empire types, fits ruler class, does not have the implied bonus to Admin Capacity that Administrators would have.

Also, grekulf, I do hope you're considering the Byzantine Bureaucracy civic in these changes, they really should get a bonus towards bureaucracy... it's in the name if nothing else ;)
 
This is absolutely horrible.

Especially with the numbers presented in the screenshot, i hope you are aware that the way to build a science-focused empire will be to spam as many thinly populated planets as possible to get the maximum number of beaurocrats in.

It makes zero sense and is unintuitive.
 
Lovely, even more Machine Population Traits I won't be able to afford! It's not like they didn't nerf our population's individual value when they reworked our Diplomacy tree and proceed to never compensate us, or that we have less trait points to start than organic populations, or that we don't benefit from certain technologies like expanded synapsic networks, or that we don't have an Ascension path, or...

Okay but seriously, can we please get some additional trait points if you are going to add even more traits we'll barely be able to afford, what with Efficient Processors still costing 3 for a 5% increase?
 
@jacopus95 - the economy problem is an NP hard assignment problem though. It probably won't be optimised out, because there isn't an algorithm which solves it without performing an exhaustive search. Better to change the economy so it doesn't result in NP hard problems.

Thanks for the answer. I see the problem, and i know it might actually be impossible to solve (even though i find the "impossible" hard. Being a programmer myself, a huge part of this job is actually solving problems). But why are the developers not being honest about that? I just want a genuine answer for once. They are behaving like another gaming company i know well: they have a pretty unique game (tanks mmorpg for the other company, space grand strategy/exploration for this one) which is becoming terribly balanced and badly optimized, but because of the game uniqueness they "don't care" about futile things like balancing or performance improvement.

I'm starting to think stellaris is still successful just because there is no alternative, you either change genre or stick to the game's problems. But we all know what happened to simcity, right? We all know what the players chose between simcity and cities skylines, right?

Paradox is a fantastic company, look at what they are doing with imperator: it was a flop, they aknowledged it, now they are working to fix it asap. Look with EU4: The players felt the DLCs were getting lazy and money-grab like, now they are working on a huge feature-rich DLC. Look with stellaris: They took the courage to change their game entirely with 2.0, but why they are ignoring the huge performance issues? They are bringing me to the point of regretting pre 2.0 stellaris! I'm really sad.
 
Lovely, even more Machine Population Traits I won't be able to afford! It's not like they didn't nerf our population's individual value when they reworked our Diplomacy tree and proceed to never compensate us, or that we have less trait points to start than organic populations, or that we don't benefit from certain technologies like expanded synapsic networks, or that we don't have an Ascension path, or...

Okay but seriously, can we please get some additional trait points if you are going to add even more traits we'll barely be able to afford, what with Efficient Processors still costing 3 for a 5% increase?
Machine Empires are the last ones to complain about being weak.

Though the crushing admin cap penalty is bizarre. Like, as others have said, Exterminators and Assimilators paint the map.

Stop trying to make Tall a thing. It'll always be a gimmick relying on your neighbors not crushing you in the first 30 years as you rush science.
 
Please for the love of god don't do this. Keep pops out of it. There are administrator jobs already, we don't need those extra jobs, wasting another building slot. It will ruin tall playstyles, requiring people to build dozens of these adminstative offices to run their empire without these harsh penalties, heck, playing wide will be limited too, since after you conquer a few planets you'll have to take those extra pops in account.

We litteraly have these jobs already in the planet capital building. Then you would have to scrap those and a capital building would lose some of it functionality. Just leave it in the capital building.