Stellaris Dev Diary #155 - Origins

[Blayze]

Fanatic Egalitarian exists already.

"We don't believe in the state."
"But you ARE the state!"

 

[Celulthor]

I have this gut feeling that we will have only 1 Civic at the start of the game in addition to 1 Origin. One of the Origin choices might default to current situation and simply give +1 Civic slot at the start of the game. This would simplify the balancing, which is why I fear it will be the approach the devs will take.

Are my fears unfounded? Do we know whether there is still going to be 2+1 Civics in addition to Origin?

 

[LeSingeAffame]

I have this gut feeling that we will have only 1 Civic at the start of the game in addition to 1 Origin. One of the Origin choices might default to current situation and simply give +1 Civic slot at the start of the game. This would simplify the balancing, which is why I fear it will be the approach the devs will take.

Are my fears unfounded? Do we know whether there is still going to be 2+1 Civics in addition to Origin?

Literally one of the first things you see when reading the dev diary

 

[DrNukeLear]

I have this gut feeling that we will have only 1 Civic at the start of the game in addition to 1 Origin. One of the Origin choices might default to current situation and simply give +1 Civic slot at the start of the game. This would simplify the balancing, which is why I fear it will be the approach the devs will take.

Are my fears unfounded? Do we know whether there is still going to be 2+1 Civics in addition to Origin?

I’m not a dev (or Paradox Employee), but I will give you some assurance. There is no point to changing some civics which are already mutually exclusive to origins and then reducing the number of civics allowed to 1. It would actually reduce player choice as it would be then same as be forced to pick a ‘origin’ civic and another civic.

What I expect personally is to have every nation to pick an origin (with much variety) which is locked throughout the game and then 2 civics which can be swapped out through government reform.

 

[Celulthor]

Literally one of the first things you see when reading the dev diary

Thanks, I sort of autopiloted over that image. Looking more carefully I now see there's also a new civic.

 

[Celulthor]

I’m not a dev (or Paradox Employee), but I will give you some assurance. There is no point to changing some civics which are already mutually exclusive to origins and then reducing the number of civics allowed to 1. It would actually reduce player choice as it would be then same as be forced to pick a ‘origin’ civic and another civic.

What I expect personally is to have every nation to pick an origin (with much variety) which is locked throughout the game and then 2 civics which can be swapped out through government reform.

My concern was that the devs would be wary to introduce power creep by effectively adding a Civic in the form of Origin, and that they would counter it by keeping the effective total unchanged.

 

[DrNukeLear]

My concern was that the devs would be wary to introduce power creep by effectively adding a Civic in the form of Origin, and that they would counter it by keeping the effective total unchanged.

I see your point, but if everyone gets an origin in addition to the two civics and the origins are balanced (roughly) then it improves balance. At the moment if you take a civic like Mechanist you get a boost at the start, but a penalty through the game as you effectively have one civic slot which can be changed and the other gives no effect beyond the start.

 

[morangias]

My concern was that the devs would be wary to introduce power creep by effectively adding a Civic in the form of Origin, and that they would counter it by keeping the effective total unchanged.

It's not really power creep if everyone gets it, is it?

 

[DrFranknfurter]

It's not really power creep if everyone gets it, is it?

It certainly can fit the standard definition of power creep if new DLC adds powerful origins that vastly exceed the current starting power of a race. Then the DLC content would be far superior to Vanilla and constitute power creep.

But really I think there's power creep (and damage to game balance) even if an attempt is made to buff old content to compensate and the newly introduced "default" origin is also fairly powerful (replacing old content can be seen as removing the old and adding powerful new stuff). It's not status-quo if *almost* everything gets a buff and new stuff just gets a slightly bigger one to encourage people to try it.
If nothing else it shortens the timeline of the game, making things that occur after a certain in-game date far weaker in comparison. e.g. everyone starting with extra resources/%modifiers would make a crisis at 2300 or 2400 relatively weaker, even if the crisis was also buffed a little as players will be far stronger by 2300 and 2400 as they can snowball exponentially while other things are of fixed strength. It makes games shorter, easier and less well balanced in general as there will be many unforeseen consequences of early game buffs.

I just hope they have taken time to buff the player-enemies: neutrals, leviathans, fallen and awakened empires and crisis strength and AI to compensate for all the recent additions to the game (ecumenopolis, relics, megastructures and next origins). It'd also be nice to buff more really old content (power creep) like anomaly rewards to fit the new system (mostly science rewards being less than 1 month of research quite quickly which is just sad and shows how much creep has taken place with the economy rework). Although I'd rather there was some nerfs too to slow things down (but they're less popular as it makes some preferred empires and playstyles less viable).

Suggested Nerfs:
Increase tech costs at higher tiers (more time at cruiser-level technology for them to get used)
Decrease player weapon damage values (less 1-shotting everything so quickly)
Increase weapon resource costs (Cool weapons like launchers/kinetic artillery feel too cheap)
Reduce Cybrex relic and secrets effects (and provide alternate effects for spiritualist/materialist only buffing relics like this and the Head of Zarqlan... feels a bit sad when I get any other precursor, especially the massively bugged two new ones)
Reduce pop growth or the cost of pop growth (admin from pops seems to be this, but alloy cost for robot assembly would work too)
Increase the costs of encouraging growth and distributing luxuries (They're cheap enough to be on continuously currently, and as such really need to be replaced by a toggle for the micromanagement)
Add far more, and more expensive blockers to all planets especially relic worlds (to slow growth and make those free relic worlds a little less OP. 2000 energy for 8 scientist jobs and no building slot useage is far better value than building labs, especially with a couple of % reductions from governors and edicts. It wouldn't be so bad if the weapons trails anomaly/free relic world and infinite minor artifacts didn't occur in 100% of my games where I invested even slightly in surveying... I really think we need an alternate source for minor artifacts and then to lower those odds significantly)
Limit the "deal with crime lords" decision to criminal syndicate planets/branch offices only. (make crime important to everyone)
Uncap crime on a planet (so you could have lots and lots of criminals on a world)
Significantly increase cost of Ringworld restoration/creation as I've only ever been limited by influence in the new build and can usually manage 2-3 megastructures at a time while also building a decent fleet.
etc.

But I know nerfs of any kind are rarely popular... so instead I expect a lot of power creep, super new Origins in the next DLC (Start with the diplomacy tree unlocked and a random ally!, Start with 2 worlds!, Start with Fallen empire buildings! etc. though I understand those would indeed be fun and interesting to play with... they'd also ruin any balance and drastically lower the game difficulty on all settings)

 

[DrNukeLear]

It certainly can fit the standard definition of power creep if new DLC adds powerful origins that vastly exceed the current starting power of a race. Then the DLC content would be far superior to Vanilla and constitute power creep.

Erm... some of the civics being converted to Origins are already DLC dependant and as such I don’t think Paradox would remove Life-Seeded from Apocalypse and move it to the base game. I’d actually welcome new Origins being added to existing DLC as a bonus for those who’ve already bought them.

I think later balance changes are inevitable, partly to reduce power creep. But as long as that creep is evenly spread I don’t see a problem. The biggest change Origins will bring is hopefully a greater texture to the game. When we find a Determined Exterminator, Fanatic Purifier or a Criminal Syndicate next to us near game start it forces us to play differently, more variety is better imho.

 

[donofwar3]

Will they be addressing sectors in this new upcoming patch or DLC. I also would like them to redesign the ground combat just infantry is pretty lazy adding more will give it some flavor. Even more ships type to the game will be nice. Or choosing a starting position on the Galaxy map.

 

[korodikrisz]

Or choosing a starting position on the Galaxy map.

To what end?

 

[DrFranknfurter]

Erm... some of the civics being converted to Origins are already DLC dependant and as such I don’t think Paradox would remove Life-Seeded from Apocalypse and move it to the base game. I’d actually welcome new Origins being added to existing DLC as a bonus for those who’ve already bought them.

I think later balance changes are inevitable, partly to reduce power creep. But as long as that creep is evenly spread I don’t see a problem. The biggest change Origins will bring is hopefully a greater texture to the game. When we find a Determined Exterminator, Fanatic Purifier or a Criminal Syndicate next to us near game start it forces us to play differently, more variety is better imho.

I never intended to suggest that old DLC content will be made free... I don't mind that if they want to do it but it wasn't what I was suggesting in any way shape or form. Also I assume the examples you mentioned will still be civics and not origins, but yes those unique civics do make the game more interesting and I think special origins will do the same.

Anyway, I assumed that there would some new "default" origins for those that don't have life-seeded:
"Prosperous Union, Remnants and Scions".
Then the current DLC added origins converted from civics into origins: "Mechanists, Post-Apocalyptic, Life-Seeded and Syncretic Evolution"
Then the [REDACTED] origins linked to the next DLCs they release (16 total... so maybe 8ish added between the two(?) DLC coming up.

My issue is that:
1. The "default" origins probably have bonuses attached (be very boring if it was just flavour text), so increases early game power levels (power creep)
2. New future DLC (Lithoids/Federations etc.) adding origins have to be better than the default (or Life-Seeded) to encourage people to try them so will cause power-creep.
3. Some nerfs in places I mentioned could help curb power-creep getting too excessive and harming the pace and balance of the game, especially the end-game crisis which is currently too weak even on higher settings. Although power-creep here would just be unlocking the crisis slider and letting it go up to x50 or other extreme numbers. (Power-creep being the numbers just getting bigger and bigger and any overlooked features being left behind and being relatively weak - e.g. Hive Mind civics currently not comparing to Machine Civics due to power creep).

 

[VoodooDog]

so how about a "normal" origin just through evolution?

 

[nweismuller]

so how about a "normal" origin just through evolution?

Prosperous Unification, at the very least, almost certainly covers this. There may be more that apply.

 

[Turnil]

from the Stellaris expansion teaser.

Origins: Each empire has a story that shapes its path. Give your civilization deeper roots with the new system of Origins. By choosing an Origin, players can flesh out their empire’s background and alter its starting conditions. Whether it’s Void Dwellers who have abandoned their homeworld to live in perpetual orbit, or a society that worships and protects a powerful Tree of Life, you can lay the groundwork wisely for the seeds of your empire.

 

[Pale Blue]

from the Stellaris expansion teaser.

Origins: Each empire has a story that shapes its path. Give your civilization deeper roots with the new system of Origins. By choosing an Origin, players can flesh out their empire’s background and alter its starting conditions. Whether it’s Void Dwellers who have abandoned their homeworld to live in perpetual orbit, or a society that worships and protects a powerful Tree of Life, you can lay the groundwork wisely for the seeds of your empire.

I am wondering if the marauders, the khanate and its successor state and the enclaves might be changed to be more empire like that uses this new void dweller origin and the stuff that is created for it.

 

[InsanePrimate]

I am wondering whether you guys have ANY plans AT ALL to make your game at least somewhat playable performance wise in the foreseeable future? As it stands... the game is simply unplayable... my rig is capable of running Witcher 3 on max settings at 80 Fps on 1080p but Stellaris drops that to 10 Fps... how is that even possible and how can you possibly justify selling DLC for a game that is basically UNPLAYABLE?

 

[LeSingeAffame]

I am wondering whether you guys have ANY plans AT ALL to make your game at least somewhat playable performance wise in the foreseeable future? As it stands... the game is simply unplayable... my rig is capable of running Witcher 3 on max settings at 80 Fps on 1080p but Stellaris drops that to 10 Fps... how is that even possible and how can you possibly justify selling DLC for a game that is basically UNPLAYABLE?

The 2.4 patch seemed to help a lot of people (well for those who could launch the game that is) who experienced severe lags

 

[monkeypunch87]

I am wondering whether you guys have ANY plans AT ALL to make your game at least somewhat playable performance wise in the foreseeable future? As it stands... the game is simply unplayable... my rig is capable of running Witcher 3 on max settings at 80 Fps on 1080p but Stellaris drops that to 10 Fps... how is that even possible and how can you possibly justify selling DLC for a game that is basically UNPLAYABLE?

It is not. A little slow sometimes, but not unplayable.