Stellaris Dev Diary #158 - Federation rework

[shadowclasper]

There are currently two different challenge types:
Psionic Battle lets psionic pops battle it out over which empire should be president.
Arena Combat lets the rulers of competing empires battle it out. Certain traits for the ruler (both species and ruler-specific) will influence how large chance the ruler has at winning. The Chosen will of course be very hard to beat.

I think there should be 3 more types of challenge.

Lethal Fleet Combat. Where the president declares an 'arena' system in his own territory, and all members must send one fleet there to participate. The player must select a fleet or forfeit when the challenge is called and the challenge begins when all members have arrived at the arena. In this, you risk your ships lives, and many empires might refuse to do so.

Fleet Games is the second. The same system as above, but instead the battle is 'non lethal' so vessels will always have a 100% escape chance regardless of their normal chances. In turn they will have a REDICULOUSLY low chance of being destroyed or damaged due to retreating.

Trial of Warriors would be the last one, which I take from the Battletech Clans system. In it, you deploy armies to the capital world of the current president. There should be some kind of limit on how many armies you can deploy, probably no more than 20 or so. All challengers deploy armies to the planet and fight it out against one another.

 

[Not Not]

Is there no elective succession type?
Or is diplomatic weight an election based on that?
Would like to see a federation elect it's ruler and was suprised to not see it here.

 

[DanielPrates]

Next week we will be talking about

We are back into the weekly DD program then?

 

[Jorlem]

Free and automatic research sharing!

Any chance research sharing is going to get a change in order to actually be useful for players? Player Materialists are likely to be rather ahead on tech, and research sharing doesn't have any real upside unless you are researching a tech a partner already has.

An empire needs to be a Megacorporation or have the Merchant Guilds civic in order to be able to suggest to form a trade league.

What happens if you form this Federation, then swap out the Merchant Guilds civic for something else?

 

[DrFranknfurter]

I like the massively powerful bonus of the trade federation (that alone would tempt me to join a federation) the others much less so... they seem to just be repackaging what we already have (e.g. research treaties rather than a new bonus to research). Also in my experience having allies, or even subjects is often extremely annoying - my last total war against a fallen empire had systems going to my nearby (suicidal) vassal rather than my nearby gateway system unless I took systems in a very careful order... and other minor annoyances like that. So I feel quite wary of the federation changes in general.

Anyway, even if I'm nervous of federations, these are the things that seem lacking:
1. Federation Levels feels very gamified. Could do with a word to describe the alliance level, a building to symbolize it, a button or event when you go up a level. Compare how relations aren't just +78 but are also represented by descriptions like "Cordial". So a name for each tier of alliance would be nice, a federation capital with associated building even better. (Much like having tier 1/2/3 laser sounds more like unfinished code than having Red/Blue/Gamma, or Tier 1/2/3/4 Colony sounds worse than Reassembled Ship Shelter/Planetary Administration/Planetary Capital/System Capital-Complex). It just makes it look... unfinished and gamified in my eyes. I do like the idea of alliances growing stronger over time... not sure about the XP and levels mechanic though, but that's mostly just how it's presented.

2. Hives and Machines. Neither get a fun unique federation sadly. I can imagine them having a unique set of bonuses with limits on who can join, a different set of laws available, the federation gaining XP in a different way than based on ethics obviously (naval capacity use for hives, research output for machines or co-ordinator/synapse drones, or from joint military exercises etc.). Perhaps with special wargoals to convert other races into fellow hives or to integrate members into a single unified empire with smaller 1-planet remains (like the Star Trek New Horizons mod's implementation of the Federation). Lots of options... it feels a bit sad they're ignored when I could imagine 4 unique Federation types for just machines alone based on their special starting civics.

3. Xenophobes. Would be nice if they had a special federation type. I can imagine a few possibilities - with most interfering laws on other empires forbidden, and a penalty to the trust/cohesion growth but with some powerful defensive bonuses (more and stronger platforms etc.), OR high starting bonus but much lower cap so it's easier for them to quickly form and abandon federations when facing mutual threats but the federations will never be as strong and can fall apart more easily. Lots of options...

4. Spiritualists. Would be nice to have a federation type that could pass laws to change the civics of members, preferably while also restricting the AI use of all federation members. e.g. members must have 1 spiritualist requirement civic or switch to one on joining, must outlaw AI, cannot use robotics etc. Or for bonuses around the shroud, ethics attraction, cohesion from spiritualist pops, edict cost and duration, new edicts, new shroud options, new bonuses from spiritualist factions or pops etc.

5. Egalitarians. Would be nice if they had the opposite of normal federations in terms of bonuses from diversity - the more different empire types, civics and ethics the more cohesion they gain. Different starting laws (random/rotating leaders being the default selections and things like that). Special bonuses that reward diversity within each member (like +3% bonus to specialist output per happy faction, -2% per unhappy faction)... lots of untapped potential here.

6. Fallen Empire/Khan Federation types. Would be nice to convert the crisis events to utilize a new federation system (if it works well). With the old penalties to Satrapy/Dominion/Signatory/Thrall/Satellite as negative member perks. Mostly so there could be some new President perks for Khans and Fallen empires to make them a lot stronger. Could make them a little more threatening and interesting at the same time. (Also I hate having two competing systems doing the same things, especially when placing the two systems side-by-side highlighting the failings of the other approach - like the two precursor approaches, one using anomalies and the other using dig-sites... the dig-sites failing to spawn and lacking the clear notification and tracker in the event log that the old precursors have while the old precursors lack the permanent dig-sites and lore the new system has - you notice the worst of both when you don't merge and update them to use the same system).

7. Defender of the Galaxy / Ascension Perk-locked Federation types. Unique Federations formed under special circumstances should have a special set of bonuses with lower entry requirements, perhaps requiring a crisis first to unite people. You could even have laws unlocked by tech or perks, like mega-engineering allowing Gateways to be built in allied space or for the benefit of allies - overpowered once you turn on them to take them back but fun nonetheless.

8. Merging Federations. Hoping it'll be announced later, but having a way for two federations to unite/break apart would be great. (and removing the annoying -1000 modifier to pretty much all diplomacy while in a federation stopping you from getting protectorates/allies when those little 1-planet empires join forces and snub the rest of the universe).

9. Changing Federation Type. It'd be nice for a federation to evolve and change over time... e.g. if a militant empire takes over the presidency of a Trade Federation they could pass a law to change to a different type, or after you invite a Trade empire you could switch to the more powerful Federation type.

 

[AlleyTheToaster]

This is what I was waiting for tbh

 

[semisweet]

Honestly, while it's a big upgrade over the current state, I think the layout of the new federations could have been much better by allowing for more freedom. I would have liked to see just one federation type and instead have some sort of "federation civics" to determine the differences. These would represent the federation constitution and laws. They could be voted on in a way similar to what the devs proposed for galactic community resolutions, with empires proposing them and then voting to ratify them. Perhaps they would need to be unanimous for the initial generic federation.

A level 1 federation would allow for the peace treaty federation civic, and each additional level would allow for another to be added. Most federation civics would come with a cohesion penalty. The penalty could be reduced or negated based on member ethics, authority, policies, etc. This cohesion penalty would mean that eventually you would reach a limit as to how many federation civics you could have. Federations that have members that are better aligned would be able to adopt more civics.

The generic federation would be very basic. It would simply have the peace treaty civic which gives automatic free non-aggression pacts between all members. Federation members could still negotiate normal diplomacy with other empires outside of the federation, including wars, non-aggression pacts, defense agreements, etc. This system would allow a vast range of federations to exist. Want to focus on economics rather than war? You can do that. Want to focus on war rather than economics? You can also do that. Want to do both? You can do that. Here are some examples of what federation civics could be:

Mutual defense: A federation war will be started against anyone who attacks a federation member. This essentially acts as a "free defensive pact between federation members."

Free trade: Automatic free commercial pacts between all members.

Civilian technology cooperation: Automatic free civilian research agreement between all members. Similar to a research agreement but does not cover military technology such as weapons, ship types, ship shields, ship armor, navy, armies, etc.

Research cooperation: Automatic free military and civilian research agreements between all members.

Shared intelligence: Automatic free shared vision between all members.

Open borders: Automatic free migration treaties between all members.

Trade league: Trade policy is change to "Trade League", which combines the bonuses of all trade policies. All commercial pacts with non federation members are cancelled. New commercial pacts must be approved by the federation and will apply to all federation members.

AI Ban: All federation members must use the AI outlawed policy.

Religious State: Large spiritualist attraction bonus. Federation unity bonus.

Secular State: Large materialist attraction bonus. Federation research bonus.

Federation Campaigns: Members may propose a federation war or propose that the federation join an ongoing war, which if passed brings every member into the war. Normal wars may still be declared, but they will not come with the support of the federation. All member defensive pacts, non-aggression agreements, and independence guarantees are cancelled. Future such agreements must be approved by the federation and will apply to all federation members.

Federation Capital: A planet is nominated to become a federation capital. Federation capitals allow for special buildings that give bonuses to the entire federation. Having the capital in your empire gives you much more diplomatic weight.

Executive Powers: The federation has a president, which has some unilateral powers. This opens up some federation edicts and other federation civics. The federation president is chosen every 5 years in accordance to diplomatic weight.

Federation Fleet: A federation fleet is created. The federation fleet is controlled by the federation president. It will be hostile to any empire that there is a federation war against.

Hegemony: Members need the presidents approval to leave. The president is granted three times as much voting weight.

Strength is Power: More weight is given to stronger empires in determining the federation presidents.

Consistent Leadership: Empires stay president for +5 years.

Executive General: The president has the sole authority to declare aggressive federation wars.

There are endless ideas you could come up with here, so I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Duuk]

I guess I'm disappointed because it feels incomplete. The federation types are missing several key playstyles and ethical builds, and and GLARINGLY missing one that has an actual succession type ALREADY BUILT IN.

Every thing about it missing the pieces that match the styles that go with it. Succession types don't match federation types. Not enough options to mix-and-match. It's a half-baked expansion at best.

Sorry Paradox. A swing and a miss. I'll pass and wait for the discount sale, which will give time for the patches to catch up.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I guess I'm disappointed because it feels incomplete. The federation types are missing several key playstyles and ethical builds, and and GLARINGLY missing one that has an actual succession type ALREADY BUILT IN.

Sorry Paradox. A swing and a miss. I'll pass and wait for the discount sale, which will give time for the patches to catch up.

I strongly disagree. Not every Ethic needs a matching Federation type, and "Spiritualist" Federations have no clear mechanical hook because Spiritualists are not automatically Psionic, too. "Psionic Combat" is thus a high-level option for Federations in general if some of their members are Psionic Ascension empires.

 

[Duuk]

I strongly disagree. Not every Ethic needs a matching Federation type, and "Spiritualist" Federations have no clear mechanical hook because Spiritualists are not automatically Psionic, too. "Psionic Combat" is thus a high-level option for Federations in general if some of their members are Psionic Ascension empires.

Then why don't research societies, whose entire motif is academic research and debate, have an election mechanic about "Breakthrough Science Challenge" or "Federation Prize Challenge"? Why have a psionic challenge if there is NO SPIRITUALIST THEMED FEDERATION?

And if you're going to go to the hassle of having SOME federations that are ethics locked, common sense says you should do at LEAST opposing federation locks. If a materialist federation exists, then a spiritualist federation should exist SO A NATURAL RIVALRY CAN EXIST, if a militarist federation can exist THEN A PACIFIST PEACEFUL UNION should exist that would oppose them.

This is a Batman movie where Batman just walks around all day punching bank robbers. Ok fine, that's ok... but where is the Joker?

 

[PalmettoExplorer14]

Honestly, while it's a big upgrade over the current state, I think the layout of the new federations could have been much better by allowing for more freedom. I would have liked to see just one federation type and instead have some sort of "federation civics" to determine the differences. These would represent the federation constitution and laws. They could be voted on in a way similar to what the devs proposed for galactic community resolutions, with empires proposing them and then voting to ratify them. Perhaps they would need to be unanimous for the initial generic federation.

A level 1 federation would allow for the peace treaty federation civic, and each additional level would allow for another to be added. Most federation civics would come with a cohesion penalty. The penalty could be reduced or negated based on member ethics, authority, policies, etc. This cohesion penalty would mean that eventually you would reach a limit as to how many federation civics you could have. Federations that have members that are better aligned would be able to adopt more civics.

The generic federation would be very basic. It would simply have the peace treaty civic which gives automatic free non-aggression pacts between all members. Federation members could still negotiate normal diplomacy with other empires outside of the federation. This system would allow a vast range of federations to exist. Want to focus on economics rather than war? You can do that. Want to focus on war rather than economics? You can also do that. Want to do both? You can do that. Here are some examples of what federation civics could be:

Mutual defense: A federation war will be started against anyone who attacks a federation member. This essentially acts as a "free defensive pact between federation members."

Free trade: Automatic free commercial pacts between all members.

Civilian technology cooperation: Automatic free civilian research agreement between all members. Similar to a research agreement but does not cover military technology such as weapons, ship types, ship shields, ship armor, navy, armies, etc.

Research cooperation: Automatic free military and civilian research agreements between all members.

Shared intelligence: Automatic free shared vision between all members.

Open borders: Automatic free migration treaties between all members.

Trade league: Trade policy is change to "Trade League", which combines the bonuses of all trade policies. All commercial pacts with non federation members are cancelled. New commercial pacts must be approved by the federation and will apply to all federation members.

AI Ban: All federation members must use the AI outlawed policy.

Religious State: Large spiritualist attraction bonus. Federation unity bonus.

Secular State: Large materialist attraction bonus. Federation research bonus.

Federation Campaigns: Members may propose a federation war or propose that the federation join an ongoing war, which if passed brings every member into the war. Normal wars may still be declared, but they will not come with the support of the federation. All member defensive pacts, non-aggression agreements, and independence guarantees are cancelled. Future such agreements must be approved by the federation and will apply to all federation members.

Federation Capital: A planet is nominated to become a federation capital. Federation capitals allow for special buildings that give bonuses to the entire federation.

Executive Powers: The federation has a president, which has some unilateral powers. This opens up some federation edicts and other federation civics. The federation president is chosen every 5 years in accordance to diplomatic weight.

Federation Fleet: A federation fleet is created. The federation fleet is controlled by the federation president. It will be hostile to any empire that there is a federation war against.

Hegemony: Members need the presidents approval to leave. The president is granted three times as much voting weight.

Strength is Power: More weight is given to stronger empires in determining the federation presidents.

Consistent Leadership: Empires stay president for +5 years.

Executive General: The president has the sole authority to declare aggressive federation wars.

There are endless ideas you could come up with here, so I'll just leave it at that.

I love all of these ideas!

 

[TheDungen]

Well it's cool but I would really like to see some HRE type unification mechanic. Or did I just miss it?

 

[Zandraak]

Does the Criminal Corporation will join federation?

 

[ashbery76]

Looks great I just wish they did'nt budget the visuals all the time.I want a senate view with the members heads sitting on the seats and not a generic 101 picture.

 

[Grimgor]

Does the Criminal Corporation will join federation?

Onlly DE and Inward Perfection are now barred from entering a federation so yes, criminal syndicates can join federations now.

 

[WilliamTheIII]

Can you join multiple federation types? It totally makes sense for a nation to be apart of a trade league while at the same time being apart of a military league (almost like being in OPEC and NATO for example). However, to keep this from being insanely overpowered it could be that you can only be a full member of one federation. For all the other ones, you can be an associate that gives you lesser versions of the bonuses and boosts when making diplomatic agreements with members of that federation.

 

[Methone]

Onlly DE and Inward Perfection are now barred from entering a federation so yes, criminal syndicates can join federations now.

DE?

 

[Ixalmaris]

That sounds very EU4 (HRE) and CK2 like. Not that I complain. Copy what works.

One question though, what point is there to have normal vassals when you own a hegemony?

 

[Dlin369]

Then why don't research societies, whose entire motif is academic research and debate, have an election mechanic about "Breakthrough Science Challenge" or "Federation Prize Challenge"? Why have a psionic challenge if there is NO SPIRITUALIST THEMED FEDERATION?

And if you're going to go to the hassle of having SOME federations that are ethics locked, common sense says you should do at LEAST opposing federation locks. If a materialist federation exists, then a spiritualist federation should exist SO A NATURAL RIVALRY CAN EXIST, if a militarist federation can exist THEN A PACIFIST PEACEFUL UNION should exist that would oppose them.

This is a Batman movie where Batman just walks around all day punching bank robbers. Ok fine, that's ok... but where is the Joker?

you can have a federation of spiritualistic empires without having special mechanics for it - if anything the Galactic Union (for a United collection of spiritualists) or Hegemony (like a papacy) or a militaristic alliance (like crusader states) cover most spiritualist type federations.

I feel people are getting too caught up in the prerequisites for founding a specialized federation (which isn’t the same as joining either) - a military alliances and science collaborations are more of a function than an ethic, as are hegemony and trade leagues. In Stellaris you get 3 ethics points, odds are you have access to at least one of the special federations

 

[NilsFabian]

That DLC is going to be awesome. Can't wait to get it.

Are you planning to have different Backgrounds for the Federations? At least the Martial and Hegemony types should get a more unique look than boring Conference Room 3